Enough with Pre-mades vs Randoms! This needs to be fixed!

[Astarica]

I'm dubious about the level of personal skill actually required to PVP. I mean, sure, there's definitely skill involved, definitely, and as above I freely admit I am nowhere near the kind of skilled that people who have PVP'd for a long time (or who simply have better reflexes/hotkeys) are. But you know? I call out inc. I focus/mark healers. I respond to callouts. In Huttball I try to take out people who are obviously setting up for a pass/set myself up for a pass when my team has the ball/try to keep my teammates clear. I do these things. Perfectly? No, I've been PVPing for all of a month. But I do these things. And up against the server premades it generally makes no difference at all. They're better geared, better coordinated, and they've got at least three healers and a focus team of their own that will melt me the instant I go after any of them. At best, if I've got at least two good healers on my side and my defensive abilities are up, I'll be standing for a while, long enough to watch as all my attempts to take down their healers (or pick off any guarding tanks, or take out support healers, name your poison) are about as effective as using a spoon to try to dent a steel girder.

 

I don't think it should require the world's most skilled PUG to be able to at least attempt to compete with a premade, at least not if premades are all said PUGs are going to come up against. I mean, if that's the case, how exactly do you expect any newbies to actually develop any of this much vaunted skill?

 

The real skill in this game is mostly tactical like knowing what kind of formation counters what and when your enemy is likely to hit where.

 

That said that kind of skill isn't magically increased just because you're in a premade. For the most part if you have this kind of skill you already have it, and if you don't having someone yell at you over voice isn't going to help either.

 

For PUG versus premades, class composition has become the greatest hurdle now that Bolster stripped premade of their usual gear advantage. That is, 8 DPS against a 2 healer team is going to have a pretty hard time no matter how good these 8 DPS are. Heck, try queuing in a premade with 4 DPS and see how far that gets you. These guys can all be good and I'd argue sometimes such a premade is worse than a PUG as every game there are only 4 other slots that could be healer whereas in a PUG solo queue you've 7 shots at one of the other guys is a healer. Premades will also do stuff like stacking smashers whose effect is amplified against a team with weak or no healing.

[Asvarduil]

It's clear PvE and PvP developers aren't getting together, and the results are absurdly overpowered abilities, massive gear gaps, heinous mismatches in class/gear.

 

The problem isn't that the developers aren't getting along - it's that the PvE and PvP game modes are opposed in many respects.

 

My observations on PvE:

• Large teams defeating significantly smaller groups of insanely powerful scripted encounters.
  
• Because of this, PvE is an endurance test, to see how well and how long each player can contribute.
  
• PvE encounters, due to their scripted nature are fairly static experiences; they require little adaptability unless a teammate has a critical failure of some kind.
  
• Further, to prevent a PvE encounter from becoming an overly easy experience, often capabilities like in-combat stuns will be sealed by some static buff on bosses.
  

 

My observations on PvP:

• Two equally-sized teams engage each other in pursuit of some tactical objective.
  
• Because offensive waves can be expected to be small, or overwhelming force to be employed, PvP is a sprint to see what team member can have the most effect in the shortest amount of time.
  
• PvP encounters, due to their rather dynamic nature, require adaptability that one simply cannot glean from the PvE game, unless they willingly make mistakes to impose an artificial challenge on oneself.
  
• Many PvE mechanics in SWTOR exist in the PvP mode, but are modified (e.g. Taunt does not force an enemy to attack the caster, it just highly mitigates damage unless the target attacks the Taunter.)
  

 

This is just ongoing commentary from before the game's release - PvP and PvE are two entirely different game modes. Naturally, we PvPers are often going to find fault with PvE changes because it typically totally breaks our experience. PvEers will have similar reservations about changes that are made to keep us happy. BioWare is stuck in a catch-22 by the nature of the very game modes they are invested in.

 

All this is to say: there is no easy solution to the problem of PvE player new to PvP. PvE players must understand a few things prior to PvPing:

 

1: You will die. A lot. It may be in a 1v1 encounter against a better skilled/better geared/generally-better player. It will certainly happen if you're focused by the whole opposing team for whatever reason.

2: To win a match your focus must be fulfilling the tactical objectives of a PvP warzone. This is why at the start of all of my Tales of the Healer videos, I take a few seconds to specifically spell out the victory condition for the warzone - it's important!

