Star Wars, and the clean energy issues of City Planets

[jedimasterjac]

People forget this is fiction. We don't even know if power works the same in the Star Wars Universe. Just let it be that Coruscant is ,magically powered and move on, because it doesn't make a damned difference.

[XantosCledwin]

What are you saying here... that nuclear fusion is unstable?

 

It is far from being unstable. But it is also not an infinite power supply. Stars do burn themselves out over long periods of time. Give it about 6 billion years and even our Star, Sol, will run out of the fuel necessary to create nuclear fusion and will either go Super Nova, turn into a White Dwarf, or collapse into a Black Hole. Most Scientists today agree that Sol will turn into a White Dwarf when it's fuel runs out.

 

Oh and we actually get an insight into how Coruscant is powered in a TCW episode. This to be specific. Not sure exactly how it works but perhaps you can make an interpretation.

 

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that episode in all honesty. Here's the thing. That Power Station could be one of any number of things:

 

A Power Converter (transforming a different type of Energy into Electricity)

A Power Waystation (transferring Energy from a distant location to the locations it needs to be, which is hinted at in the article)

An actual Power Plant (which if this is the case it would need to be some sort of Clean Fuel that produces massive amounts of electricity which we do not currently have the capability to generate here on Earth seeing as how one Power Generator is providing power to billions of people at a time).

A Power Storage Unit (this is also likely, instead of the Power being generated on the planet, it is generated off site, and transported to this power station somehow where it is used to supply the city with power).

 

People forget this is fiction. We don't even know if power works the same in the Star Wars Universe. Just let it be that Coruscant is ,magically powered and move on, because it doesn't make a damned difference.

 

I would like to remind you that Star Wars falls under the category of Science Fiction, just as does Star Trek. Things that Science Fiction predicted that we now have in real life which we did not have when Science Fiction first predicted them:

 

Cell Phones (Star Trek Predicted them in the form of hand held flip-top communicators)

Computer Monitors and instant 2-way Video Telecommunication (Again, Star Trek predicted this in the form of the Enterprise' main view screen)

Computers that talk to you (again Star Trek predicted this in the form of the Enterprise' main computer)

 

In fact there are a number of Theoretical technologies that are being worked on (Plasma Weaponry, a certain type of glass free vacuum proof window) that were inspired by Star Wars as well. So to say that Science Fiction is just "Fiction" is vastly misunderstanding the role that Science Fiction has in our worlds scientific community.

Edited June 2, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

It is far from being unstable. But it is also not an infinite power supply. Stars do burn themselves out over long periods of time. Give it about 6 billion years and even our Star, Sol, will run out of the fuel necessary to create nuclear fusion and will either go Super Nova, turn into a White Dwarf, or collapse into a Black Hole. Most Scientists today agree that Sol will turn into a White Dwarf when it's fuel runs out.

I'm not going to confess to being an expert on nuclear fusion. But can't you replicate the process in say, a power plant? Either way 6 billion years is a very long time. Given the fact life has only existed in the galaxy for 5 billion years. So unless nuclear fusion accelerates the process I'd say its a more than viable power source.

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that episode in all honesty. Here's the thing. That Power Station could be one of any number of things:

 

A Power Converter (transforming a different type of Energy into Electricity)

A Power Waystation (transferring Energy from a distant location to the locations it needs to be, which is hinted at in the article)

An actual Power Plant (which if this is the case it would need to be some sort of Clean Fuel that produces massive amounts of electricity which we do not currently have the capability to generate here on Earth seeing as how one Power Generator is providing power to billions of people at a time).

A Power Storage Unit (this is also likely, instead of the Power being generated on the planet, it is generated off site, and transported to this power station somehow where it is used to supply the city with power).

My hunch would be a power converter, given that its call a power generator. I suppose that really doubles as a waystation as well given that a transformer is effectively a waystation in the process of generating and distributing electricity.

I would like to remind you that Star Wars falls under the category of Science Fiction, just as does Star Trek. Things that Science Fiction predicted that we now have in real life which we did not have when Science Fiction first predicted them.

Well actually Star Wars is fantasy disguised as science fiction. Just saying. Edited June 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

I'm not going to confess to being an expert on nuclear fusion. But can't you replicate the process in say, a power plant? Either way 6 billion years is a very long time. Given the fact life has only existed in the galaxy for 5 billion years. So unless nuclear fusion accelerates the process I'd say its a more than viable power source.My hunch would be a power converter, given that its call a power generator. I suppose that really doubles as a waystation as well given that a transformer is effectively a waystation in the process of generating and distributing electricity.Well actually Star Wars is fantasy disguised as science fiction. Just saying.

 

I don't know that people know this but fusion generators (aka nuclear generators) in star wars are actually small enough that they can carry them around. The lamp like thing you see with Luke in episode 5 is a nuclear generator so just say technolodgy vastly superior to ours it works on SCIENCE.

[XantosCledwin]

I'm not going to confess to being an expert on nuclear fusion. But can't you replicate the process in say, a power plant?

 

It is exceedingly difficult to replicate the process in a power plant. We here on earth have been trying to achieve just that since we first discovered that Atoms exist and that the fusion of Atoms are what powers the Sun. We have so far failed to produce a Fusion Reaction that is sustainable on a large enough scale to power anything for longer than a day. Why do you think virtually every Nuclear Power Plant in the world runs off of Nuclear Fision Reactions? (Nuclear Fision is the same type of Reaction that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagisaki(sp?))

 

Either way 6 billion years is a very long time. Given the fact life has only existed in the galaxy for 5 billion years.

