"Master CraftsMan" Legacy_Title needs a Gender Neutral change...

[RepublicChicken]

I just stumbled on this post and I have to say... Choose your battles. Why does this get to you? I studied academic research and writing. It's a general term for anyone that crafts. You're a woMAN. Not a wo. It suits you just fine.

Couldn't agree more. I don't care if I'm a crafter or craftsman. It's not worse than saying "hey, man" to a woman, or even "dude". (no, "dudette" is not a word.)

 

But what has bothered me since I first started playing at launch is all the sir's and lord's I hear all the time. Would it really be too much to ask to be called ma'am or lady? It doesn't even make any sense to call me sir. The only explanation I've heard is that they are greeting the rank, but that makes no sense at all. I mean, think about it. I'm a smuggler who doesn't care about the law at all, and I'm on a remote planet in the outskirts of the known galaxy, in a tavern full of the most shady scum of the galaxy trying to sell stolen goods. And they call me "sir" because they greet my rank? Really? It sort of makes sense for the trooper, but even that is questionable. Ever watched Star Trek? Every time they talked to Captain Kathryn Janeway, they greeted her with either "captain" or "ma'am". No sir there.

 

And as for female Lord's in the sith, that makes no sense either. Darth Vader was a man, therefore ever sith lord throughout history has to be called Lord? Even if they are female? Imagine if Leia not only got in touch with her Force, but if she became a sith lord in the new movies. Would you really be ok with people calling her Lord Leia? It. Makes. No. Sense!

 

To top it off, there's the good, old Lord of the Rings Online. I was running around as the Hero of Lone-lands for quite a while, but they later changed it to Heroine of the Lone-lands. If even the sexist LotRO can, why can't Star Wars?

[Vil-lynne]

...not worse than saying "hey, man" to a woman, or even "dude" ... Would it really be too much to ask to be called ma'am or lady?...

 

I totally agree! Being greeted with "hey, man" or referred to as "dude" is rather generic these days; I simply have a word choice preference for a modern alternative to the old-fashion Craftsman title. Regarding your preference to being referred to as "ma'am or lady", or my preference for "Ms. or Lady", the developers are all about the menz. Consideration for women, and npc children, are merely brief afterthoughts, if that. Non-male players/characters have to behave like total "squeaky wheels" for even the slightest hope of getting reasonable and respectful attention from the developers. From my experience, it seems as if the developers and server moderators don't even consider actual sexism:jawa_mad: to be a problem:jawa_eek:

Edited May 11, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[RepublicChicken]

Consideration for women, and npc children, are merely brief afterthoughts, if that. Non-male players/characters have to behave like total "squeaky wheels" for even the slightest hope of getting reasonable and respectful attention from the developers. From my experience, it seems as if the developers and server moderators don't even consider actual sexism:jawa_mad: to be a problem:jawa_eek:

Oh, sexism is definitely a problem in this game. And sadly, in most games. Imagine a game like Gears of War, with Marcus being female? Women can shoot too, you know. Or a Goddess of War? I might play that one, if they left out the sex-bit. The problem is that'll never happen, just like we probably will never see a Call of Duty with a female main character, or another Super Princess Peach any time soon. (I would love a Super Princess Peach Galaxy, though with less focus on her emotions, and more focus on her awesomeness.)

 

Anyway, what can be done about this? Sexism is definitely a problem, but unless we activly try to do something about it, it might never change.

Edited May 11, 2013 by RepublicChicken

[beefyandbeef]

If political correctness was a person, I would shoot him in the face....twice...

 

Political correctness is a bunch of bologna. Women, get over it! It's fine how it is!

 

The word man typical refers to humans as a species... I mean, what is it now, mail carrier instead of mailman? Firefighter instead firemen, police officer instead of policeman...

 

 

TL;DR: Who gives a crap!

Edited May 12, 2013 by beefyandbeef

[Darth_Moonshadow]

This would all be a valid and powerful discussion with the argument in your favor.

 

That is, if you had not forgotten one very key rule in this galaxy.

 

This galaxy is a phallocracy. Women don't actually matter. You fall into two groups. Sexy eye candy dancing girls or sexy eye candy damsels in distress royals.