3: Positive communication is important. By 'positive communication', I am referring to exchanges with allies that help each other to understand the state of the battle, and adapt to it. Things like calling out incoming enemies, or marking key opponents with lucky charms totally applies.

 

The OP is frustrated because his PuG groups do not do any of the above things, and I seriously wonder whether the OP knows to do any of those things himself. I would urge him to spend some serious effort at not just learning to play, but rather learning to communicate.

[Astarica]

I notice a common problem with PUGs and even reasonably good players is that they don't get not dying is not a badge of honor unless you're a healer or a sniper (they tend to be defensive DPS by design). It's more like a mark of shame in most cases. Doing things that win games usually puts yourself in a position where you can get killed, because if the enemy is remotely good they'll recognize what you're doing is a threat and kill you. Thus the DPS that avoids dying only do so because they're not viewed as a threat.

 

In most of my games I lead in DPS, kills, and deaths at the same time. It's easy to say if I didn't die so many times I can do even more DPS, but the enemy DPS has to go somewhere and it's usually very easy to tell who is the guy leading in DPS and try to kill him first.

[BobDoleSMash]

Nah, I don't expect change. I've been playing MMOs too long for that. I'm merely voicing the reason that a lot of people are being turned off from PVP (new people, potential new longterm PVPers). There's nothing wrong, to me, with the occasional premade. I'm pretty much guaranteed to lose against them, but whatever, that happens. My issue is going up against nothing but premades, and generally the same two every single time, for hours on end.

 

You gain skill (or at least as much skill as MMO PVP requires) and learn coordination and tactics by seeing what works and what doesn't, where and how you are and are not effective, both as a player and as your chosen class/spec. When the outcome of both good and bad skill/tactics/coordination/class ability is the same (IE, you lose because it's the same healer stacked premade you've already fought twenty times before, all in Conquerors now because of all the comms they made rolling PUGs all week) how exactly is any new player supposed to improve?

 

And you continually fighting premades isn't a sign that you should start your own? That you should pm those other people on your team who are suffering the same thing. You have a common cause to work together, and fight them. It doesn't really matter if you lose at that point, trying and evolving is better than admitting defeat and "well I can't do it." There's no excuse for that, especially to come on the forums and stand by reason.

 

Do you think all of us people who premade started with premades? We went through the same thing, where experienced players who were ahead of the game had no quarter for us. We got farmed, and we learned. We learned that if we were to win, then we had to make an effort and communicate and work with our allies, especially those who are soloing constantly and no getting the idea of team work and cooperation. And I can tell you from experience it works. I have 2 regular premade teams all of them are close friends, and I built that. I get invites to other people's premades because i've built contacts through pvp. Only time I find myself without a group of friends is in the early morning hours, 4-6 Am PST. Sometimes that's all the time I have, but when that happens I don't pout and say "Oh boohoo me". Nah I find others who are alone, and I will pm them instantly after a match and ask if they're in a group. 9/10 they are NOT. That is a clear sign to me that people are not comprehending the requirement of team play, and organization.

 

And when it comes to PvE that aura of social displacement is totally gone. So easily do I see people willing to roll different specs to fit a role because the task requires one. They know a 4 man team needs a tank and a healer, they know they need CC specs and DD. But in PvP it's totally different you have players who just queue in thinking they're going to factor as some DD, and work entirely solo, when that class is just as dependant on the others as is a tank or healer. It is illogical entirely.

 

Even if you have the seperate queues that others have mentioned it's not going to help either. You'll have solo players who will play solo because they do not change their playstyle or mindset. Then when they are introduced to premade PvP. Guess what? Do you think they're going to be prepared against those teams with experience in team work and synergy? Maybe. But not close enough to make a difference vs 4 other people. You will then have a huge gap of players who are solo, and players who are not afraid to compete and have what it takes to socialize and work with others finding a common ground to build off.

[DimeStax]

So, i went to try out PvP at max level today and out of the 4 games i made 3 were against fully organised and geared teams. I joined as a random by myself and got paired with said team. This was already starting to happen during lower level PvP but nowadays seems to have become the norm.

 

How on earth is this supposed to be fun or fair? The problem here isnt gear or balance. The problem is a fully organised team with voice chat and experienced beeing thrown in the way of someone just trying out the new PvP with a group of strangers. These teams purposidly try to take advantage of the game systems joining the queue at the same time with groups of 3 or 4.