 

The Sun has existed for roughly 4.6 billion years. So it is impossible for life on the earth to have existed for 5 billion years since the planet didn't even exist yet. The Earth itself is only 4.54 billion years old. That said, adding 4.6 billion to 6 billion and you get a little over 10 billion years of Nuclear Fusion. The oldest stars currently in existence are only slightly younger than the universe (which itself is 13.8 billion years old). So something that is able to generate power for almost the length of time that the universe has existed would seem to be an infinite power supply. But the fact is that it is not an infinite power supply, and stars do die over vast distances of time. For something to be truly infinite in power generation capability, it would require the ability to never ever run out, even after the universe itself dies (and yes that is a possible scenario).

 

Well actually Star Wars is fantasy disguised as science fiction. Just saying.[/color]

 

Using the presence of Jedi in the Star Wars Universe to justify claiming that Electricity is necessarily generated by some sort of mysticism instead of science inside of the Star Wars Universe is sheer childishness.

 

I don't know that people know this but fusion generators (aka nuclear generators) in star wars are actually small enough that they can carry them around. The lamp like thing you see with Luke in episode 5 is a nuclear generator so just say technolodgy vastly superior to ours it works on SCIENCE.

 

If Luke (and the rest of the Star Wars Cast) are carrying around hand held lamps that are powered by Nuclear Fusion Reactions... the same sort of stuff that powers the Stars... then why on earth aren't they using these to power their Blasters and Lightsabers? I mean with that kind of power generation the bloody Tie Fighters would be massively more efficient Death Stars than the bloody Death Star.

Edited June 2, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[tunewalker]

It is exceedingly difficult to replicate the process in a power plant. We here on earth have been trying to achieve just that since we first discovered that Atoms exist and that the fusion of Atoms are what powers the Sun. We have so far failed to produce a Fusion Reaction that is sustainable on a large enough scale to power anything for longer than a day. Why do you think virtually every Nuclear Power Plant in the world runs off of Nuclear Fision Reactions? (Nuclear Fision is the same type of Reaction that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagisaki(sp?))

 

 

 

The Sun has existed for roughly 4.6 billion years. So it is impossible for life on the earth to have existed for 5 billion years since the planet didn't even exist yet. The Earth itself is only 4.54 billion years old. That said, adding 4.6 billion to 6 billion and you get a little over 10 billion years of Nuclear Fusion. The oldest stars currently in existence are only slightly younger than the universe (which itself is 13.8 billion years old). So something that is able to generate power for almost the length of time that the universe has existed would seem to be an infinite power supply. But the fact is that it is not an infinite power supply, and stars do die over vast distances of time. For something to be truly infinite in power generation capability, it would require the ability to never ever run out, even after the universe itself dies (and yes that is a possible scenario).

 

 

 

Using the presence of Jedi in the Star Wars Universe to justify claiming that Electricity is necessarily generated by some sort of mysticism instead of science inside of the Star Wars Universe is sheer childishness.

 

 

 

If Luke (and the rest of the Star Wars Cast) are carrying around hand held lamps that are powered by Nuclear Fusion Reactions... the same sort of stuff that powers the Stars... then why on earth aren't they using these to power their Blasters and Lightsabers? I mean with that kind of power generation the bloody Tie Fighters would be massively more efficient Death Stars than the bloody Death Star.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p44pcTXpPOs the thing R2 is plugged into is a Star wars Fusion generator...... it lasts for months and months and is rechargeable like a battery.....don't ask me how they figured out what we haven't.

 

Since some generators they have are the size of the ones we normally have I would say yes they have something that lasts near indeffinatly that works.... who knows how.

Edited June 2, 2013 by tunewalker

[XantosCledwin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p44pcTXpPOs the thing R2 is plugged into is a Star wars Fusion generator...... it lasts for months and months and is rechargeable like a battery.....don't ask me how they figured out what we haven't.

 

Okay, let me explain this for you...

 

There is no way in hell that that tiny little device in that video is capable of generating Fusion Reactions on the scale of what is required to power Coruscant. It is far far far too small. Heck even these things are far far too small.

 

I suppose it is possible, if they in the Star Wars universe have figured out how to generate large scale controlled Fusion Reactions that they are using these to power things like the Death Star, Star Destroyers, and Coruscant. However as I have mentioned this power supply is not infinite. And even though it is considered clean, it does give off its own emissions. The Sun gives off butt loads of radiation every day, we are spared the brunt of this radiation because of our planets magnetic core. There is no telling what having vast power generation units that issue the same type of radiation that the sun creates on the planets surface would do to the planets population.

 

Also, I have to ask... if both the Empire and the Rebellion had access to Nuclear Fusion Devices... why weren't they using this technology to amp up the power behind their turbo lasers? I mean with all the power that could be drawn from the sun if we could tap its fusion core, you would think you would have enough power to mass produce Death Star Super Lasers and make them compact enough to put on One Man Fighters.

Edited June 2, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[tunewalker]

Okay, let me explain this for you...

 

There is no way in hell that that tiny little device in that video is capable of generating Fusion Reactions on the scale of what is required to power Coruscant. It is far far far too small. Heck even these things are far far too small.

 

I suppose it is possible, if they in the Star Wars universe have figured out how to generate large scale controlled Fusion Reactions that they are using these to power things like the Death Star, Star Destroyers, and Coruscant. However as I have mentioned this power supply is not infinite. And even though it is considered clean, it does give off its own emissions. The Sun gives off butt loads of radiation every day, we are spared the brunt of this radiation because of our planets magnetic core. There is no telling what having vast power generation units that issue the same type of radiation that the sun creates on the planets surface would do to the planets population.

