Healing IS TOTALLY ouf of control

[Astarica]

Just pointing out that taunts only reduce by 30%. The other 50% still needs to be healed, as it goes straight to the tank, unless the healer wants his tank to go down and therefore lose his guard. And taunts. And any other CC the tank is putting out.

 

Not all of that 80% damage reduction stack is "free" to the healer. And taunts have a cooldown, so most of the time it's 50% with that 50% going to the tank anyway.

 

Because AE heals and/or HoTs are easy to maintain you can basically consider all the damage that went to the tank as 'free' in most cases. It probably didn't help that 2.0 made some AE heals cast even faster (Salvation) and HoTs even cheaper (Kolto probe).

[BraveSirRobin]

After running into another talentless premade that ran 3 healers it finally dawned on me that although healing is in general overpowered, the root of the problem is the Operative, and in fact they're responsible for Sorcerers being overpowered. Let me explain.

 

Even before 2.0 it's pretty clear that Operative healing is ez-mode. All you do is run around like a headless chicken spamming your 3 instant heals and you'll generally be just fine. The only weakness of an Operative is that they lack thoroughput. That is, sometime you could just say rather than chasing this Operative running in a circle spamming Adernaline Probe all day, what if we just focus fire another juicy target (say, the other healer that isn't an Operative), knowing that the Operative is likely only going to do Adernalin Probe spam? Since one of their cast heal was useless pre 2.0, they only spell they can cast is standard 2.0s heal and it's fairly easy to interrupt it. The end result is that a freecasting Operative and an Operative always on the move usually have identical HPS, so it was actually okay to ignore them sometime and focus fire someone else.

 

Now in 2.0, Operative healing somehow got made even easier (the TA consuming heal actually heals for something, even cheaper HoTs). So the first logical thing to do is if 1 Operative spamming Adernalin Probe isn't enough, you try running two of them. But wait, there's no reason to stop here. If you could put god mode on a healer, it's almost certain that the Sorc will be top in terms of overall healing done because the class appears to be designed to be easiest healer to kill which necessarily means they must have the greatest output. Sorcs got quite a few survivality improvement, but more importantly now with 1 or even 2 Operative pumping Adernaline Probes on you, the chance of dying is greatly reduced. No the other team can't stop the Operatives because Adernaline Probe spam is unstoppable outside of hard CCs. You also have to actually respect the Operative's casted heals (even though they're still rarely cast) so the end result is that the normally squishy healer (Sorc) gets propped up by Operatives and you end up with an unkillable healer team.

 

Note that Commando benefits nothing from this because Commando is designed to be self-sufficeint and tanky. Their heals are always relatively easy to interrupt but they make that up by being pretty tough to kill. Well if you can keep up a Sorc alive there's no reason to use a Commando, because the Sorc will definitely heal for more overall.

 

Looking back at my games, the games where you only have a Sorc healer(s) is controllable. I think they're still overpowered, but it's within an acceptable the limit the same way some DPS classes are always going to be overpowered relative to other DPS classes. As long as you're sure there isn't someone pumping Adernaline Probes on that Sorc, you can eventually kill him once you located all the other potential sources of healing, as every Sorc/Commando can be neutralized in some way and it's only a matter of time. It might take too long for the average PUG to be comfortable with, but it's doable.

 

But once you throw in Operative in there, everything falls apart. Half of the time you won't even realize there was someone pumping Adernaline Probes since there's no cast bar on that, and even when you realize this is happening, you still can't stop it. You can't DPS the non Op healer through Adrenaline Probe spam, and you can't DPS the Op to begin with if he's any good.

 

LOL. Stop posting man. If you can't beat someone only casting KOLTO PROBE or SLOW RELEASE MEDPACK then you need to learn to play. Or are you talking about SURGICAL PROBE or EMERGENCY MEDPACK?

 

If you don't take the time to know other classes, please don't post stuff about how "OP" they are.

[Astarica]

LOL. Stop posting man. If you can't beat someone only casting KOLTO PROBE or SLOW RELEASE MEDPACK then you need to learn to play. Or are you talking about SURGICAL PROBE or EMERGENCY MEDPACK?

 

If you don't take the time to know other classes, please don't post stuff about how "OP" they are.

 

I notice this game is quite ideal for people who have no point to make and need to pick on semantics. Between Gunslinger and Sniper there have about 8 synonyms for 'shoot stuff' and even if one of them is your main it's unlikely you know the exact counterpart of your 'shoot stuff' ability in the mirror class. Likewise all the healing ability in this game seems to be named by taking an ad lib with the word 'heal', 'dark', 'scan', and 'kolto'.