 

I'd tell you to take it up with Lucas, seeing as it was his intention for this saga, but now with our new Disney masters, you'll have to talk to them.

 

And I'll just spoil it for you right now: Disney doesn't give a crap either. As a female in a Disney owned IP, you have three aspirations to achieve now: Design clothing, dance and sing for others amusement and get yourself a boyfriend.

 

And before you complain that males have it better, as a man in a Disney owned IP, I am now a bumbling moron with no real sense of consequence for my actions that will inevitably fail my goals, but through a series of terrible disguises and a heartfelt but obviously fake tender moment, I will come out on top and in no way be a better being for it.

 

Thanks, Disney and Lucas!

[swtonewbie]

But what has bothered me since I first started playing at launch is all the sir's and lord's I hear all the time. Would it really be too much to ask to be called ma'am or lady? It doesn't even make any sense to call me sir.

 

Ever watched Star Trek? Every time they talked to Captain Kathryn Janeway, they greeted her with either "captain" or "ma'am". No sir there.

 

Did you stop to consider other reasons, or did you automatically jump to the conclusion that BW did it to oppress females or because they didnt believe in equality or something? The game has an interactive dialogue, with many branching choices. Going with just 'sir' as a generic title cuts down on all the voiceover acting work work by roughly half. The voiceactor would have to say each line with sir and ma'am, lord or lordette. The dev then has to make sure the quest system properly recognizes the player as a male or female character. With the current system they went with what was time and cost efficient. Luckily for them they were able to explain it all away with the 'ohh back in the olden days they used to call everyone sir'.

 

And your Star Trek reference? i'm actually a big fan of ST: Voyager. Did you know that in the pilot (episode name Caretaker) there is a scene early in the episode where Capt Janeway greets new officer Ensign Kim and goes over her preferred form of being addressed? Here is how the scene goes:

 

**Ensign Kim and Lt Paris enter Capt Janeways ready room and stand before her**

Capt Janeway: Gentlemen, welcome aboard Voyager

Ensign Kim: Thank you sir

Capt Janeway: Mr Kim...at ease before you sprain something

**Ensign Kim relaxes**

Capt Janeway: Ensign, despite Starfleet protocol, i dont like being addressed as "Sir"

Ensign Kim: I'm sorry....ma'am

Capt Janeway: ma'am is acceptable in a crunch, but i'd prefer Captain

 

So you see right there, in the Star Trek universe Janeway says that it is Starfleet protocol. But apparently in the ST universe, a higher ranking person can request that their juniors call them something else. It's like this in the IRL military too...dont know how enforcement is now, but i got out about 5 years ago. Just a few years ago it wasnt uncommon to have your sergeant request that you call him by his first name, or nickname or w/e in a relaxed environment but in an official setting they would want you to call them by their proper title. You see this in movies and TV shows all the time too. Remember Good Morning Vietnam when Robin Williams called the Sergeant Major "Sir" when they first met? and the other guy said "SIR! Airman i work for a living, you will address me as Sergeant Major!".

 

But anyways enough about all that...I'm opposed to your original idea OP. Not because its right or wrong, but because it will just create more work for the devs. There was a discussion on the new player forums about the level of intimacy between player and companion. But someone suggested that BW go back and give players the option to choose their player orientation (hetero, bi, and homosexual). That in turn would mean they would have to update dialogue options. But i dont agree with that persons suggestion either, not because i am against SGR, its because it creates more work for the devs. I dont know if you played WoW, but the previous expansion they went back and reworked A LOT of the old content. As a result the new content that they normally push on an expansion was lacking. Anytime a suggestion comes up that requires the dev to go back and redo old content, what i'm afraid of is it could have the potential to affect development of new content. Because of that i will just learn how to deal with little additions that i dont fully like or agree with. But of course if something is bugged or gamebreaking i will speak up.

Edited May 12, 2013 by swtonewbie

[Glamasaurus]

Now, just for fun *smiles*, let's list some examples of job title differences due, at least in part, to the fragile male ego: secretary->office assistant , nurse->male nurse , cook->chef, flight attendant, and many more (I'll google them later and update when I have some free time).

 

A secretary is actually a higher position than an office assistant. Also a chef is trained and a cook is anyone who cooks.