 

Correction its impossible based on the information that we currently know...... they are far more advanced thus not neccisarrily impossible fact of the matter is nearly anything is possible its just not possible with how we do things but it is with the way they do it... also should be noted TIE fighter stands for Twin Ion Engine and according to the physics we know they would be slow as hell yet they aren't.... so again it falls under don't try to figure it out based off the scientific information we know because its design is based off of scientific imformation we don't know..... nothings changed that little device is still a powerful Fusion generator don't ask how it works I cant tell you no one can but it works in the star wars universe.

[XantosCledwin]

Correction its impossible based on the information that we currently know...... they are far more advanced thus not neccisarrily impossible fact of the matter is nearly anything is possible its just not possible with how we do things but it is with the way they do it... also should be noted TIE fighter stands for Twin Ion Engine and according to the physics we know they would be slow as hell yet they aren't.... so again it falls under don't try to figure it out based off the scientific information we know because its design is based off of scientific imformation we don't know..... nothings changed that little device is still a powerful Fusion generator don't ask how it works I cant tell you no one can but it works in the star wars universe.

 

That depends on how they are defining an "Ion." I am pretty certain that George Lucas just used the word Ion for the same reason that Isaac Asimov used the word Positron when coining the term for the Positronic Brain. Which is to say that it was at the time a new word in science and he liked the sound of it. It doesn't necessarily relate at all to how the Twin Ion Engines actually work. And in fact, taking the "Galactic Basic to English Translation Error" Argument into consideration the word Ion may actually be a mistranslation of what the I actually stands for. Heck the Acronym may not even actually be the word TIE to begin with when you get right down to it.

 

For that matter, all those devices that we are calling Fusion Generators, may not even be Fusion Generators to begin with. Rather the word Fusion could simply be the closest translation in our language for what they actually call it in their language.

 

Language really does dilute the whole issue. It is easier to discuss this based on what we see, rather than what we hear.

Edited June 2, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[tunewalker]

That depends on how they are defining an "Ion." I am pretty certain that George Lucas just used the word Ion for the same reason that Isaac Asimov used the word Positron when coining the term for the Positronic Brain. Which is to say that it was at the time a new word in science and he liked the sound of it. It doesn't necessarily relate at all to how the Twin Ion Engines actually work. And in fact, taking the "Galactic Basic to English Translation Error" Argument into consideration the word Ion may actually be a mistranslation of what the I actually stands for. Heck the Acronym may not even actually be the word TIE to begin with when you get right down to it.

 

For that matter, all those devices that we are calling Fusion Generators, may not even be Fusion Generators to begin with. Rather the word Fusion could simply be the closest translation in our language for what they actually call it in their language.

 

Language really does dilute the whole issue. It is easier to discuss this based on what we see, rather than what we hear.

 

Which further leaves the issue of why its impossible to discuss or understand how any of these power things work..... who knows what it all is technically running on its just running and it works what ever power source they are using and it certainly isn't possible with the imformation that we know that's the whole thing. they have a power source you are looking for and turbo lasers need a crap ton of energy because of reasons.......... that we will never know... its one of those the science of star wars is generally not based off much if any real science at all thus trying to figure out what It actually is, is entirely pointless just know that its there and it works.

 

 

Because what we see Courcant miles and miles of cities that are miles high with the entire underpotion being your sewers powerplants and the like that have powered the planet for thousands of years some how...... what type of energy are they probably something we have never heard of as nothing we know of can do that..... so there you go.

Edited June 2, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

It is exceedingly difficult to replicate the process in a power plant. We here on earth have been trying to achieve just that since we first discovered that Atoms exist and that the fusion of Atoms are what powers the Sun. We have so far failed to produce a Fusion Reaction that is sustainable on a large enough scale to power anything for longer than a day. Why do you think virtually every Nuclear Power Plant in the world runs off of Nuclear Fision Reactions? (Nuclear Fision is the same type of Reaction that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagisaki(sp?))

Well yeah this is what I mean. The general idea is that if we work out how to replicate nuclear fusion we'll have a clean, sustainable energy source that could easily power the entire planet. In fact there currently building a nuclear fusion plant somewhere or another to try and do exactly that.

 

However given that the civilizations in the Star Wars galaxy are vastly more advanced than our own, what with hyperspace travel, space ships, ecumenopoli, Death Stars etc. it is not too implausible to assume that said civilizations have managed to replicate the process in a power plant, and because of the power in can generate, power planets such as Coruscant.

 

In fact a quick Wookiee search reveals that such technology has been created. See here. Oh wait, aha! If you follow the link to reactor core you'll read the following:

 

A reactor core (or just reactor) was a central power generating facility found in starships, space stations and planet-bound power plants of virtually any size.

 

This is most likely the primary source of clean, sustainable energy in the Star Wars galaxy and the means by which city planets such as Coruscant are powered. Also note that the Death Star is powered by nuclear fusion reactors.

The Sun has existed for roughly 4.6 billion years. So it is impossible for life on the earth to have existed for 5 billion years since the planet didn't even exist yet. The Earth itself is only 4.54 billion years old. That said, adding 4.6 billion to 6 billion and you get a little over 10 billion years of Nuclear Fusion. The oldest stars currently in existence are only slightly younger than the universe (which itself is 13.8 billion years old). So something that is able to generate power for almost the length of time that the universe has existed would seem to be an infinite power supply. But the fact is that it is not an infinite power supply, and stars do die over vast distances of time. For something to be truly infinite in power generation capability, it would require the ability to never ever run out, even after the universe itself dies (and yes that is a possible scenario).

