Star Wars, and the clean energy issues of City Planets

[XantosCledwin]

So, I have been thinking quite extensively. Nar Shaddaa, Curroscant, and any number of other cities that encompass the entirety of their planets should not be possible from an energy production stand point unless they are using incredibly unconventional methods of producing energy for their entire city. The reason I say this is because it would take Nuclear Fusion on the order of magnitude that powers a star and nothing less to power Curroscant for the entire time that it has been occupied (if you go by the timeline that Republic Questline involving Pat-aK suggests). Which is to say since the Gree Enclave first built it. They were a contemporary power with the Celestials themselves who thrived prior to 1,000,000 Before the Battle of Yevon which is several millenia before the movies and orders of magnitude longer than the whole of human civilization on Earth but not necessarily the human species on Earth.

 

To suggest that this advanced society who is older than any other society by the time our game takes place save the remnants of the celestials... a society who by their very manner of speech are designated to think in manners foreign from that of humans (in manners that promote balance to the world around them, would create a city planet and not find a way to power it, that was both clean, efficient and darn near eternal (meaning it has to last longer than stars). Is silly.

 

there is no known technology within modern human understanding that meets these requirements. There is however a theoretical method by which to harness the energy from a rotating black hole. This process would require such vast amounts of power to safely get close to the black hole in the first place, and access to hyperspace travel, warp technology or some faster than light mode of travel in order to get to the vacinity of the Black Hole in the first place. Not to mention technology to prevent one from being affected by time dilation.

 

But for a society that successfully created a planet on which a city basically built itself over the entire landscape, oceans, and all other known planetary obstacles and continued to do so well into the future after being inhabited by people going so far as to generate some means of preventing the eventual collapse of the city in on itself when it became too heavy to support its own weight. I don't think the trifling matter of gravitational anomalies like Black Holes are going to present much of a challenge.

 

And this is going so far as to blatantly ignore the existence of the Force in the Star Wars Universe. Once you include the Force as a factor in getting this nearly inexhaustible supply of clean and to most people concerned safe energy... the possibilities of being sucked into a black hole while trying to safely harness this energy approaches negative infinity.

 

Now you might all think this is some silly nonsense that I am proposing. But the theory of harnessing energy from Black Holes actually exists. It was proposed by Roger Penrose. Who among other things was among the ones who first discovered what a Black Hole actually is. Now I don't know if this theory was known to George Lucas when he proposed Coruscant or Repulsor Cars (which are allegedly powered by harnessing and reversing the polarity of a black holes gravity which seems silly to me) but it is possible that this theory could explain how the city of Coruscant manages to supply enough power for a couple trillion living beings, filter the breathing air for the beings in the lower levels of coruscant, continuously upgrade itself, alter itself to fit the desires of the people living in it (as could be seen by the fact that it spontaneously created mass landing platforms and parade grounds for the Clone Armies and their capital ships which I don't think were there previously) and somehow has all this power millenia after it was created in the first place. Unless the Gree were so stupid as to actually attempt to use Star Lifting as their method of powering a city planet forever.

 

P.S. my apologies I always misspell coruscant...

Edited May 13, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Crip]

Maybe they dont get their power from the planet, or not all of it.

[AlexDougherty]

You are overthinking it, most of the technology is created to fill plot holes, so obviously they created zero point energy generators, but to stop them being on ships and they have to be the size of a moon, which limits them to planets(rich planets at that).

 

As a side effect the lower levels age at a vastly reduced rate, allowing the cities ontop to survive without worrying about their foundations collapsing. Unless a madman with a fleet conducts a space bombardment, but the chances of that happening for a fourth time are remote.

 

(Telos, Taris, and some planet mentioned in the smuggler story if you're interested)

 

Edited May 16, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[XantosCledwin]

Zero Point Energy doesn't even begin to explain the amount of energy that would be required to power city planets. At least not to those people familiar with the Stargate universe. The City of Atlantis required 3 Zero Point Modules to operate at peak efficiency at any given time, and that city was butt loads smaller than Coruscant.