[Daskillz]

No. Because from a lore standpoint, it's completely ludicrous that a Jedi Knight or a Sith Warrior wouldn't be able to kill a combat medic.

 

I do understand that player characters (including healers of all stripes) are exceptional in every way, but when the most deadly combatants in the galaxy (Jedi/Sith) can have their lightsaber, telekinetic, and Force Lightning attacks just ignored by a guy with a few cybernetic implants and high-grade pharmaceuticals, it's just ridiculous.

 

I understand that PvP =/= Lore; I get that. But don't you think it's ridiculous that a single DPS has to be at the top of his game and execute every maneuver flawlessly in order to stand a chance of beating the slowest and laziest healer?

 

The balance in PvP is just off and needs to be fixed.

 

Are you serious dude? really gonna bring this arguement here.

 

Ok so every time I shoot a "Lightsaber" user and they don't deflect it that means they should start bleeding out and if I crit it should be instant kill because it is a head shot .

 

If you want to argue that healing is overpowered fine but don't bring retarded arguments in here. Reading some of these posts make me wonder how you guys remember to breath in the morning.

 

A DPS that is on top of their game will beat a bad healer no problem.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Daskillz

[Astarica]

A DPS that is on top of their game will beat a bad healer no problem.

 

And why shouldn't a bad DPS beat a bad healer at least some of the time?

[Daskillz]

And why shouldn't a bad DPS beat a bad healer at least some of the time?

 

Because Bad dps tend to be people who pull below 300k damage in a full Voidstar then come to these forums and complain about how everything needs to be nerfed.

[MotorCityMan]

If it was any other MMO I would only slightly agree, but in a game where guard and taunts exist capable of reducing damage by 80% on top of the healers CD's and heals...No just no. Healers should be easily killed solo. DPS need healers to keep them up so they can keep DPSing just as healers need tanks to keep on healing.

 

So if dps need healers to keep them up, which dps should be easily killed solo? And who is going to be doing the killing?

[MotorCityMan]

And why shouldn't a bad DPS beat a bad healer at least some of the time?

 

Well why shouldn't a bad healer be able to beat a bad dps at least some of the time?

[dcgregorya]

Because Bad dps tend to be people who pull below 300k damage in a full Voidstar then come to these forums and complain about how everything needs to be nerfed.

 

It's broken and it will get nerfed. And this is coming from someone who does put up 500k-800k damage every match with every class I play, and 700k-1mil doing heals. It creates boring, cheesy matches that aren't any fun except if all you care about is the numbers at the end.

[Daskillz]

It's broken and it will get nerfed. And this is coming from someone who does put up 500k-800k damage every match with every class I play, and 700k-1mil doing heals. It creates boring, cheesy matches that aren't any fun except if all you care about is the numbers at the end.

 

I'm not doubting that it will get nerfed, the Vanguards/Powertech 2.0 terrible dps is the product of a bunch of bads crying. Just pointing out that majority of the crap on this forums is just awful players crying instead of stopping to see if there is something they could do to improve.

[MotorCityMan]

It's broken and it will get nerfed. And this is coming from someone who does put up 500k-800k damage every match with every class I play, and 700k-1mil doing heals. It creates boring, cheesy matches that aren't any fun except if all you care about is the numbers at the end.

 

More QQ from derp dps bads who want mmo pvp to play like their xbox shooter.

[dcgregorya]

More QQ from derp dps bads who want mmo pvp to play like their xbox shooter.

 

Uh huh, more smack talk. Real tough guy.

Edited May 20, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Astarica]

People need to stop with this implicit assumption that healers are actually good. Most healers are bad, just like most DPS are bad too. The reason why 2.0 had a lot of buffs for Sorc/Op is that most healers are bad enough that they need the extra help. Before 2.0 bad healer versus bad DPS is pretty close to even. Now it is decisively in favor of the bad healers and it's not hard to see why looking at the upgrades healers got in 2.0, but of course the bad healers didn't think they're now doing better because they're on the upside of balance.

[dcgregorya]

People need to stop with this implicit assumption that healers are actually good. Most healers are bad, just like most DPS are bad too. The reason why 2.0 had a lot of buffs for Sorc/Op is that most healers are bad enough that they need the extra help. Before 2.0 bad healer versus bad DPS is pretty close to even. Now it is decisively in favor of the bad healers and it's not hard to see why looking at the upgrades healers got in 2.0, but of course the bad healers didn't think they're now doing better because they're on the upside of balance.