I meant the Star Wars galaxy, life in the Star Wars galaxy has been around since 5,000,000,000 BBY.

 

Nor does a power supply have to be infinite, to be sustainable, or renewable for that matter.

Using the presence of Jedi in the Star Wars Universe to justify claiming that Electricity is necessarily generated by some sort of mysticism instead of science inside of the Star Wars Universe is sheer childishness.

I know, I was just pointing it out. Edited June 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Also, I have to ask... if both the Empire and the Rebellion had access to Nuclear Fusion Devices... why weren't they using this technology to amp up the power behind their turbo lasers? I mean with all the power that could be drawn from the sun if we could tap its fusion core, you would think you would have enough power to mass produce Death Star Super Lasers and make them compact enough to put on One Man Fighters.

I don't think it works like that. Like you said that tiny lamp is not large enough to power Coruscant, or the Death Star. So likewise its not going to be powerful enough to give TIE fighter's Death Star capabilities.

 

Also, even if that was possible, the Death Star isn't just a big fusion core. Its incredibly large and incredibly complex and with the current state of technology in the Star Wars galaxy, likely impossible to scale down to the size of a Death Star.

 

Nuclear fusion in the end isn't anything special, its just another means of producing electricity and powering stuff.

[XantosCledwin]

I meant the Star Wars galaxy, life in the Star Wars galaxy has been around since 5,000,000,000 BBY.

 

I guess that really depends on what you classify as life. But seeing as how Wookies managed to begin to evolve in 2,000,000,000 B.C. and since it generally takes millions of years for a humanoid species to evolve, it is exceedingly likely that life on Kashyyyk had existed well before the 5,000,000,000 year date you mentioned. In fact that date is only significant because it is specifically mentioned as the date when xenobiologists assume life first began to evolve on a very specific planet. It is not indicative of the Galaxy as a whole in any way shape or form.

 

I don't think it works like that. Like you said that tiny lamp is not large enough to power Coruscant, or the Death Star. So likewise its not going to be powerful enough to give TIE fighter's Death Star capabilities.

 

Also, even if that was possible, the Death Star isn't just a big fusion core. Its incredibly large and incredibly complex and with the current state of technology in the Star Wars galaxy, likely impossible to scale down to the size of a Death Star.

 

Nuclear fusion in the end isn't anything special, its just another means of producing electricity and powering stuff.

 

I don't know, the Sun Crusher seems to disprove your claims that destructive power on the order of magnitude of the Death Star could not be shrunk down significantly... considering that the Sun Crusher basically employed Torpedo's that destabilized the Fusion Reactions in Stars causing them to go Super Nova at a moment's notice.

Edited June 2, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

I guess that really depends on what you classify as life. But seeing as how Wookies managed to begin to evolve in 2,000,000,000 B.C. and since it generally takes millions of years for a humanoid species to evolve, it is exceedingly likely that life on Kashyyyk had existed well before the 5,000,000,000 year date you mentioned. In fact that date is only significant because it is specifically mentioned as the date when xenobiologists assume life first began to evolve on a very specific planet. It is not indicative of the Galaxy as a whole in any way shape or form.

I don't mean to blur the line between reality and ficiton, but a xenobiologist's assumption is far more reliable than your own assumptions. And its 2 million, not 2 billion. Regardless I don't think this really has any bearing on the discussion either way.

I don't know, the Sun Crusher seems to disprove your claims that destructive power on the order of magnitude of the Death Star could not be shrunk down significantly... considering that the Sun Crusher basically employed Torpedo's that destabilized the Fusion Reactions in Stars causing them to go Super Nova at a moment's notice.

I wouldn't say so, the sun crusher uses special torpedos which set off a chain reaction within stars. It causes damage, but said torpedos would not cause as much damage to say a Star Destroyer than a Death Star superlaser would. Its merely exploiting a weakness in stars. Not destroying it with sheer force. For example, viruses can cause massive damage to human populations merely by exploiting weaknesses in their immune systems. Yet one would not say that a virus is more powerful than a missle. Or a more effective means of destroying tanks. Edited June 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[XantosCledwin]

I don't mean to blur the line between reality and ficiton, but a xenobiologist's assumption is far more reliable than your own assumptions. And its 2 million, not 2 billion. Regardless I don't think this really has any bearing on the discussion either way.

 

You are right, it is 2 million, not 2 billion (which makes sense all things considered).

 

That said, assuming that Goroth Prime was the first planet to develop life, when its own civilization was of virtually no importance to the web of galactic history (other than being slaves in the Galactic Empire over 4,999,999,983 years after the first vestiges of life appeared on that planet), would mean that the Gorothians did not live up to their histories great potential. Which would seem to indicate that lifeforms evolved separately and very likely earlier in other parts of the galaxy.

 

In fact if the Rakata home planet had not already developed it's own equivalent to Dinosaurs by 5 billion BBY, then that leaves very little hope for the Rakatan Infinite Empire to develop the way it did by 35,000 BBY. And that isn't even getting into the Gree (whose golden age was 300,000 BBY), the Celestials (who left the known Galaxy in 1,000,000 BBY, after doing stuff like creating the entire Corellian Solar System), the Sharu (who caused the Celestials to leave the known Galaxy), and most importantly, the Culumi whose species first evolved in 2,006,200 BBY.