[AlexDougherty]

Zero Point Energy doesn't even begin to explain the amount of energy that would be required to power city planets. At least not to those people familiar with the Stargate universe. The City of Atlantis required 3 Zero Point Modules to operate at peak efficiency at any given time, and that city was butt loads smaller than Coruscant.

 

Actually Zero Point energy would explain it, there is more zero point energy in a teaspoon of water (not that the substance is important) than there is energy in all the fuels that have ever been on earth, or so several promenent physicists including Einstein have said.

 

The Zero Point Modules in Stargate Atlantis were not true Zero Point Energy converter/generators, since they derived their energy from artificial universes. This means that part of their energy was coopted into maintaining those universes and we have no idea how efficient they were. Science fiction has no fixed concept on how efficient zero point energy might be, mostly because we are hundreds if not thousands of years from figuring out the basics behind it, if it's even possible.

[rawtravel]

Couldn't they just use solar panals? Besiee power, don't they also need to pruduce oxygen? and scrub CO2 out of the air. No trees, right?

[Rezingreenboul]

Not that it matters really, because they are 2 different universes, hence 2 different rules. But i believe Atlantis was able to operate with just a single nearly depleted ZPM. They had life support, lights, computer terminals. It wasn't until they needed to cloak the city, submerge it, and fly the damn thing across the galaxy that they needed more. Going by those rules it seems completely possible to me that a couple hundred spread throughout even a planet sized city could power it almost indefinitely.

[KaitRaven]

You guys underestimate just how much energy fusion, specifically the Sun, produces. Right now, human civilization consumes about 150 PWh (petawatt-hours) in a year. A rough estimate of how much of the Sun's energy reaches Earth is about 1.8 * 10^17 joules/s. Over the course of a year, this is 1,537,920 PWh of power. As a civilization, we using the equivalent of 0.01% of the solar output that reaches the Earth. If you think that's staggering, the solar power that is wasted beaming off into space is many orders of magnitude greater. Collect just a small fraction of that, and you have enough energy to power not one, but multiple Coruscants.

 

In a civilization as advanced as the one in Star Wars, I have to imagine they're capable of constructing large scale collectors in solar orbit, and beaming and/or storing it as needed. Why do you need generators when stars are effectively extremely potent, long lasting, natural generators? With the virtually limitless energy from stars, you could produce a vast supply of antimatter as fuel to take along with you, if needed. This is without super-exotic fantasy elements such as a ZPM.

[Projawa]

Different constants. They wield energy weapons that carry enormous power in a package the size of a blaster, antigravity, hyperdrives. Obviously they can generate, harness, and shape energy on a more vast and sophisticated scale. Which is ironic when you go to Hoth and all the NPCs are complaining about the cold. Edited May 30, 2013 by Projawa

[XantosCledwin]

Actually Zero Point energy would explain it, there is more zero point energy in a teaspoon of water (not that the substance is important) than there is energy in all the fuels that have ever been on earth, or so several promenent physicists including Einstein have said.

 

The Zero Point Modules in Stargate Atlantis were not true Zero Point Energy converter/generators, since they derived their energy from artificial universes. This means that part of their energy was coopted into maintaining those universes and we have no idea how efficient they were. Science fiction has no fixed concept on how efficient zero point energy might be, mostly because we are hundreds if not thousands of years from figuring out the basics behind it, if it's even possible.

 

This isn't entirely true. The ZPM's from Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis (their featured in both series) did not create and sustain the alternate universes, as was made evident by the episode that featured the Alternate Universe Rodney McKay who came to this universe to stop the drain that the ZPM's caused on his own universe (among other things). Rather they literally drained pre-existing universes of their Zero-Point Energy on a massive scale. Going so far as to collapse those alternate universes in on themselves.