[Vil-lynne]

This would all be a valid and powerful discussion with the argument in your favor...if you had not forgotten one very key rule...This galaxy is a phallocracy. Women don't actually matter.

Only now, in the end, do I truly realize the full power of the dark side of Lucas/Disney sexism.

 

...cut-scenes...it will just create more work for the devs...

I'm actually in agreement with you about denying cut-scene changes; I appreciate every second, even when referred to as Sir or Lord. Why? Because, as a developer, I fully comprehend the tremendous amount of time, effort and expense that went into its creation; and, I would never wish a reworking or rehiring of writers, directors, expression and voice actors upon Bioware. It would truly be a massive waste of vital resources. And, I do empathize with the Devs when players, who are development-ignorant, think they are making simple requests, which really aren't, and then get upset when the Devs are forced to decline the suggestion due to budget constraints.

 

However! As a developer, I also realize that changing a Legacy Title display name from "Master Craftsman" to "Master Crafter|Artisan" is no more work than editing a single cell of an Excel spreadsheet (ie. database table). So, there really is no reason, other than blatant stubborn sexism, to spend 15 seconds locating and editing the data in that field, Bioware!

Edited May 12, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[Asavrede]

Craftsman is what it's called. It's also called a manholecover - you think we should change that too? "Personholecover" sound better to you?

 

All this symbolic chance just for change's sake is retarded. Using language the way it is intended does not make you sexist. Rebelling against it makes you seem petty and daft.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Asavrede

[Leafy_Bug]

Sorry OP, nothing to nitpick here as Master Craftsman has no hint of sexism in it. You are pushing for a synonym usage because in your opinion this term is not being used correctly. Not signed as there is nothing wrong with this except a case of feminism taken too far. Edited May 12, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[chokoss]

Just for information, in the french version of swtor, there are both male and female title. Still it's a bit bugged because if you are a girl you see all the poeple titles as female gender evenif they are male. It works fine for your charater anyway.

 

So I guess it's not too much hard work for the devs to add two versions of the title in english as well.

[Estelindis]

I would ask less for the title to be made neutral and more for it to be made gender sensitive, like Flyboy/Flygirl. I would like my title to read as Master Craftswoman when I am playing my female characters. It always feels a bit weird for me to display "Craftsman" over a woman.

 

Anyway, this would have the added advantage that no one playing a male character would suffer a title change. They can keep their Master Craftsman title. It suits them.

 

Regarding all this talk of remaking language in a PC mold, I wouldn't be in favour of all of it. But people should be aware of the power of language to form images and how those images inform views about what's standard, normal, or archetypal. Ask yourself, when someone says the word "mankind," does an image of a woman pop into your head before an image of a man? Probably not. Yet many people claim that this is a perfectly appropriate "gender neutral" term. Think about it.

[beefyandbeef]

It always feels a bit weird for me to display "Craftsman" over a woman.

 

 

Master craftswoman

Edited May 12, 2013 by beefyandbeef

[swtonewbie]

 

However! As a developer, I also realize that changing a Legacy Title display name from "Master Craftsman" to "Master Crafter|Artisan" is no more work than editing a single cell of an Excel spreadsheet (ie. database table). So, there really is no reason, other than blatant stubborn sexism, to spend 15 seconds locating and editing the data in that field, Bioware!

 

Why should it stop and end at getting that one title changed? today it may be you and that one title. Tomorrow it may be someone else and mission voiceovers. Day after that may be someone that doesnt disagree with dancer outfits. Thats usually why you dont see every little request or suggestion being fulfilled by dev teams, even if it is just one easy request. If they grant you this one request they could get flooded with a bunch of other requests. The playerbase is just itching for that opportunity. In EVE online i recall seeing a Dev log onto the game one time to check the status after a patch. Immediately they were inundated with requests about this and that and people started tossing out suggestions. Hey why dont you guys do this with that, hey you guys should do this because it makes it easier, and so on.

Edited May 12, 2013 by swtonewbie

[swtonewbie]

Just for information, in the french version of swtor, there are both male and female title. Still it's a bit bugged because if you are a girl you see all the poeple titles as female gender evenif they are male. It works fine for your charater anyway.

 

So I guess it's not too much hard work for the devs to add two versions of the title in english as well.

 

I'm guessing thats how the French version was released?