 

Further the Culumi manage to achieve Interstellar Space Flight (the ability to travel between Stars) within 6,200 years of first evolving. This is an unbelievable achievement as the humans which arose on Earth first evolved into Homosapiens around 200,000 years ago and we still have yet to make the leap between Stars. So it would seem to imply that the Culumi either were not the first sentient species in the Galaxy to evolve, or they evolved in such a manner that their intellect was so far above the average human intellect that they were able to make interstellar spaceflight happen in roughly 3% of the time it took humans to master basic orbital spaceflight.

 

Additionally assuming that a fully sentient race like the Culumi evolved in 2 million BBY, then you need to tack on about another 4 billion years (based on our own earth's history) for life itself to evolve on that planet. But far more likely given the intense amount of intellect the Culumi developed, it would have taken far longer for their species to evolve from simple single celled organisms. And again, thats just using the races that had a significant influence on the Galactic History.

 

In fact of those races, the one we really need to be focusing on above all the others, is the Gree. Since according to the Pat-aK Questline on Coruscant, it was the Gree who built the infrastructure that is the basis of Coruscant. Thus determining the nature of the power source is entirely dependent on what types of Power the Gree Enclave utilizes. It does not depend on what types of power humans, twi'lek's or any of the other humanoid species use. Rather it depends on what an octopi species considers safe to use as a power source.

 

I wouldn't say so, the sun crusher uses special torpedos which set off a chain reaction within stars. It causes damage, but said torpedos would not cause as much damage to say a Star Destroyer than a Death Star superlaser would. Its merely exploiting a weakness in stars. Not destroying it with sheer force. For example, viruses can cause massive damage to human populations merely by exploiting weaknesses in their immune systems. Yet one would not say that a virus is more powerful than a missle. Or a more effective means of destroying tanks.

 

Eh... The Sun Crusher itself has been rammed straight through the hull of a Star Destroyer of the Imperial Class with little to no damage to itself (Imperial Class are the standard Star Destroyers you see in the original movies). The Sun Crusher itself has also survived glancing blows from the Death Star Prototypes Turbo Laser (which is just as powerful as the Death Star's). and while the Torpedo's were unsuccessful at destroying the Death Star Prototype, the fact that they were employed in a manner intended to destroy the Death Star Prototype directly instead of sending the torpedo into a nearby star, would seem to indicate that they are perfectly capable of destroying physical objects just as easily as they are capable of destroying stars.

 

And actually you are incorrect in your assessment of the Resonance Torpedo. It does not cause a chain reaction per se. Rather it destabilizes the chain reaction that is already occurring every day within the Star by introducing certain heavy elements that do not react in the same way as the elements already present in the Star. This causes the Star to go Super Nova.

Edited June 4, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

In fact of those races, the one we really need to be focusing on above all the others, is the Gree. Since according to the Pat-aK Questline on Coruscant, it was the Gree who built the infrastructure that is the basis of Coruscant. Thus determining the nature of the power source is entirely dependent on what types of Power the Gree Enclave utilizes. It does not depend on what types of power humans, twi'lek's or any of the other humanoid species use. Rather it depends on what an octopi species considers safe to use as a power source.

The Gree may have designed the infrastructure of Coruscant. But I highly doubt it hasn't been built upon by other races since then. And I expect that just like our own civilization, the kind of power source being used differed over time depending on capacity, technological advancement etc. Either way the Gree are a very advanced race and nuclear fusion is certainly not beyond them.

Eh... The Sun Crusher itself has been rammed straight through the hull of a Star Destroyer of the Imperial Class with little to no damage to itself (Imperial Class are the standard Star Destroyers you see in the original movies). The Sun Crusher itself has also survived glancing blows from the Death Star Prototypes Turbo Laser (which is just as powerful as the Death Star's). and while the Torpedo's were unsuccessful at destroying the Death Star Prototype, the fact that they were employed in a manner intended to destroy the Death Star Prototype directly instead of sending the torpedo into a nearby star, would seem to indicate that they are perfectly capable of destroying physical objects just as easily as they are capable of destroying stars.

I was referring to the torpedos, not the Sun Crusher itself. That on the otherhand is akin to dropping an elephant on a tank and saying 'its more powerful than a machine gun'. Its an entirely different kind of weapon and entirely different kind of technology, and certainly not the same kind as Death Star superlaser. For that reason a comparison cannot be made, and is not proof that the Death Star superlaser can be downsized to fit on TIE fighters.

[XantosCledwin]

or it would be better to say that it would take an advancement in Star Wars Technology in order for it to become possible seeing as how Star Wars Technology has been in a state of stagnation since at least the Great Hyperspace War.

[Beniboybling]

or it would be better to say that it would take an advancement in Star Wars Technology in order for it to become possible seeing as how Star Wars Technology has been in a state of stagnation since at least the Great Hyperspace War.

I would disagree. While advancement is slow clearly advancements have been made, that's obvious just by comparing this picture with this.

[XantosCledwin]

I would disagree. While advancement is slow clearly advancements have been made, that's obvious just by comparing this picture with this.

 

Okay, first off, that first image is Coruscant during the Great Hyperspace War (circa 5,000 Before Battle of Yevon). The second image is (I think) an Artists rendition of the battle over Coruscant at the beginning of Episode 3 (might actually be the battle during that episode), which happened in 19 BBY exactly 4,981 years after the Great Hyperspace War. If Coruscant was unable to go from a Gothic style of Architecture to outright Sci Fi Architecture over the span of almost 5,000 years, then I would say that no progress has been made in their Architecture as well as their Technology.

 

However the sad fact is, that in both of those images (and by proxy the movies that the second image takes place during) you see things that indicate that technology has been stagnant for at least 5,000 years.