 

End result? 2 choices: Either suffer through the daily and carry on having a poor time for no good reason because the situation wont change (maybe wait until the exploiters get tired of having no resistance and leave), or just forget about PvP or this game and move on. This in turn leads to longer queus for the remaining ones, wich will in turn quit aswell.

 

Bioware this is not acceptable, it needs to be changed. I want to have fun PvPíng, but this is ruining it for me and many others. Send all pre-made groups to the ranked warzones or make a new small-group bracket for them and let the rest of us enjoy a proper battleground where were not thrown in the lions den with no chance of survival.

 

Try this:

 

Step 1: Log on

Step 2: Type "/gu Who wants to join me in pvp?"

Step 3: Invite people who respond.

Step 4: Que for WZ's.

 

BAM, fixed.

[Andar]

Try this:

 

Step 1: Log on

Step 2: Type "/gu Who wants to join me in pvp?"

Step 3: Invite people who respond.

Step 4: Que for WZ's.

 

BAM, fixed.

 

This guy knows what he's talking about!

 

OP, there are very wise words in this thread you would do well to heed. Or, you can can continue to blame bioware for a team farming you.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Andar

[Xsorus]

You might complain about this, but its honestly not what annoys me most in PvP

 

What annoys me most is getting paired against a Premade while i'm in a Pug, and no one in the pug switching to Healer spec, despite having 5 or 6 people who can. They all Run DPS and then ***** on the boards why they lost.

 

Now we could follow your suggestion and just get rid of Premades vs Pugs, however you'll run into the same issue that Rift did when they took that approach.

 

The Premade queue's went up to insane length (because there isn't a lot of premades to begin with) and were over a hour at times.... People don't play games that require them to wait an hour for a PvP pop if there is nothing else to do.

 

People play these games to play with their guildies and friends, and soon as they can no longer do that, They quit the game.

 

That is what happened with Rift, After that change was introduce a large portion of the PVP population up and flat out quit the game because no one wanted to wait that long for a pop.

 

You could sort of get by it with just duoing instead of a full group, But It was so awful to not be able to PVP with my Guild Mates that we quit the game, Along with everyone else on the server.

 

So while you may be upset that you're losing in a game that losing really isn't that big of a deal, It's a lot better then having people quit the game flat out because they can't play a Multi Player game with their friends.

[BobDoleSMash]

 

The OP is frustrated because his PuG groups do not do any of the above things, and I seriously wonder whether the OP knows to do any of those things himself. I would urge him to spend some serious effort at not just learning to play, but rather learning to communicate.

 

I agree with this post. The problem isn't a learn to play issue entirely. It's a communication issue. The unwillingness to group up with others is the bane of PvP. The more people understand that they should queue in as a group, or queue in solo and build a group as they play the better their game experience will be. If you cannot do these things, then you have little ground to stand on in any argument.

[kartikeya]

And you continually fighting premades isn't a sign that you should start your own? That you should pm those other people on your team who are suffering the same thing. You have a common cause to work together, and fight them. It doesn't really matter if you lose at that point, trying and evolving is better than admitting defeat and "well I can't do it." There's no excuse for that, especially to come on the forums and stand by reason.

 

Do you think all of us people who premade started with premades? We went through the same thing, where experienced players who were ahead of the game had no quarter for us. We got farmed, and we learned. We learned that if we were to win, then we had to make an effort and communicate and work with our allies, especially those who are soloing constantly and no getting the idea of team work and cooperation. And I can tell you from experience it works. I have 2 regular premade teams all of them are close friends, and I built that. I get invites to other people's premades because i've built contacts through pvp. Only time I find myself without a group of friends is in the early morning hours, 4-6 Am PST. Sometimes that's all the time I have, but when that happens I don't pout and say "Oh boohoo me". Nah I find others who are alone, and I will pm them instantly after a match and ask if they're in a group. 9/10 they are NOT. That is a clear sign to me that people are not comprehending the requirement of team play, and organization.

 

And when it comes to PvE that aura of social displacement is totally gone. So easily do I see people willing to roll different specs to fit a role because the task requires one. They know a 4 man team needs a tank and a healer, they know they need CC specs and DD. But in PvP it's totally different you have players who just queue in thinking they're going to factor as some DD, and work entirely solo, when that class is just as dependant on the others as is a tank or healer. It is illogical entirely.