 

Not that it matters really, because they are 2 different universes, hence 2 different rules. But i believe Atlantis was able to operate with just a single nearly depleted ZPM. They had life support, lights, computer terminals. It wasn't until they needed to cloak the city, submerge it, and fly the damn thing across the galaxy that they needed more. Going by those rules it seems completely possible to me that a couple hundred spread throughout even a planet sized city could power it almost indefinitely.

 

In the first season, starting from the first episode of Atlantis, the Atlantis Expedition did not even have ONE Zero-Point Module. Rather they operated the vast majority of what systems they had access to via Nequadria Power Cells. Which, might I add comes with the serious side issue of overloaded Nequadria Power Cells that go off with more megatons of explosive force than the strongest atom bomb.

 

A single ZPM would be enough to power Atlantis' basic computer systems (not including the Library of the Ancients) for several decades. However it would not be sufficient to operate the Star Drive, or Atlantis' Defense Systems (i.e. the Shields). It is however sufficient to operate the Cloak for a limited time.

 

To operate the Shields they needed at least 2 ZPM's or most of a single ZPM's power supply. To operate the Star Drive they needed all THREE ZPM's.

 

You guys underestimate just how much energy fusion, specifically the Sun, produces.

 

No, I really don't. Some of the oldest stars in the Galaxy date back as far as 13.2 Billion years. The Universe itself is estimated to be around 13.7 billion years old (earth's own star is only roughly 4.6 billion years old). Black Holes however have practically existed since the birth of the universe due to the fact that virtually every single Galaxy in existence today has a Super-massive Black Hole in it's core that helps maintain it's galactic balance.

Edited May 30, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

Couldn't they just use nuclear fusion? Isn't that like an unlimited power source? So surely they could just build thousands and thousands of nuclear fusion plants on colossal scales throughout the vast expanses of the galaxy to power these planets?

[Beniboybling]

No, I really don't. Some of the oldest stars in the Galaxy date back as far as 13.2 Billion years. The Universe itself is estimated to be around 13.7 billion years old (earth's own star is only roughly 4.6 billion years old). Black Holes however have practically existed since the birth of the universe due to the fact that virtually every single Galaxy in existence today has a Super-massive Black Hole in it's core that helps maintain it's galactic balance.

What's your point here? It would seem to be that KaitRaven has the answer to your solution.

 

Futhermore, getting all your power from one source, the black hole in the center of the galaxy, would be immensely inefficient. Not only is the Deep Core extremely hazardous, but hyperspace travel is incredibly elongated (thanks to dark matter and gravity pulls) meaning it can take almost a day just to get from the Deep Core to Coruscant. And that's if they even manage to plot a safe hyperspace route to the center of the galaxy. Which let's face it isn't going to happen.

[TalonVII]

Actually there's two very simple ways they could do it.

 

1. MULTITUDE power stations that cover one chunk of the planet. Infact IIRC each huge building had it's own power generator built into it.

 

2. Thermal power. Drill deep enough into the planet's outer crust into the upper core and control the outflow, endless energy and then some.

[AlexDougherty]

This isn't entirely true. The ZPM's from Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis (their featured in both series) did not create and sustain the alternate universes, as was made evident by the episode that featured the Alternate Universe Rodney McKay who came to this universe to stop the drain that the ZPM's caused on his own universe (among other things). Rather they literally drained pre-existing universes of their Zero-Point Energy on a massive scale. Going so far as to collapse those alternate universes in on themselves.

That episode was not about a ZPM, it was about a human attempt to replicate ZPM's, they built a "Quantum Bridge" to drain another universe's energy (or was it to dump energy?), any how it was not a ZPM that was the problem. In several episodes, they actually say that ZPM's drain artificial universes, they also say it several times in Stargate SG1, the ancients wouldn't drain existing universes as this was against their Ethics/Morals.