 

1.) Lightsabers. Yes these are the archaic version that required a belt-mounted power cord and not the type that we are used to seeing. But they are also not Force Sabers (which were of Rakata Design and were the inspiration for Lightsabers in the first place).

 

2. Force-Pikes, these are still in use by Emperor Palpatine's personal guard. They are not obsolete technology created 5,000 years ago.

 

3. Heavy Artillery Ion Cannons (at least I think they are Ion Cannons). These are used by almost every ground to air assault in almost every major battle since the Battle of Coruscant in the Great Hyperspace War, and probably a few before.

 

4. There is a bloody TIE Fighter in the first image, if you look closely enough....

 

5. Capital Ships, though they have changed appearance over the years, they still exist centuries later.

 

As for the Architecture, we are only seeing a very small part of Coruscant in the first image. It could be very possible that this is the proto-Jedi Temple complex that we are seeing and not the Senate Building or any of the other major thoroughfares. Afterall if you look at the Jedi Temple in the Prequel Trilogy, it does kind of resemble some of the architecture in the first image.

 

Not to mention if you want to get severely technical, that kind of architecture is quite popular on Naboo, Alderaan, and a few other planets and has been for quite some time.

 

Also, bear in mind that Coruscant was a full scale city-planet not even 1300 years after the first image was taken. It would take a considerable amount of man-power (Droid-power?) to convert an entire planet from open landscape and gothic spires into a futuristic Cityscape over the course of just 1,300 years. I don't think it is possible to do. Especially with people living on the planet at the same time.

Edited June 4, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

Now the thing here is, your saying that just because you can't see vast improvements in technology, there have been none at all. But I can assure you that the ships in the first picture and far less advanced that the ships in the second, even if they can't morph into elephants and move through solid objects. New technology has been invented.

 

To name just a few technologies that simply weren't possible during the Great Hyperspace War period:

 

 

• Cloning of Force-sensitives
   
   
  
• Planet-destroying superlasers
   
   
  
• Deflector shields
   
   
  
• Navicomputers
   
   
  
• Cloaking devices
   
   
  
• HoloNet
  

 

All these technologies simply didn't exist during the Great Hyperspace War period, and I'm sure there are many many others on top of that. Sure, advancement has been slow, but not no existent, and only because technology has more or less peaked.

[XantosCledwin]

Now the thing here is, your saying that just because you can't see vast improvements in technology, there have been none at all. But I can assure you that the ships in the first picture and far less advanced that the ships in the second, even if they can't morph into elephants and move through solid objects. New technology has been invented.

 

To name just a few technologies that simply weren't possible during the Great Hyperspace War period:

 

 

• Cloning of Force-sensitives
   
   
  
• Planet-destroying superlasers
   
   
  
• Deflector shields
   
   
  
• Navicomputers
   
   
  
• Cloaking devices
   
   
  
• HoloNet
  

 

All these technologies simply didn't exist during the Great Hyperspace War period, and I'm sure there are many many others on top of that. Sure, advancement has been slow, but not no existent, and only because technology has more or less peaked.

 

Please note I did not say "There have been no improvements in technology in the past 5,000 years" I said that technology has been stagnant. Which can mistakenly be assumed to mean that it has not shown improvement, but can also mean that it has not been of consequential enough improvement to be worth noting.

 

If you remember, during Obi Wan's discussion with Dex, they talked as if they both knew what Cloning was. Which means that there have to be other cloning civilizations from which Obi Wan was able to draw the understanding he needed of the word Clone. Otherwise Dex's comment that the Kaminoans were Cloners would have no meaning to Obi Wan. It should be noted that the Columi, and Arkanians (both of which are honored in Star Wars the Old Republic by having Armor named after them, and both of which are ancient civilizations pre-dating the Hyperspace War) both had Cloning Technology.

 

I will grant you the planet destroying Super-Lasers, but will raise you the Star Forge which was vastly larger than the Death Star and able to produce armada's of capital ships, legions of droids, and all sorts of other things (and was powered using Star Lifting Technology). The Foundry (the Star Forge's twin) which also created Legions of Droids, and heck why not just the entire Rakatan Infinite Empire while I am at it. Most of their tech was so advanced that the civilizations that came after them couldn't duplicate the tech. Take Forcesabers for example, people couldn't duplicate the technique used to create them, so they created Lightsabers instead. In fact a large chunk of the technology in Star Wars likely has its origins in trying to duplicate Rakatan, Gree, Columi, Arkanian, or Celestial technology that couldn't otherwise be duplicated.

 

If Navicomputers are so spectacularly advanced by the time of the Rebel Alliance, why do X-Wings still require Astromech Droids? For that matter, why are the only ships that seem to be equipped with internal navicomputers the size of the Millennium Falcon or bigger?

 

Cloaking Devices have existed for quite a long time in Star Wars. They just couldn't be equipped on Star Fighters until the Clone Wars. And I seem to be seeing quite a bit of HoloNet Technology in Star Wars the Old Republic. That is set 3,600+ years before the battle of yevon, and the holonet for all intents and purposes appears to be just as technologically advanced in SWTOR as it is in the original trilogy.

Edited June 4, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

Please note I did not say "There have been no improvements in technology in the past 5,000 years" I said that technology has been stagnant. Which can mistakenly be assumed to mean that it has not shown improvement, but can also mean that it has not been of consequential enough improvement to be worth noting.

If the Death Star not worth noting? Are deflector shields not worth noting? Are navicomputers not worth noting? I'd say significant advancements have been made.