 

Even if you have the seperate queues that others have mentioned it's not going to help either. You'll have solo players who will play solo because they do not change their playstyle or mindset. Then when they are introduced to premade PvP. Guess what? Do you think they're going to be prepared against those teams with experience in team work and synergy? Maybe. But not close enough to make a difference vs 4 other people. You will then have a huge gap of players who are solo, and players who are not afraid to compete and have what it takes to socialize and work with others finding a common ground to build off.

 

Premades should NOT be a requirement to manage to do anything in regular warzones. Ranked exists for the purpose of premade teams to tear each other apart, that's why solo PVPers are not allowed to soloe queue in ranked. Should premades have an advantage? Sure. Should it be an I Win button for them? No. People keep repeating the same things in this thread: do what you're supposed to do, focus the healers, etc etc. That's all great advice, but it's advice that quite a number of people already follow. I just fought against one of the usual premades. They had three healers, two of which went out of their way to try and get people to attack them. We had our entire DPS team beating on them with no tanks nearby, and we still couldn't take down the one, and barely the other. This was at our pylon. Two healers were pretty much soloing the entire team (I have no idea *** the other people were doing, picking their noses at the other pylon?).

 

That? That's ridiculous. I stopped queuing for the next few hours because I know that premade is going to be in there for some time and I stand absolutely no chance against them.

 

Saying 'just make your own premades for regular warzones!' is not a solution to the problem, it's contributing, quite apart from an individual player's personal ability to do so. Most newbies are not going to turn around and suddenly make their own teams (and even if they do, they're still the same people up against the same premade that stomped them without effort before).

 

As for solo players? Sorry, solo players /have/ to be flexible because they've got no one backing them up. Solo PVPers need to change their mindset and tactics far more than a premade that has the same group makeup, same players, and same tactics every single match. You've said yourself that it's harder as a solo player than it is being in a premade. Turning around and blanket saying that solo players are just lazy and can't work with (a myriad of) different people just makes me roll my eyes. Because yeah, the people who stick to the same premade groups with the same class makeup with the same players every single match are the ones that are the social masters on this game. Sure.

[funkiestj]

the typical "my team was all pugs and i always fight against fully geared full premades" post.

 

ffs, can we get a mod to start consolidating these into one thread? every day there are 5-10 more new ones

 

I would be a volunteer mod if BW would let me. Volunteer mods don't need full mod permissions ...

 

Other places call these "containment threads". We need a "pug vs premade containment thread" (and a resolve sucks containment thread). What are all the other containment threads we need?

[Happy_Puppy]

Pre-made teams have ranked, that's what ranked pvp is for. Anyone who runs a pre-made to go up vs pugs are people that just want to steam roll. There lack of skill in ranked vs real teams is why they try to defend pre-made vs pug.

 

Pre-Made has ranked and you should only be able to make a pre-made group for ranked.

Non-ranked should only allow solo que or maybe 2's to que.

[skarlson]

You hit the nail on the head you can win against a premade with pugs when your pugs a good pvpers. The problem is those that complain are in groups that really should take the time to research there class and learn it . I other words if you loose you just need to L2P nothing more. Pugs can win and dominate a premade seen it done with no sweat. If you loose to a premade look around at the 7 other players with you.\

 

Chances are the 7 other players are saying i winning on dps i winning on dps. Rather then fighting objectively

 

Not entirely so but there there is some truth here. A lot of premades are also gear grinders and perhaps even taking advantage of "optimal" gear aka bolster exploit. Not much to be done when you are outgeared or "outgeared".

[chriscruiz]

Make your own premades! PvP is supposed to be competitive.. It sucks getting beat by them in pubs, but on the rare chance you beat them its a good laugh. IMO the more premades the better!

[BobDoleSMash]

Premades should NOT be a requirement to manage to do anything in regular warzones. Ranked exists for the purpose of premade teams to tear each other apart, that's why solo PVPers are not allowed to soloe queue in ranked. Should premades have an advantage? Sure. Should it be an I Win button for them? No. People keep repeating the same things in this thread: do what you're supposed to do, focus the healers, etc etc. That's all great advice, but it's advice that quite a number of people already follow. I just fought against one of the usual premades. They had three healers, two of which went out of their way to try and get people to attack them. We had our entire DPS team beating on them with no tanks nearby, and we still couldn't take down the one, and barely the other. This was at our pylon. Two healers were pretty much soloing the entire team (I have no idea *** the other people were doing, picking their noses at the other pylon?).

 

That? That's ridiculous. I stopped queuing for the next few hours because I know that premade is going to be in there for some time and I stand absolutely no chance against them.