 

Nope, clearly they are all pro's and it's totally normal for a healer to get 1-2 mil healing every game. Can't possibly be that's its broken. Surely that cannot be it. Must be full bads every single game, even games where the healers lose and still put up a mil in heals.

[Aelaias]

People need to stop with this implicit assumption that healers are actually good. Most healers are bad, just like most DPS are bad too. The reason why 2.0 had a lot of buffs for Sorc/Op is that most healers are bad enough that they need the extra help. Before 2.0 bad healer versus bad DPS is pretty close to even. Now it is decisively in favor of the bad healers and it's not hard to see why looking at the upgrades healers got in 2.0, but of course the bad healers didn't think they're now doing better because they're on the upside of balance.

 

Who gives a crap if most are bad. It take's a tag team of at least 2 supremely competent people ccing and dpsing to bring down a single good operative. If there is more than one, well good luck with that. Operative healers are RIDICULOUS. Personally I have no intention of watching this go on much longer.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Aelaias

[MotorCityMan]

Nope, clearly they are all pro's and it's totally normal for a healer to get 1-2 mil healing every game. Can't possibly be that's its broken. Surely that cannot be it. Must be full bads every single game, even games where the healers lose and still put up a mil in heals.

 

And all the dps putting up 1-2 mil? Must mean they are broken too.

 

Just as a side note, some of you might find the WoW world championship arena (3 vs 3) pvp vidoes interesting. Some can last 45 mins with no one dying. I guess that is cheesy and boring too eh? Not real pvp? Not like xbox? Pew Pew? Broken?

Edited May 20, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[dcgregorya]

And all the dps putting up 1-2 mil? Must mean they are broken too.

 

For every DPS putting out 1m, you're going to have a healer putting out 1.5m or more. You're never going to see 1mil in damage or heals in a game that's well balanced and people are actually dying and fighting back and forth. For whatever reasons, healers feel like their job is to be immortal, or that the game is only balanced when no one dies...

 

This is PVP, not PVE, people are supposed to die, otherwise the fight is boring and may as well be beating up on training dummies.

Edited May 20, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Macroeconomics]

For every DPS putting out 1m, you're going to have a healer putting out 1.5m or more. ... This is PVP, not PVE, people are supposed to die, otherwise the fight is boring and may as well be beating up on training dummies.

 

Couldn't agree more. In a match with high skill players, 1 million output by dps means the healers are outputting about 1.5 million. Healing right now dominates dps. In 1.7 the gap was only about 25%. It has about doubled to 50% in 2.0. Really the only dps subclass that has a chance to keep within shouting range of healers is Jugg/Guardian Rage/Focus. Which makes it ironic that other dps subclasses often ask that they get nerfed. Really the other dps subclasses need to get buffed to Rage/Focus levels.

[dcgregorya]

Couldn't agree more. In a match with high skill players, 1 million output by dps means the healers are outputting about 1.5 million. Healing right now dominates dps. In 1.7 the gap was only about 25%. It has about doubled to 50% in 2.0. Really the only dps subclass that has a chance to keep within shouting range of healers is Jugg/Guardian Rage/Focus. Which makes it ironic that other dps subclasses often ask that they get nerfed. Really the other dps subclasses need to get buffed to Rage/Focus levels.

 

All they need to do is increase the trauma debuff to reflect the new healing numbers. You'd think they'd pay attention to the balance in healing when they go and completely revamp all the stats. We don't need more burst, we just need lower heals.

Edited May 20, 2013 by dcgregorya

[MotorCityMan]

This is PVP, not PVE, people are supposed to die, otherwise the fight is boring and may as well be beating up on training dummies.

 

Some of you might find the WoW world championship arena (3 vs 3) pvp vidoes interesting. Some can last 45 mins with no one dying. I guess that is cheesy and boring too eh? Not real pvp? Not like xbox? Pew Pew? Broken? Not real pvp?

You have it backwards. You want your pvp to play like pve. Pew pew, stuff dies. Mindless. If there are objectives and healing and strategy then it's not pvp? Think so?

[dcgregorya]

Some of you might find the WoW world championship arena (3 vs 3) pvp vidoes interesting. Some can last 45 mins with no one dying. I guess that is cheesy and boring too eh? Not real pvp? Not like xbox? Pew Pew? Broken? Not real pvp?