 

And note that the Rakatan Empire are far more advanced than races that come before them, but that technology was lost when the Empire collapsed in on itself. So the Star Forge cannot really be used as an argument, it was simply found and powered up, not invented by the civilization of the day. Likewise the civilizations we seen in SWTOR also experienced a dark age, which set back the galaxy in terms of technology immensely.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Beniboybling

[XantosCledwin]

If the Death Star not worth noting? Are deflector shields not worth noting? Are navicomputers not worth noting? I'd say significant advancements have been made.

 

And note that the Rakatan Empire are far more advanced than races that come before them, but that technology was lost when the Empire collapsed in on itself. So the Star Forge cannot really be used as an argument, it was simply found and powered up, not invented by the civilization of the day.

 

The Death Star is not worth noting because there are 7 known Super Weapons or Objects capable of being used as Super Weapons that existed prior to the creation of the blueprints of the Death Star. These are in order of date created or destroyed:

 

 

1. Centerpoint Station - Gigantic Tractor Beam capable of pulling planets out of their Orbits and transmitting them through hyperspace, this device was responsible for the formation of the Corellian System (Created Circa 1,000,000 BBY)
   
2. Corsair - This battleship had Force-enhanced Sith Devices capable of pulling the Nuclear Core out of a Star (created prior to 5,000 BBY)
   
3. Sun Razer - similar in nature to the Star Forge, but instead of creating Capital Ships, it mass produces Superweapons. (Destroyed circa 3,640 BBY)
   
4. Ascendant Spear - This is a forerunner to the Star Destroyer and similar in design to the Destroyer classes in SWTOR. Unlike other Destroyer class vessels the Ascendant Spear was as fast as the Millennium Falcon... It also sported a Megalaser (not quite as powerful as a Superlaser) which was capable of destroying other capital ships in a single shot. (created 3,643 BBY)
   
5. Planet Prison - featured in SWTOR. While not a Superlaser, it is capable of destroying all life on a planet by imprisoning it within a shield that prevents the life from escaping via ship for an indefinite period of time. Ironically this super-weapon was created by the Republic of our game. (Destroyed circa 3,640 BBY)
   
6. Ground drum - also featured in SWTOR. Capable of vibrating the molecules of living organics apart. (Destroyed circa 3,640 BBY)
   
7. Death Mark Laser - Pin Point Laser Accuracy Death from above laser system capable of killing a single humanoid target that is standing on the surface of a planet surrounded by other humanoid targets without error, from orbit. Of note, the beam was able to penetrate any structure or surface. This qualifies it as a Superlaser, but not one designed to destroy planets. (destroyed circa 3,640 BBY)

 

 

It is incredibly important to note that almost every one of these is as powerful or more powerful than the Death Star in their own way. Strictly speaking the Death Star is only powerful in its showmanship. All these other weapons get the job done without being particularly flamboyant about it (with the possible exception of Centerpoint Station).

 

As for your other examples, Deflector Shields according to Wookiepedia were developed in the early years of Space Travel. This means it was likely an invention of either the Celestials, Columi, or one of the other early spacefairing civilizations and has thus existed almost as long as space travel. Navicomputers likewise have existed at least as long as Hyperspace Technology has, which was invented by the Celestials at the very least when they created Centerpoint Station, but likely before that.

 

You are quite correct, technology was lost when the Rakata civilization fell. However, there is at least one civilization that as of the time of SWTOR still exists, that was contemporary with the Rakata Infinite Empire. The Gree. The Celestials had long since fled the Galaxy (though they still existed wherever they fled to as is evidened by Father, Daughter and Son in SWTCW) but it is the Gree who people wanting to learn of Rakata technology could simply turn to for the Gree predate the Rakata, watched the Rakata rise, and probably know a great deal about how Rakata technology works. Assuming the Gree have any force sensitive members they could even use the Rakata technology that requires Force Sensitivity to operate.

Edited June 4, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

The Death Star is not worth noting because there are 7 known Super Weapons or Objects capable of being used as Super Weapons that existed prior to the creation of the blueprints of the Death Star. These are in order of date created or destroyed:

 

 

1. Centerpoint Station - Gigantic Tractor Beam capable of pulling planets out of their Orbits and transmitting them through hyperspace, this device was responsible for the formation of the Corellian System (Created Circa 1,000,000 BBY)
   
2. Corsair - This battleship had Force-enhanced Sith Devices capable of pulling the Nuclear Core out of a Star (created prior to 5,000 BBY)
   
3. Sun Razer - similar in nature to the Star Forge, but instead of creating Capital Ships, it mass produces Superweapons. (Destroyed circa 3,640 BBY)
   
4. Ascendant Spear - This is a forerunner to the Star Destroyer and similar in design to the Destroyer classes in SWTOR. Unlike other Destroyer class vessels the Ascendant Spear was as fast as the Millennium Falcon... It also sported a Megalaser (not quite as powerful as a Superlaser) which was capable of destroying other capital ships in a single shot. (created 3,643 BBY)
   
5. Planet Prison - featured in SWTOR. While not a Superlaser, it is capable of destroying all life on a planet by imprisoning it within a shield that prevents the life from escaping via ship for an indefinite period of time. Ironically this super-weapon was created by the Republic of our game. (Destroyed circa 3,640 BBY)
   
6. Ground drum - also featured in SWTOR. Capable of vibrating the molecules of living organics apart. (Destroyed circa 3,640 BBY)
   
7. Death Mark Laser - Pin Point Laser Accuracy Death from above laser system capable of killing a single humanoid target that is standing on the surface of a planet surrounded by other humanoid targets without error, from orbit. Of note, the beam was able to penetrate any structure or surface. This qualifies it as a Superlaser, but not one designed to destroy planets. (destroyed circa 3,640 BBY)

All these weapons, except Centerpoint Station, were created during the SWTOR period. However these technological advances were lost during the Draggluch Period, in fact they may have been lost before that it some sort of mutual destruction of the Sith Empire and Republic, but given that the story has yet to come to an end we can only speculate.