 

Saying 'just make your own premades for regular warzones!' is not a solution to the problem, it's contributing, quite apart from an individual player's personal ability to do so. Most newbies are not going to turn around and suddenly make their own teams (and even if they do, they're still the same people up against the same premade that stomped them without effort before).

 

As for solo players? Sorry, solo players /have/ to be flexible because they've got no one backing them up. Solo PVPers need to change their mindset and tactics far more than a premade that has the same group makeup, same players, and same tactics every single match. You've said yourself that it's harder as a solo player than it is being in a premade. Turning around and blanket saying that solo players are just lazy and can't work with (a myriad of) different people just makes me roll my eyes. Because yeah, the people who stick to the same premade groups with the same class makeup with the same players every single match are the ones that are the social masters on this game. Sure.

 

So were you solo this time? Or did you actually try to group up? I stand by what I said and I agree that solo players have to do more for themself, but at the same time they do not do what team mates do as in constant sacrifice of personal gain so that the entire team benefits. Premades have an easy time against pugs, true, but when premades are pitted against each other which comes from people making an effort to group up you will see another field of play that solo players do not touch. Granted ranked warzones are for 8v8 premades, likely guild vs guild. Regular warzones only fits 4, which is yes a premade team, but it consists of only half and they will likely benefit that team in a large way.

 

I do not agree with your statement about solo players changing their mindset. If they did they'd realize being singular is not an advantage compared to team play, because you return here in failure as you put it, where you cannot even play. You were defeated by a group of players, yet you didn't try the advice suggested did you? So unless you try it, and see for yourself you cannot share my view. That is being stubborn. Now i've done what you do, and I still do it, but I know when I solo I am more limited than with my premade teams. Non the less as I stated I still create new premades to fill in that gap, because it's a fact that players do better as a group than just 4 randoms pitted on the same team.

 

I did not simply state make your own premade, I stated to work with the players you play with daily, and you blatantly ignore. Why can't you pm them and say "hello, would you like to join my group? We better our chances working together." Do you go into the map soloing all the time? Or do you stick with your party members and try to take objectives? I assume you stay with your party and work as a group. But alas, you are defeated by coordinated players because they know what backline, frontline concepts are. They know how to push and pull your allies to expose weaknesses so that you fail. They can do this because they prepared, and that's good, it shouldn't be discouraged. You dull the gameplay entirely by limiting those people. How can you state it's more positive to be by yourself in an online multiplayer game, than to work with new people, learn about them, and learn how to work as a team?

 

As for your argument for new players, they learn like everyone else learned. They learn to lose, and win. They have to understand why they lost, and why they gained victory. But, I understand that they likely feel upset over people who are in groups defeated them, but if they realize they can do it too and they can be better than that group. Then they will stay and they will thrive. If they do not, and feel they are helpless and cannot continue then they will die off and leave the game. It's survival of the fittest. This is how you breed good PvP communities, and how you strengthen the players minds and commucation skills. To take that away would not benefit the game, but appeal to the masses and they will learn nothing.

Edited April 29, 2013 by BobDoleSMash

[kartikeya]

You breed good PVP communities by driving away new players and insisting that everyone has to make premades or get out?

 

I was in a PUG. That's a group. I sacrifice for my group. I do absolutely everything suggested in this thread EXCEPT make my own premades, and there's a personal reason for that, which involves why I don't generally do a lot of group content (hint: it's not selfishness or being a sociopath, thanks other poster). Not everyone can play the same way, that's why there are two different versions of warzones. That's why PUGs exist.

 

Edited to add:

 

How can you state it's more positive to be by yourself in an online multiplayer game, than to work with new people, learn about them, and learn how to work as a team?

 

I do all of this, but I'm primarily a soloer. I have no desire to get into my personal health reasons, but I did previously mention that I'm on disability. When I can do extended group things, I do extended group things. That's just not often for me. PVP matches are short enough that I'm never more than ten minutes or so from being able to stop what I'm doing.

Edited April 29, 2013 by kartikeya

[L-RANDLE]

At the end of the day, if you care enough about winning or losing, then you should have no problem playing with or against premades. If you solo que, then your definition of winning/losing needs to change... Either accept it, or move on... It's a MassMultiplayerOnline game.

[BobDoleSMash]

You breed good PVP communities by driving away new players and insisting that everyone has to make premades or get out?