 

There is a difference between releasing something with option B, versus releasing something with option A and later on changing or adding in option B as well.

 

But anyways enough about all that...I'm opposed to your original idea OP. Not because its right or wrong, but because it will just create more work for the devs. There was a discussion on the new player forums about the level of intimacy between player and companion. But someone suggested that BW go back and give players the option to choose their player orientation (hetero, bi, and homosexual). That in turn would mean they would have to update dialogue options. But i dont agree with that persons suggestion either, not because i am against SGR, its because it creates more work for the devs. I dont know if you played WoW, but the previous expansion they went back and reworked A LOT of the old content. As a result the new content that they normally push on an expansion was lacking. Anytime a suggestion comes up that requires the dev to go back and redo old content, what i'm afraid of is it could have the potential to affect development of new content. Because of that i will just learn how to deal with little additions that i dont fully like or agree with. But of course if something is bugged or gamebreaking i will speak up.

 

Dont say that it isnt hard work, because neither you or I knows exactly what it would entail. Plus your post actually contradicts that when you mentioned that it was a bit bugged.

[Estelindis]

Master craftswoman

Because the addition of a prefix doesn't in any way change the meaning of a word?

Let's tell that to unhappy, subliterate, paranormal, etc.

 

Without wo- to start it, the end of that word is man. With wo- to start it, it's woman. I want to see woman as the description of my female character, not man. I'm sure that's not too hard for you to understand.

[RepublicChicken]

Political correctness is a bunch of bologna. Women, get over it! It's fine how it is!

But that's where you're wrong. No offense, but you're a guy, right? And being a guy, it often makes you 'blind' to the whole issue. It's not a problem for you, as you see what you want to see. You don't pay attention to the real issue here. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. But think about it like this: How many important asian characters are there in this game? Or black people? Have you even paid attention to it? Most non-asian and non-black people don't even notice it at all, as they have no reason to. But as a female, I easily notice how few important women there are here. There are a few, yes, but they are mostly hidden in the background.

 

I'm actually in agreement with you about the cut-scenes; I appreciate every second, even when referred to as Sir or Lord. Why? Because, as a developer, I fully comprehend the tremendous amount of time, effort and expense that went into its creation; and, I would never wish a reworking or rehiring of writers, directors and voice actors upon Bioware. It would truly be a massive waste of vital resources.

True, but the easiest way would be to simply not say 'sir' at all, and rather display it in text. That way it would be simple to change it to 'ma'am for the ladies. i know that could sound strange, but keep n mind how often we've been allowed to pick our own name, yet the voice actors never actually say it. How is that different?

 

However! As a developer, I also realize that changing a Legacy Title display name from "Master Craftsman" to "Master Crafter|Artisan" is no more work than editing a single cell of an Excel spreadsheet (ie. database table). So, there really is no reason, other than blatant stubborn sexism, to spend 15 seconds locating and editing the data in that field, Bioware!

Think of it like this: Do you want people to enjoy your craftmanship or craftwomanship? Maybe I'm weird, but I think craftwomanship sounds weird. As you said, there are a lot of things they could rather spend time and resources on. Fixing bugs, for instance. Or getting out the cathar update they promised us in we'd have in April.

[Estelindis]

Think of it like this: Do you want people to enjoy your craftmanship or craftwomanship? Maybe I'm weird, but I think craftwomanship sounds weird.

Nah, I actually think craftswomanship sounds weird too. It probably isn't even a word! But craftswoman is. According to dictionary.com, its origins are in the 19th century, so I think it precedes modern political correctness.

[RepublicChicken]

Nah, I actually think craftswomanship sounds weird too. It probably isn't even a word! But craftswoman is. According to dictionary.com, its origins are in the 19th century, so I think it precedes modern political correctness.