 

The Celestials predate all other civilizations, and are not attached to the linear technological evolution of civilizations such humanity. Much like the Rakata we've merely stumbled upon this technology, else the galaxy would be far more advanced than it is the such creations would not be beyond all understanding. And the Corsair is a Force-powered weapon, so does not really fall into the realm of technology.

 

For these reasons, the Death Star was a technological breakthrough and major advancement.

As for your other examples, Deflector Shields according to Wookiepedia were developed in the early years of Space Travel. This means it was likely an invention of either the Celestials, Columi, or one of the other early spacefairing civilizations and has thus existed almost as long as space travel. Navicomputers likewise have existed at least as long as Hyperspace Technology has, which was invented by the Celestials at the very least when they created Centerpoint Station, but likely before that.

 

You are quite correct, technology was lost when the Rakata civilization fell. However, there is at least one civilization that as of the time of SWTOR still exists, that was contemporary with the Rakata Infinite Empire. The Gree. The Celestials had long since fled the Galaxy (though they still existed wherever they fled to as is evidened by Father, Daughter and Son in SWTCW) but it is the Gree who people wanting to learn of Rakata technology could simply turn to for the Gree predate the Rakata, watched the Rakata rise, and probably know a great deal about how Rakata technology works. Assuming the Gree have any force sensitive members they could even use the Rakata technology that requires Force Sensitivity to operate.

Well all I'm aware of is that during the Great Hyperspace War, deflector shields were not in use and as the Wookiee page says, they instead relied on thick armour. And land based deflector shields came in much later. As did other technologies pertaining to that. Likewise navicomputers were only invented during the Mandalorian Wars, before that they relied on hyperspace beacons. It may have been invented by Celestials, but that technology was evidently lost.

 

And yes, species like the Gree do have access to those technologies, which is why they are so very much more advanced by civilizations of the day. They are certainly not evidence of technological stagnation.

[XantosCledwin]

All these weapons, except Centerpoint Station, were created during the SWTOR period. However these technological advances were lost during the Draggluch Period, in fact they may have been lost before that it some sort of mutual destruction of the Sith Empire and Republic, but given that the story has yet to come to an end we can only speculate.

 

The Celestials predate all other civilizations, and are not attached to the linear technological evolution of civilizations such humanity. Much like the Rakata we've merely stumbled upon this technology, else the galaxy would be far more advanced than it is the such creations would not be beyond all understanding. And the Corsair is a Force-powered weapon, so does not really fall into the realm of technology.

 

Actually Corsair was created during the Great Hyperspace War that you were so determined proved that technology had progressed by leaps and bounds. Ironically since Corsair rips the cores out of Stars, that also means that Corsair has a Hyperspace Drive, a Navicomputer, and a Deflector Shield strong enough to withstand the Tidal Forces of a Star becoming a black hole and engines strong enough to get it into Hyperspace despite said star collapsing in on itself...

 

You mean "The Celestials predate all other civilzations other than the Columi." Which is debatable because the Columi by your own argument (timeline stating that life first evolved in 5,000,000,000 BBY according to Wookiepedia) evolved 1,000,000 years before the first mention of the Celestials on that same timeline. Granted if we want to get strict, the ancestors of the Chevin predate even the Columi. In fact the first mention of the Celestials on the Galactic Timeline, is when they go into a self-imposed exile and create the Corellian System in 1,000,000 BBY. The Columi had already mastered Interstellar Spaceflight by then. But it is at least possible that both civilizations had roughly the same level of technology for roughly the same length of time.

 

Well all I'm aware of is that during the Great Hyperspace War, deflector shields were not in use and as the Wookiee page says, they instead relied on thick armour. And land based deflector shields came in much later. As did other technologies pertaining to that. Likewise navicomputers were only invented during the Mandalorian Wars, before that they relied on hyperspace beacons. It may have been invented by Celestials, but that technology was evidently lost.

 

Do you even know what a navigational computer is? That thing you use in your car to navigate (GPS) is a navigational computer. Or rather the satellite it connects to is. Fact is, we all have access to Navicomputers here on Earth and we haven't even broken Earth's Orbit with manned spacecraft yet. To assume that the people in Star Wars were able to travel to other stars without a computer capable of telling them where a given planet is is ludicrous. And hell, even if they are using Hyperspace Beacons, the computers used to track those Hyperspace Beacons and plot a course based on them, are Navigational Computers!!!!! Not to mention, they had to get to the locations that they planted the Hyperspace Beacons at in the first place, which implies some sort of navigational computer to begin with.

 

I will concede that within the humanoid civilizations there has been a bit of innovation since the Great Hyperspace War, assuming you concede that over the span of 5,000 years that innovation has not amounted to very much. In fact in the time it took the Empire to build the Death Star much of the rest of the Galaxy appears to have gone bankrupt (probably for very good reasons seeing as how it would cost us in the real world more capital than exists in the entire world to even build the infrastructure of the Death Star, and that is ignoring the weapons, computers, and all the other technological goodies that the Death Star is chock full of).

Edited June 4, 2013 by XantosCledwin