 

I was in a PUG. That's a group. I sacrifice for my group. I do absolutely everything suggested in this thread EXCEPT make my own premades, and there's a personal reason for that, which involves why I don't generally do a lot of group content (hint: it's not selfishness or being a sociopath, thanks other poster). Not everyone can play the same way, that's why there are two different versions of warzones. That's why PUGs exist.

 

Edited to add:

 

 

 

I do all of this, but I'm primarily a soloer. I have no desire to get into my personal health reasons, but I did previously mention that I'm on disability. When I can do extended group things, I do extended group things. That's just not often for me. PVP matches are short enough that I'm never more than ten minutes or so from being able to stop what I'm doing.

 

New players don't have to leave, but if they're frustrated to the point where they cannot play because few people are more organized then they are, then i'm sorry they are not going to thrive.

 

As for pvp length and your disability. You can clearly type a message to me, in a longer fashion than which requires to greet someone and ask if they will join you. Do you have to stop what you're doing for this? No, you can continue to queue solo but build players into a group as you play. That is how I have done it. It's the refusal of doing this because you feel it's a chore, or it's just change. But you feel the need to express how it is unfair for you, because you're not willing to do this.

 

If you cannot adapt, and cannot realize the situation you put yourself in. Continually applying the same methods but expecting different results. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

 

PvP is made for players who learn to adapt and thrive at doing so, that is the purpose of playing against another able mind. There's no limit to what they can accomplish, if you cannot understand that, then again same with new players who refuse this, you will not thrive. Even if the game is catered for that type of mentality of making things easier and more convenient the same players who defeat you in a team will defeat you in other aspects of the game because they adapt, and you do not.

[kartikeya]

New players don't have to leave, but if they're frustrated to the point where they cannot play because few people are more organized then they are, then i'm sorry they are not going to thrive.

 

As for pvp length and your disability. You can clearly type a message to me, in a longer fashion than which requires to greet someone and ask if they will join you. Do you have to stop what you're doing for this? No, you can continue to queue solo but build players into a group as you play. That is how I have done it. It's the refusal of doing this because you feel it's a chore, or it's just change. But you feel the need to express how it is unfair for you, because you're not willing to do this.

 

If you cannot adapt, and cannot realize the situation you put yourself in. Continually applying the same methods but expecting different results. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

 

PvP is made for players who learn to adapt and thrive at doing so, that is the purpose of playing against another able mind. There's no limit to what they can accomplish, if you cannot understand that, then again same with new players who refuse this, you will not thrive. Even if the game is catered for that type of mentality of making things easier and more convenient the same players who defeat you in a team will defeat you in other aspects of the game because they adapt, and you do not.

 

Um, thanks for educating me on my own disability limits? That's classy.

 

People don't generally pre-make groups for one match, or with people who may have to drop out repeatedly, or simply leave before much can get done. I'm not refusing because it's a chore, I'm pointing out that it's not particularly viable for me (or for people with fussy babies, or people with young kids, or insert real life situation here). You lecture me on flexibility, and yet you insist this is the only way that things can possibly be done (and again with the 'pre-mades are more social than grouping up and working with different people every match').

 

But enough on that for the moment. This is what I would ask: isn't rolling over newbies or low skilled players in PUGs boring after a while? Where's the investment that this must be defended so rigorously?

[MotorCityMan]

Um, thanks for educating me on my own disability limits? That's classy.

 

People don't generally pre-make groups for one match, or with people who may have to drop out repeatedly, or simply leave before much can get done. I'm not refusing because it's a chore, I'm pointing out that it's not particularly viable for me (or for people with fussy babies, or people with young kids, or insert real life situation here). You lecture me on flexibility, and yet you insist this is the only way that things can possibly be done (and again with the 'pre-mades are more social than grouping up and working with different people every match').

 

But enough on that for the moment. This is what I would ask: isn't rolling over newbies or low skilled players in PUGs boring after a while? Where's the investment that this must be defended so rigorously?

 

This same problem exists in other games.

 

Solo players: Premades vs pugs is unfair

Premades: L2P adapt join a guild

Solo players: I work irregular hours, etc

Premades: So I can't play with my friends? It's an mmo

Solo players: Premades should only face premades.

Premades: Queue times too long

 

That about sums up the argument. The premade feature will not be done away with. It is too popular. So the cure is either a preferential matchmaking system which for this game would probably require cross server queuing or creating wz teams large enough so that a 4 man premade doesn't dominate. 40 man teams or 24 man teams for example.

