"Master CraftsMan" Legacy_Title needs a Gender Neutral change...

[Vil-lynne]

Please change the sexist and outdated Legacy Title "Master CraftsMan" to a Gender Neutral alternative (such as: Master Crafter, Artisan, Craftsperson, etc.) as traipsing around with CraftsMan above my head just doesn't really feel like the reward it was meant to be. I do realize some Craftsmenz will object almost reflexively due to "PC" backlash; however, if Bioware would simply consult academic modern writing guides before using potentially questionable labels, then they would have likely used "Master Crafter/Artisan", and this suggestion would be moot. Please search the net for "craftsman gender neutral" if corroboration is needed.

 

Although this suggestion is pointed and easily resolved by renaming the title to "Master Crafter/Artisan", this thread will inevitably veer off into an ocean of tears where many will jump at the opportunity to vent their frustrations regarding political correctness in general (which really has gone way too far; I totally empathize). I ask, in vein, that we please stay focused [on the current tears of many females enduring a title above their head that reads "Master Craftsman":(].

Thank you.

 

[edit: felicitous persuasion(s) from my posts below]: Let us not forget to list examples of past job title changes due, at least in part, to the usual fragile male ego (I haven't the time to search for a proper list of valid examples for you, but I'll start us off anyway): babysitter -> xboxsitter, milkmaid -> udder engineer, ...

Edited May 15, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[darthnamel]

As an open minded guy I whole heartedly agree. That term would best be used in medieval games rather than a futuristic setting.

[JediCahlwyn]

I'm a huge advocate of equality and gender rights but really? Craftsman is a general term for someone who crafts. It doesn't mean men only. Women has men in it as well, you should change that as well.

 

That said, Artisan would be a better term in general.

[Jendor]

I'd like to preface by saying i'm not a sexist in anyway but my understanding and opinion on the usage is different from the OPs

 

But aside from this i don't think we should dull the title to some thing like craftsperson and subject the game to extensive Political Correctness (maybe others don't think crafts person sounds dull but it does to me)

 

my personal opinion is that craftsman is in the vein of generic use i.e:

 

"The term man (from Proto-Germanic *mannaz or *manwaz "man, person") and words derived from it can designate any or even all of the human race regardless of their sex or age." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_%28word%29

 

Further more "Man in traditional usage refers to the species, to humanity as a whole. Equating the term for the male with the whole species is commonly occurring in other languages"

 

how often in a film do you hear "at the dawn of man" at the dawn of people doesn't quite have the same impact ..

 

i suppose it's all down to your disambiguation of the etymology of the phrase "Man"

[LyulfLykaios]

I'm a huge advocate of equality and gender rights but really? Craftsman is a general term for someone who crafts. It doesn't mean men only. Women has men in it as well, you should change that as well.

 

That said, Artisan would be a better term in general.

 

I agree.

[Vil-lynne]

Thank you for the responses and interest. It does seem as if some didn't do their homework before posting (ie. search for guides on modern writing or using the search quote in the OP). I understand that for many, tradition and personal opinions matter more than academic modern writing guides, especially here in the States where we still haven't even switched to the Metric system! I really don't consider myself to be a feminist (aside from being pro reproductive/sex freedom of choice.. if a woman wants to abort or, say, auction her virginity online then that is her right as an individual), but I digress; I am completely willing to negotiate and meet you half way... I have no problem with the traditionalists keeping their "Craftsman", if they can try to understand that I would rather not traipse around with the "-man" title above me. Please permit me a modern choice: Master Crafter, Master Artisan, Master Craftsperson, etc. [edit: okay, that was pretty bad:o] Oh, and no, I'm not advocating that players to be permitted to choose a title that conflicts with their avatar's gender; silly! Edited May 7, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[Tentou]

NOT signed.

 

Craftsman is universal, the title has nothing to do with gender. Leave it as it is.

[JPryde]

This thread reminds me of the "new and exciting" changes that came to my native language (german) with the introduction of political correctness.

 

As you might know, we got not only "the" as article, but personal article for male, female and neutral subjects. Over here, people are going crazy with political correctness.

Switzerland decided two years ago, to get rid of the terms "mother"(die Mutter) and "father"(der Vater) and replace it with "the parent"(das Elter) (contrary to english, the word parent was not existing in singular form in swiss german before that).