 

In the first season, starting from the first episode of Atlantis, the Atlantis Expedition did not even have ONE Zero-Point Module. Rather they operated the vast majority of what systems they had access to via Nequadria Power Cells. Which, might I add comes with the serious side issue of overloaded Nequadria Power Cells that go off with more megatons of explosive force than the strongest atom bomb.

 

Those were Naquita power cells, which were much more stable than Naquadria, although I agreed that every Naquita generator was esentially and unexploded bomb, but then technically so is every nuclear power station (I do understand the difference, but I'm making a point)

Edited May 31, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[AlexDougherty]

Actually there's two very simple ways they could do it.

 

1. MULTITUDE power stations that cover one chunk of the planet. Infact IIRC each huge building had it's own power generator built into it.

 

2. Thermal power. Drill deep enough into the planet's outer crust into the upper core and control the outflow, endless energy and then some.

 

Thermal power is only unlimited if the gravetic effects of obitting a sun replenishes the heat quicker than it is drained, Which it coruscant's case is doubtful, if the heat is not replenished then the planet slowly gets colder.

Edited May 31, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[abishe]

and yet nobody mention the Z machine.

 

this can not only provide clean, but also endless energy.

this is not fiction, they even build one in this universe.

[TalonVII]

Thermal power is only unlimited if the gravetic effects of obitting a sun replenishes the heat quicker than it is drained, Which it coruscant's case is doubtful, if the heat is not replenished then the planet slowly gets colder.

 

But that would take MILLIONS of years to do. In the short term, plenty of power.

[XantosCledwin]

Couldn't they just use nuclear fusion? Isn't that like an unlimited power source? So surely they could just build thousands and thousands of nuclear fusion plants on colossal scales throughout the vast expanses of the galaxy to power these planets?

 

You do know how Black Holes and Supernova's are formed don't you? Black Holes in particular are formed when the Nuclear Fusion in the core of the star that powers it stops happening and the Star collapses in on itself under its own weight.

 

What's your point here? It would seem to be that KaitRaven has the answer to your solution.

 

Futhermore, getting all your power from one source, the black hole in the center of the galaxy, would be immensely inefficient. Not only is the Deep Core extremely hazardous, but hyperspace travel is incredibly elongated (thanks to dark matter and gravity pulls) meaning it can take almost a day just to get from the Deep Core to Coruscant. And that's if they even manage to plot a safe hyperspace route to the center of the galaxy. Which let's face it isn't going to happen.

 

I never said that the Black Hole that supplies the power to a city planet has to be the Super Massive Black Hole that maintains Galactic Balance. First off there is no guarantee that Super Massives actually meet the requirements for the Penrose Method of obtaining energy from Black Holes (the Black Hole itself has to be rotating in order for the Penrose Process to work). Second, like you said, navigating the Galactic Core (which is not to be confused with the Core Worlds mentioned in Star Wars) is nearly impossible to do safely due to the large clumps of Star Matter all tumbled up together and the tidal forces of all those stars (not to mention the Supermassive itself) pulling on each other that close together.

 

It would be far more efficient to use a Black Hole further away from the Core for this purpose.

 

Actually there's two very simple ways they could do it.

 

1. MULTITUDE power stations that cover one chunk of the planet. Infact IIRC each huge building had it's own power generator built into it.

 

2. Thermal power. Drill deep enough into the planet's outer crust into the upper core and control the outflow, endless energy and then some.

 

Do you have any idea how much heat that many power plants would generate on a planet? There is not enough coolant in the entire galaxy of Star Wars to supply that many power stations with sufficient cooling systems so as to prevent the entire planet from over heating.

 

Your second option assumes the planet of Curoscant even has a molten core the way that Earth has from which to draw Thermal Energy. It is far more likely given the way that the city is built, that it is instead an entirely artificial planet. It isn't unheard of for artificial planetoids to exist within the Star Wars Universe (Death Star), so it isn't too far a leap to assume that the Ancient Gree managed to create a full size planet artificially.