 

Since those possibilities are remote for this game atm, Solo players can join pvp guilds or learn to exit wzs quickly when they spot an unfavorable mismatch. Both are easy to do without penalty.

[Astarica]

If there are at least two WZs in a particular bracket going on at the same time then matchmaking is always possible. If not your server has some serious problems anyway.

 

If you look at say LoL, the rating of everyone in a premade is inflated by a certain percentage for the fact they're in a premade. This means the rest of your team is going to be extra weak or your opponet is going to be extra strong if such candidates are available. There's nothing stopping the same thing from being applied here. You'd have a harder time coming up with the matching candidates, but as long as your server has 2 WZs going on simultaneously you at least have some room to work with.

 

At any rate the problem with premade right now is that having a premade greatly increases the chance that there's going to be a healer on your side, because DPS account for more tha 7/8 of the population (8 DPS PUGs are rather common) and premade tends to self select toward having at least one healer, and right now healing is too strong that it is not reasonable to expect 8 DPS to overcome a team with any healer. If you're not convinced run a premade with 4 DPS and you're going to have a pretty rough time if the enemy side has at least 1 good healer, because chances are your side will have 0.

[Yelloweyedemon]

Having other 3 friends to play with in PvP is fine. It is an MMO after all.

 

What's annoying is hardcore PvP guilds queue'ing with 4, while being in vent/TS, facerolling the enemy team that's full of pugs. But then again how many serious hardcore PvP guilds exist per server that are queue'ing regularly normal WZ's for the only reason of facerolling. I play on ToFN and in 55 pvp there are only 2 or 3 guilds that queue'ing normal WZ's on regular basis, while being fully organized and stuff, just to faceroll pugs.

 

You always have the option of 'leave warzone'... It will 'cost' you 1-2 minutes untill the next WZ pop up...

 

WHat's all the fuzz and drama about? Oh da forums!

[Baedwulf]

TL;DR - If only MMO's were more like single player games and had a difficulty setting.

[BobDoleSMash]

Um, thanks for educating me on my own disability limits? That's classy.

 

People don't generally pre-make groups for one match, or with people who may have to drop out repeatedly, or simply leave before much can get done. I'm not refusing because it's a chore, I'm pointing out that it's not particularly viable for me (or for people with fussy babies, or people with young kids, or insert real life situation here). You lecture me on flexibility, and yet you insist this is the only way that things can possibly be done (and again with the 'pre-mades are more social than grouping up and working with different people every match').

 

But enough on that for the moment. This is what I would ask: isn't rolling over newbies or low skilled players in PUGs boring after a while? Where's the investment that this must be defended so rigorously?

 

You put limitations on yourself, that is why you are here in this thread. It is not the only way to get it done, there are others, but it is the most fruitful way which is clear by how you admit to leave and not enter the PvP queue because of one factor group. You did not answer my question upon whether you tried or not which is easy to presume you did not bother. As for what people generally do. Well, that's the point isn't it? What people generally do is not working, and what the factors do is working, thus the purpose of this thread.

 

It's entirely convenient to ask people to join but clearly outside your comfort zone and for those to oppose as well. I can tell the people who come here and troll saying "get good bro" are those who already know how this works and they're way beyond this thread. But I don't feel like doing the same. People come and go alot in pug premades that I make daily, that's ok, you have to learn that some people are not meant for it and become frustrated much like yourself because they do not understand how team play works. You continue to pick up people along the way. There's 7 other people in each game you play for 10-15 minutes, if you did not suffer from tunnel vision in midst of PvP you can observe how they play. They may suit your standards, and you can then request for them to join. It's a simple yes or no answer, and most people I've come across easily say yes.

 

Does that mean we utterly own in PvP? No, not even close. But we work together to complete the task and fight against the odds. It's better to have a group of people that suffer from the same pain you do, than to wallow in your own failures.

 

As for your last quesiton, for a premade team? It depends on which kind, because there is no one type of group. I have played with friends who I have known for years and they know my mindset and actions in the game, and it factors into how we play considerably. There's teams that just form and may not be skilled or fluid in team effort as well. So when opposing another pug group with a strong friend based team? No, most of them lack the skill and knowledge to compete and lose in PvP not objectives. Usually these players will not return to pvp us, and this goes for premades too. When facing another premade not all of them return with the wrath of Crom to crush us. They lose hope and fade, going to do objectives.