 

In my humble opinion, feminism taken to extremes is actually harmful to the cause itself. Many german words are brought to the female version with the appendix of "in". for example Crafter would be "Handwerker" and a female Crafter would be "Handwerkerin". Politicians and officials all around are spending lots of time to talk about (male Version) and (female version) of anything... and feminists as well as pedantics are jumping all over them, if they only once dare to use only one version.... sometimes I believe, the content of a speech is less important than the form... and that is something that I do not like.

[Jendor]

Thank you for the responses and interest. It does seem as if some didn't do their homework before posting (ie. search for guides on modern writing or using the search quote in the OP). I understand for that for many, tradition and personal opinions matter more than academic modern writing guides, especially here in the States where we still haven't switched to the Metric system, but I digress. I really don't consider myself to be a feminist by the common definition of the word (aside from being pro-choice regarding reproduction and sex), and I am completely willing to negotiate and meet you half way... I have no problem with the traditionalists keeping their "Craftsman", if you can understand that I would rather not traipse around with the "-man" title above me. Please permit me a modern choice: Artisan, Craftsperson, Crafter, and even Craftswoman is preferable to no change.

Thank you,

Tessa-Lynne

 

I'm aware of debates in writing guides and conflicts in that area but regardless /support for choice of craftsman/craftswoman on the users choice .. or should it be forced if your avatar is female/male haha !

[SWGEvictee]

Political correctness runs amok. Edited May 2, 2013 by SWGEvictee

[Vil-lynne]

This thread reminds me of the ... [sweeping] changes that came to my native language (german) with the introduction of political correctness...

 

Oh my, that really is going to extremes. I too would be opposed to such drastic changes to my language. I am against the vast majority of "political correctness" requirements, especially on free speech.

 

In this particular instance, though, just imagine your male avatar proudly displaying a new and hard earned "Master Craftswoman" title for all to see.. .. I know it's "not the same", yet how would that make you feel?

Edited May 2, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[Aryh]

This thread reminds me of the "new and exciting" changes that came to my native language (german) with the introduction of political correctness.

 

As you might know, we got not only "the" as article, but personal article for male, female and neutral subjects. Over here, people are going crazy with political correctness.

Switzerland decided two years ago, to get rid of the terms "mother"(die Mutter) and "father"(der Vater) and replace it with "the parent"(das Elter) (contrary to english, the word parent was not existing in singular form in swiss german before that).

 

In my humble opinion, feminism taken to extremes is actually harmful to the cause itself. Many german words are brought to the female version with the appendix of "in". for example Crafter would be "Handwerker" and a female Crafter would be "Handwerkerin". Politicians and officials all around are spending lots of time to talk about (male Version) and (female version) of anything... and feminists as well as pedantics are jumping all over them, if they only once dare to use only one version.... sometimes I believe, the content of a speech is less important than the form... and that is something that I do not like.

 

My thoughts ecactly. Their ideas have become simply ridiculous. I never felt offended by the word "Fahrradfahrer" why change it to "Person die Fahrrad faehrt" or however they decided to call it.

 

That said, I feel no need to adapt the term craftsman. It includes men and women alike. I even felt offended by a different term because we're equal and therefore we don't need a separate term to replace a universal one.

[ScarletBlaze]

I see no reason to adapt the term craftsman. It doesn't offend me by using the universal one. Edited May 2, 2013 by ScarletBlaze

[scraycroft]

 

In this particular instance, though, just imagine your male avatar proudly displaying a new and hard earned "Master Craftswoman" title above his head...

 

Not the same scenario.

[The_Bull]

I'm a huge advocate of equality and gender rights but really? Craftsman is a general term for someone who crafts. It doesn't mean men only. Women has men in it as well, you should change that as well.

I agree with this quote, but regarding the topic this would be a waste of development time. Much better uses for that time just in the suggestion box alone.

 

And before i get tarred and feathered, here is the definition of "Craftsman" according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

Definition of CRAFTSMAN

1: a worker who practices a trade or handicraft

2: one who creates or performs with skill or dexterity especially in the manual arts

 

No one is going to change the entirety of the English language just to pay homage to the feminist movement.

[jgoldsack]

political correctness will be the death of us all.