 

The fact that Curoscant itself has to have a different planetary mass or some other means of alternate gravity to account for the fact that all of those buildings don't just collapse on top of each other, there is no way that the planet has a standard earth like crust, mantle, and core composition. Especially if it is located in it's solar system's Goldilocks Zone (which is a requirement of life anywhere unless that life is not carbon based like we are). Thus it only makes sense that Curoscant is an artificial planet with it's own rules and regulations regarding how gravity is determined, possibly even relying on artificial gravity in some way.

 

But that would take MILLIONS of years to do. In the short term, plenty of power.

 

Curoscant's infrastructure was designed by the Gree. The Gree are contemporary with the Rakata and the Celestials. The Celestials at the very least have existed as of the time of the Clone Wars for over 1,000,000 years. It is at the very least concievable that the city of Curoscant has likewise also existed for around that long, even if it hasn't been inhabited by humans for that long.

Edited June 1, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[TalonVII]

You do know how Black Holes and Supernova's are formed don't you? Black Holes in particular are formed when the Nuclear Fusion in the core of the star that powers it stops happening and the Star collapses in on itself under its own weight.

 

 

 

I never said that the Black Hole that supplies the power to a city planet has to be the Super Massive Black Hole that maintains Galactic Balance. First off there is no guarantee that Super Massives actually meet the requirements for the Penrose Method of obtaining energy from Black Holes (the Black Hole itself has to be rotating in order for the Penrose Process to work). Second, like you said, navigating the Galactic Core (which is not to be confused with the Core Worlds mentioned in Star Wars) is nearly impossible to do safely due to the large clumps of Star Matter all tumbled up together and the tidal forces of all those stars (not to mention the Supermassive itself) pulling on each other that close together.

 

It would be far more efficient to use a Black Hole further away from the Core for this purpose.

 

 

 

Do you have any idea how much heat that many power plants would generate on a planet? There is not enough coolant in the entire galaxy of Star Wars to supply that many power stations with sufficient cooling systems so as to prevent the entire planet from over heating.

 

Your second option assumes the planet of Curoscant even has a molten core the way that Earth has from which to draw Thermal Energy. It is far more likely given the way that the city is built, that it is instead an entirely artificial planet. It isn't unheard of for artificial planetoids to exist within the Star Wars Universe (Death Star), so it isn't too far a leap to assume that the Ancient Gree managed to create a full size planet artificially.

 

The fact that Curoscant itself has to have a different planetary mass or some other means of alternate gravity to account for the fact that all of those buildings don't just collapse on top of each other, there is no way that the planet has a standard earth like crust, mantle, and core composition. Especially if it is located in it's solar system's Goldilocks Zone (which is a requirement of life anywhere unless that life is not carbon based like we are). Thus it only makes sense that Curoscant is an artificial planet with it's own rules and regulations regarding how gravity is determined, possibly even relying on artificial gravity in some way.

 

 

 

Curoscant's infrastructure was designed by the Gree. The Gree are contemporary with the Rakata and the Celestials. The Celestials at the very least have existed as of the time of the Clone Wars for over 1,000,000 years. It is at the very least concievable that the city of Curoscant has likewise also existed for around that long, even if it hasn't been inhabited by humans for that long.

 

You must not know much about power plants. Considering I do let me clue you in. Do you know 1 nuclear power plant in texas basically powers Huston and Dallas? just 1. That it takes what 4 Nuclear power plants to power the entire eastern seaboard?

 

And In starwars, most of those gigiantic sky scrapers, come with their own reactors/generators built into them.

 

Or the Fact that one reactor from a Star Destroyer could power a couple of city blocks on it's own?

 

Come on, clean power on courscant, not really that impossible. All you do[which I am sure they would do] is instead of trying to power the entire planet with one reactor[which like you said almost impossible to do] you just power a SECTOR of the planet. That is not that hard to do. You basically turn each section into it's own city, then simply power that 'city'.