True, Craftswoman is a word. But is it a necessary word? I don't like all the 'sir' and 'lord' all the time, but that's because it's all the time in the game. Naming myself a craftsman is just one word. It doesn't bother me at all. Anyway, I think the point is we really should choose our battles, and this whole craftsman/-woman isn't something I want to spend time on. I would much rather waste my time trying to make rodians a playable race, or figure out why everyone has to look identical in this game. Why on earth do I have to look like Bobba Fett just because I'm a bounty hunter? He wasn't even in the movies much, and there were several bounty hunters in the original saga. And for that matter, why do smugglers have to look like Han Solo? Even Han Solo didn't always look like Han Solo in the original saga. You don't see him running around in a shirt and vest on Hoth, do you? And c'mon, smugglers wearing a vest and shirt as a uniform? That's just ridiculous. Isn't the whole point in smugglers to blend in with the rest of the population and not stand out like a freakin' beacon, so you don't draw attention to yourself? So isn't forcing us to wear uniforms going against everything a smuggler stands for? Might as well call my spaceship Illeg Allgoods, owned by Captain Imas Muggler. Edited May 12, 2013 by RepublicChicken

[Nigredo]

As an open minded guy I whole heartedly agree. That term would best be used in medieval games rather than a futuristic setting.

 

A long time ago... in a Galaxy Far Far A Way.. (Minus 3000 years) does not mean Future...

[Nigredo]

Please change the sexist and outdated Legacy Title "Master CraftsMan" to a Gender Neutral alternative (such as: Crafter, Artisan, Craftsperson, etc.). I do realize some Craftsmenz will object almost reflexively due to "PC" backlash; however, if Bioware would simply consult academic modern writing guides before using potentially questionable labels, then they would have likely used "Master Crafter/Artisan", and this suggestion would be moot. Please search the net for "craftsman gender neutral" if corroboration is needed.

 

Although this suggestion is pointed and easily resolved by renaming the title to "Master Crafter/Artisan", this thread will inevitably veer off into an ocean of tears where many will jump at the opportunity to vent their frustrations regarding political correctness in general (which really has gone way too far; I totally empathize). I ask, in vein, that we please stay focused [on the current tears of many female "Master Craftsman":(].

 

[edit: added from one of my posts below]: Don't forget to list examples of job title changes due, at least in part, to the fragile male ego; I'll start: secretary->office assistant , nurse->male nurse , cook->chef , flight attendant , etc. I'll net search for more examples when free time permits.

Thank you,

 

 

So in lieu of your generally bigoted and self-entitled views regarding the treatment of your alleged gender in a fictional world, you think Master Craftsman is so offensive that you would like it changed to better mesh with your experience.

 

It’s Cute and you will most likely get your way since the bleeding hearts at bio ware are known the entertain such requests in lieu of actually working on game related issues that are relevant to the majority of players and not some mealy mouthed few who cry every time the perceive an injustice against their anatomical parts, sexuality or whatever loud and obnoxious thing is to say in order to garner some modicum of attention.

[Vil-lynne]

... today it may be you and that one title. Tomorrow it may be...

Do you really expect people to fall for that feeble attempt to apply the "slippery slope" excuse to my tiny request? Well, following your reasoning, why not apply it to every suggestion in the forums? even yours if any; gosh, we may as well just delete all the player suggestions and comments right now! Perhaps you could post that as a new suggestion

[Post#1:]...

A long time ago... in a Galaxy Far Far A Way.. (Minus 3000 years) does not mean Future...

Just... duh!

[Post#2:]...[spews vitriol]...[ouchy!]

My goodness! This thread must have really struck a sensitive nerve with the little man... Are you mad? I sincerely hope this link helps brighten up your day!:

.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[Twin]

So are we gonna rename Mankind and Human as well?

 

Huperson perhaps?

Edited May 12, 2013 by Twin

[RepublicChicken]

My goodness! This thread must have really struck a sensitive nerve with the little man... Are you mad? I sincerely hope this link helps brighten up your day!:

.

Awww... that song is so cute. I was gonna post more, but... nah. I'll rather watch that video again. Thanks. Though I see your song, and raise with this:

 

 

(in fact, everyone should listen to it before posting on the forum.)

[Estelindis]

If you have a position on the OP, put it in writing

I have already stated my opinion on the topic of this thread in several previous posts.

 

The only reason I quoted the insult thrown at the OP was for the record, in case the one who made the insult and the one who agreed with it decided to delete it. I have no interest in discussing the "merit" of calling people names, particularly when real-world politics, upon which the insult in question is based, is solidly off-topic. Consider this the end of my engagement with the insult. Keep fishing if you like, but you won't catch anything.