You have it backwards. You want your pvp to play like pve. Pew pew, stuff dies. Mindless. If there are objectives and healing and strategy then it's not pvp? Think so?

 

Spamming rotations endlessly without moving is PVE. PVP is supposed to be dynamic. Spamming rotations is the exact opposite of dynamic. Without voice comms to assist with alpha striking and focusing fire, it's just one big boring training dummy match.

 

This is not arena. Its objective based PVP. Those objectives are meaningless if no one can kill anyone else, because then the objectives never change hands and the first person there wins. It's clearly not how PVP was built to be played on these maps - otherwise they would not bother with capture the objective style maps. I've had easily a half dozen voidstars over the last 3 days where neither team got past the first room. That's not how that map is supposed to be played. Same for Novare, Civil War, etc. These maps are not designed for 2 healers to keep each other up forever with no one dying.

 

And FWIW, I'm convinced based on these designs and previous changes to the game that Bioware/EA is on the same page and will nerf healing. I just hope they get around to it sometime this century.

Edited May 20, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Astarica]

Who gives a crap if most are bad. It take's a tag team of at least 2 supremely competent people ccing and dpsing to bring down a single good operative. If there is more than one, well good luck with that. Operative healers are RIDICULOUS. Personally I have no intention of watching this go on much longer.

 

It's less of a balance issue at the high level because top DPS are almost always accompanied by top healers and vice versa, which turns the entire fight into a stalemate. In such a fight you still end up with the stronger team win, as it'd go something like team A's healer died once but team B's healer died twice, and that extra death was what allowed team A to win. Mind you I don't think that kind of gameplay should be encouraged at all, but it's still fair.

 

In fact right now, playing 'bad' is probably better than playing 'good' for an Operative because any DPS who is actually good enough to beat an Operative knows how to abuse all the various weaknesses in the Operative's interruptible heals. Therefore you might as well play like an instant spamming monkey as that has no weakness against any kind of interrupt. A lot of time when fighting an Operative I'm just waiting for him to cast his normal heal because interrupting that at the last 0.1s plus a stun gives me about 6s to burst him down instead of just 4s and that extra 2s is huge. Another funky meta game is when an Operative tries to trick you into interrupting with Diagnoistic Scan, except good players don't get fooled by that and just let them freecast Diagnostic Scan, putting the Operative way behind. The end result is that right now, it doesn't even pay to be a good healer if you're an Operative.

[Astarica]

All they need to do is increase the trauma debuff to reflect the new healing numbers. You'd think they'd pay attention to the balance in healing when they go and completely revamp all the stats. We don't need more burst, we just need lower heals.

 

To be fair I do think TTK is pretty low whenever you do find the rare moment your healers are down. I'd suggest nerfing all DPS by 10% in WZ and increase trauma by 15% (the exact numbers are up to debate). That way, healing will be less potent than before, but the pace of the game will be slowed down to make it easier to heal on time. Hopefully this allows you to get a game where healers can actually react to DPS on time, but are unable to keep people up forever.

[dcgregorya]

To be fair I do think TTK is pretty low whenever you do find the rare moment your healers are down. I'd suggest nerfing all DPS by 10% in WZ and increase trauma by 15% (the exact numbers are up to debate). That way, healing will be less potent than before, but the pace of the game will be slowed down to make it easier to heal on time. Hopefully this allows you to get a game where healers can actually react to DPS on time, but are unable to keep people up forever.

 

I honestly think that, there's two things that cause this :

 

1) Augments - you really can't play without augments. Maybe you never really could, but that's more pronounced now with the MK-9s.

2) Serendipitous assault relics. These should go and be replaced with utility style relics that don't do any damage or any heals directly. Maybe something that generates energy or cleanses or small speed buffs or has a chance to CC break or etc. Random bursts of 450-900 power just doesn't do anything good for the perception of TTK in PVP.

Edited May 20, 2013 by dcgregorya

[MotorCityMan]

I doubt healing will be nerfed. Bioware knows that even if they do, the xbox mentality players will just move on to the next perceived obstacle to their pew pew derp play style. Bubbles, gear normalization, bolster, tank guard, other dps that beat them, healing, having to defend, taunting, sage force armor, Op rolls, snipers, CCs, stuns, the list never ends and neither do the QQ posts about them. Not to mention any adjustment to their dps abilities.

Until this crowd gets pvp to play like their pve playstation shooters the the tears will just keep flowing.

Edited May 20, 2013 by MotorCityMan