 

Problem solved.

[XantosCledwin]

You must not know much about power plants. Considering I do let me clue you in. Do you know 1 nuclear power plant in texas basically powers Huston and Dallas? just 1. That it takes what 4 Nuclear power plants to power the entire eastern seaboard?

 

And In starwars, most of those gigiantic sky scrapers, come with their own reactors/generators built into them.

 

Or the Fact that one reactor from a Star Destroyer could power a couple of city blocks on it's own?

 

Come on, clean power on courscant, not really that impossible. All you do[which I am sure they would do] is instead of trying to power the entire planet with one reactor[which like you said almost impossible to do] you just power a SECTOR of the planet. That is not that hard to do. You basically turn each section into it's own city, then simply power that 'city'.

 

Problem solved.

 

You must not know about Coruscant. Let me clue you in. Coruscant has a diameter (buildings included) of exactly 12,240 Kilometers. The planet Earth's diameter is exactly 12,742 Kilometers. Meaning that our planet is exactly 502 Kilometers BIGGER than Coruscant. That said, the population of Earth is sitting at roughly 6.974 Billion people. Meanwhile with 502 Kilometers less space than the Earth has, Coruscant is capable of permanently housing either 1,000,000,000,000 people (assuming it counts using a short scale) or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 people (assuming it counts using a long scale). Either way that is at least a difference of 993,026,000,000 people. Thats a lot of people. And it would take a massive amount of conventional Nuclear Power Plants to come up with the power for 1 trillion people no matter what the scale you use to count to a trillion.

 

I think people in this forum are just completely failing to comprehend how massive the population of Coruscant actually is.

Edited June 1, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[TalonVII]

Yes I do, and you should read book two of the X-Wing Series called "Wedge's Gamble" where the New Republic Retakes Courscant from the Empire.

 

Good look into how Courscant is protected and powered. Do me a favor, read it.

[lennchu]

They got small little rat's, Hamsters and guinnie pigs running is small wheels. They produce electricity/power for the planets.

[Trimaxion]

The thought occurs that the problem of overheating with nuclear power and the problem of core cooling with geothermal energy might actually solve each other if combined. Edited June 1, 2013 by Trimaxion

[Ugolino]

Apparently, there's a single planet responsible for somehow supplying power to half of the Core worlds. It was attacked during the Clone Wars, causing massive blackouts.

[Beniboybling]

You do know how Black Holes and Supernova's are formed don't you? Black Holes in particular are formed when the Nuclear Fusion in the core of the star that powers it stops happening and the Star collapses in on itself under its own weight.

What are you saying here... that nuclear fusion is unstable?

I never said that the Black Hole that supplies the power to a city planet has to be the Super Massive Black Hole that maintains Galactic Balance. First off there is no guarantee that Super Massives actually meet the requirements for the Penrose Method of obtaining energy from Black Holes (the Black Hole itself has to be rotating in order for the Penrose Process to work). Second, like you said, navigating the Galactic Core (which is not to be confused with the Core Worlds mentioned in Star Wars) is nearly impossible to do safely due to the large clumps of Star Matter all tumbled up together and the tidal forces of all those stars (not to mention the Supermassive itself) pulling on each other that close together.

 

It would be far more efficient to use a Black Hole further away from the Core for this purpose.

You have a point there, I didn't think of that. However in times of war these black holes would become hotly contested, which could lead to a complete collapse in infrastructure across the galaxy. And given the number of wars that have occurred in the galaxy I think a fuel source closer to home so to speak would be a lot more secure.

 

But then again, given that there is no evidence of this being the case, we can assume its not an option that has been pursued.

 

Oh and we actually get an insight into how Coruscant is powered in a TCW episode. This to be specific. Not sure exactly how it works but perhaps you can make an interpretation.