 

Just because it has the word "MAN" at the end does not make it male only.

Edited May 2, 2013 by jgoldsack

[Vil-lynne]

Now, just for fun *smiles*, let's list some examples of job title differences due, at least in part, to the fragile male ego: secretary->office assistant , nurse->male nurse , cook->chef, flight attendant, and many more (I'll google them later and update when I have some free time).

[JimG]

Please change the sexist and outdated Legacy Title "Master CraftsMan" to a Gender Neutral alternative (such as: Artisan, Crafter, Craftsperson). I realize some Craftsmenz will object almost reflexively due to "PC" backlash; however, if Bioware had simply consulted modern writing guides before using a potentially questionable label, then they would have likely used "Master Artisan/Crafter", and this suggestion would be moot. Please search the net for "craftsman gender neutral" if corroboration is needed.

 

Although this suggestion is pointed and easily resolved by renaming the title to "Master Artisan/Crafter", this thread will inevitably veer off into an ocean of tears where many will jump at the opportunity to vent their frustrations regarding political correctness in general (which really has gone way too far; I totally empathize). I ask, in vein, that we please stay focused.

Thank you,

Tessa-Lynne C.

 

It was probably just an oversight. There are two other titles that were already in the game before 2.0 that have male/female alternatives - Knight of Alderaan/Baroness and Flyboy/Flygirl. Therefore, suggesting that BW has some sort of sexist agenda is going a little far. You'd probably accomplish more by sending an email to support@swtor.com with your request. Things in the forums tend to get lost in the sea of clutter. As for your ocean of tears comment, I get the concern you raised but, based upon your subsequent posts in this thread, you seem to be pretty much the only one venting and displaying frustration here.

[Eillack]

NOT signed.

 

Craftsman is universal, the title has nothing to do with gender. Leave it as it is.

 

This.

 

1/10 for this joke thread.

[gergod]

... I would rather not traipse around with the "-man" title above me. Please permit me a modern choice: Master Artisan, Craftsperson, Crafter, or even Craftswoman ...

 

Now if i would generalise, which gender is more likely to contradict themselves in the next sentence it would be incorrect

[Vil-lynne]

... You'd probably accomplish more by sending an email to support@swtor.com with your request. Things in the forums tend to get lost in the sea of clutter ...

 

Good suggestion, I did not realize that email was an option. I did submit a ticket in-game, and was directed to post it here on this suggestion forum.

 

Oh, and feel free to keep on playing that "kill the messenger" manipulation game, guys... I won't sit down and shut up; I won't stop rocking the boat. Though, "In the end, what will hurt the most is not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends" - M.L.K.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[FuryoftheStars]

Please change the sexist and outdated Legacy Title "Master CraftsMan" to a Gender Neutral alternative (such as: Artisan, Crafter, Craftsperson).

 

Agreed and support.

 

EDIT: Now, having actually read through the thread....

 

I think one thing that some people are forgetting is the time/era in which some of the words we have now were actually created. Words like "craftsman" were created to literally mean a "man of crafts" during an era when only men were doing these kinds of things. Women were either forbidden, laughed at, or shunned because it was a man's job.

 

And besides, as Vil-lynne has already pointed out, there are many terms that used to be exclusive female roles that have had their terms changed to be more gender neutral so men can actually "feel comfortable" with their job titles.

Edited May 6, 2013 by FuryoftheStars

[dscount]

Okay... I have to ask.. and I'm just being a blunt jerk about this...

 

We going to have "Woman" or "Women" get the "Man" or "Men" removed from them anytime soon?

 

So do we need to get those renamed?

 

BTW: "Master Craftsman" is fine, but if needed make it "Master Crafter" if it's a big deal. I think its a fair request.

Edited May 6, 2013 by dscount

[Vil-lynne]

... [remove the "man" from "woman"] ...

I have pondered this But, seriously though, our language has plenty of alternate word choices without resorting to changing the language itself (as it seems Germany is enduring).

 

... if needed make it "Master Crafter" if it's a big deal. I think its a fair request.

Thank you!

[lavans]

I just stumbled on this post and I have to say... Choose your battles. Why does this get to you? I studied academic research and writing. It's a general term for anyone that crafts. You're a woMAN. Not a wo. It suits you just fine.