 

Which is why I suggest you play in a premade, and try to form a group, because you will then understand what it means to work in a team and to build one, and to lose people as you go while still remaining. If you cannot speak to people on your team in a pug match, then of course you're immediately at a disadvantage. But honstly all it takes is a single pm from you or them to get things going. It's just a building process, much like that of obtaining knowledge of mechanics, and timing skills. It's one of the many aspects of PvP.

[kartikeya]

TL;DR - If only MMO's were more like single player games and had a difficulty setting.

 

Sure, if that difficulty setting is 'I want to have no chance whatsoever to actually play this game, please enable god-mode for all enemies'. Also, I hate to break it to you, but MMOs do have difficulty settings. That's why enemies have level and con ratings, and content grouped by playstyle. That's also why there are things like 'hard-mode' and 'story-mode' on this game. Or, you know, ranked warzones.

 

It is what it is. I've merely laid out what's driving me away from PVP, and suggested it may also be driving away others. I'm no real loss. But it's a shame to find something you enjoy being monopolized by healer-stacked farm groups.

[kartikeya]

You put limitations on yourself, that is why you are here in this thread. It is not the only way to get it done, there are others, but it is the most fruitful way which is clear by how you admit to leave and not enter the PvP queue because of one factor group. You did not answer my question upon whether you tried or not which is easy to presume you did not bother. As for what people generally do. Well, that's the point isn't it? What people generally do is not working, and what the factors do is working, thus the purpose of this thread.

 

It's entirely convenient to ask people to join but clearly outside your comfort zone and for those to oppose as well. I can tell the people who come here and troll saying "get good bro" are those who already know how this works and they're way beyond this thread. But I don't feel like doing the same. People come and go alot in pug premades that I make daily, that's ok, you have to learn that some people are not meant for it and become frustrated much like yourself because they do not understand how team play works. You continue to pick up people along the way. There's 7 other people in each game you play for 10-15 minutes, if you did not suffer from tunnel vision in midst of PvP you can observe how they play. They may suit your standards, and you can then request for them to join. It's a simple yes or no answer, and most people I've come across easily say yes.

 

Does that mean we utterly own in PvP? No, not even close. But we work together to complete the task and fight against the odds. It's better to have a group of people that suffer from the same pain you do, than to wallow in your own failures.

 

As for your last quesiton, for a premade team? It depends on which kind, because there is no one type of group. I have played with friends who I have known for years and they know my mindset and actions in the game, and it factors into how we play considerably. There's teams that just form and may not be skilled or fluid in team effort as well. So when opposing another pug group with a strong friend based team? No, most of them lack the skill and knowledge to compete and lose in PvP not objectives. Usually these players will not return to pvp us, and this goes for premades too. When facing another premade not all of them return with the wrath of Crom to crush us. They lose hope and fade, going to do objectives.

 

Which is why I suggest you play in a premade, and try to form a group, because you will then understand what it means to work in a team and to build one, and to lose people as you go while still remaining. If you cannot speak to people on your team in a pug match, then of course you're immediately at a disadvantage. But honstly all it takes is a single pm from you or them to get things going. It's just a building process, much like that of obtaining knowledge of mechanics, and timing skills. It's one of the many aspects of PvP.

 

Look, I know what it means to work in a team/group and build one. This is not my first MMO rodeo. Please stop assuming that I don't.

 

If by your question you meant 'did I try to direct the group toward a unified goal' then the answer is yes. It is definitely outside my comfort zone, but I have been trying that. A later PUG that was up against a group that was strong but not one of the server pre-mades (which I will again point out on my server appears to be incredibly rare) ended up succeeding precisely because I started giving directions and everyone started callouts and evenly splitting between our two held nodes. But a match immediately after that with many of the same people failed because it was up against a pre-made (yes, the same damn one).

 

I appreciate your attempts at helping me find a solution toward my woes, just not the assumptions being made in the process. But as mentioned above, whether or not I stick with PVP isn't really a big deal. I'm not going to become someone terribly good at it, and I don't have very much invested in that part of the game (I'm a super newbie, I've been playing for all of a month, maybe). My point is that there are other people like me who could very well become very good players and contribute to the PVP community in a positive fashion, but the way that warzones are happening now, these new players get to experience pretty much nothing but constant, overwhelming defeat, often followed up by 'lol noob' comments in /say from the pre-made team.