SWTOR dying? Quit a month after release: Came back and game is better [Criticisms]

[ShmickB]

As the OP, I didn't stop because of lack of content. I got frustated with the lack of quality-of-life, such as no group finder and instant transport. I have characters of every class and no character is yet level 50 even. I focus on the storyline PvE because I'm about story. Content is content and if you're just speeding through 80% of the content to reach the end-game content, you're still blazing past 80% of content. It might be in Bioware's best interest to pinpoint the PvE storyline market and the end-game market, and focus on those audiences with distinct teams. I would assert that the PvE crowd who plays more casual in a non-committal sense, will be the ones spending more money because they work, have money and don't have time to play as much.

 

Again I agree with you. I don't get this "hardcore" v "casual" thing (SWTOR is my first MMO), but I enjoyed seeing all the content done as I played through (which meant I was always over-leveled for the next planet but meh) and now I'm in an active guild I love going raiding with them most nights of the week

[CosmicKat]

Again I agree with you. I don't get this "hardcore" v "casual" thing (SWTOR is my first MMO), but I enjoyed seeing all the content done as I played through (which meant I was always over-leveled for the next planet but meh) and now I'm in an active guild I love going raiding with them most nights of the week

 

The definitions of hardcore and casual change all the time.

 

Hardcore used to mean those who play 10+ hours per day, every day and casual used to mean those who play an hour or two a few nights a week. The way the terms are thrown around nowadays, from what I've seen, is all about how dedicated long term to that particular game the person is.

 

In the early days of MMO's, it wasn't even possible to raid unless you were "hardcore" as the actual raiding took many hours to do, let alone that it took a year or two of hardcore levelling to reach that point.

 

The terms are really bogus now anyway. Nobody has made a "hardcore" MMO in many years. They are all just chasing the WoW audience and failing in various degrees.

Edited April 23, 2013 by CosmicKat

[EhevuTov]

The definitions of hardcore and casual change all the time.

 

Hardcore used to mean those who play 10+ hours per day, every day and casual used to mean those who play an hour or two a few nights a week. The way the terms are thrown around nowadays, from what I've seen, is all about how dedicated long term to that particular game the person is.

 

In the early days of MMO's, it wasn't even possible to raid unless you were "hardcore" as the actual raiding took many hours to do, let alone that it took a year or two of hardcore levelling to reach that point.

 

The terms are really bogus now anyway. Nobody has made a "hardcore" MMO in many years. They are all just chasing the WoW audience and failing in various degrees.

Yeah, I think my view of hardcore now is really pro. Like, a hardcore LoL player to me is someone who streams and is professional. Most of my friends and myself are casual, but gaming is like a hobby and we play a lot of hours, yet I'm very serious about the game when I play and I try to min-max my entertainment as much as possible because I work during the day.

Edited April 23, 2013 by EhevuTov

[ShmickB]

The definitions of hardcore and casual change all the time.

 

Hardcore used to mean those who play 10+ hours per day,

 

10+ hours a day?! Holy Cheese!

[AlaricSevGirl]

1) progressive raids arent hardcore. the only hardcore thing about this game is nightmare modes. And those are pretty easy to do

 

2) you dont like it? dont play it then, just leave.

 

3) Usually people call posts negative if they have constructive criticism. Your 3rd point is pretty ironic. I guess you just made a negative post.

 

Don't like what? I'm not the one criticizing the game. I love the game. Also, I didn't call anyone names, or slander the devs, Bioware or EA. And my second point was about how I spend my money. This game is here because people like me spend money in the Cartel Market and are subscribers.

[theUndead]

Around 80% of subs left within the first few months of this games release, i thought that was common knowledge. And sorry do you work for EA? You only seem to care about the money? What about actual quality of game? The reasons this game went F2P is because it has next to no end game content, and levelling is so quick. Thats why so many people left, not to mention the false promises by bioware, and the lack of content updates we get.

 

Yes, this game may be "growing", bringing in more F2P casuals...but its certainly not going to bring more dedicated players. Look how server pops went down, thats why they did server merges...guilds broke down because no one played.

 

Yeah, the devs ignore hardcore players because they cant be bothered with them, theyre making more money off casual gamers and f2p and the cartel market. Its all about the money now. Thats my point.

 

4 warzones over and over, no open world pvp? Tbh they should scrap pvp and focus on PvE content.

 

I guess thats why this game flopped then, because it has no hardcore stuff. I have high hopes for The Elder Scrolls Online

 

And another thing, please tell me why you think this game went F2P?

 

I like your arm chair anaylist way of thinking. But could you please provide a source to back up your claim that 80% of subs left please? And how the game flopped? Because not sure if you realize but the game is pretty stable now.

[oakamp]

The definitions of hardcore and casual change all the time.

 

Hardcore used to mean those who play 10+ hours per day, every day and casual used to mean those who play an hour or two a few nights a week.

WTH? 10+ per day? no job or RL nerd?

 

hardcore means ppl who like EQ 1999 style,

raid more than 4 hrs and they don't give up,

no map in game, player has to draw map by himself,

each time u die, u lost a lot exp and to earn that back, u have to grind many hours,

not mention that ur gears all still on ur corpse, and u have to find em back even if ur corpse surrender by tons of enemies, otherwise u will be naked as a new born,

and a mob even 30 lv lower than u still can kill u,

so hardcore means a little crazy ppl.

 

the WoW beat that crazy HARDCORE game,

but few years pass by, WoW became hardcore just like EQ,

but the market doesnt like it,

so it switch to mid-core again.

Edited April 24, 2013 by oakamp

[astrobearx]

lol hardcore gamers ...ok cool story bro

[Retsopmi]

I agree with the OP.

 

I beta'ed the game. Had a CE pre ordered. Canceled before the game came out. Too many quality of life things players were asking for weren't going to be put in the game.

 

Fast forward to now, and I'm more then willing to spend the monthly fee and enjoy the game. Will take me 4 months of play time to even equal the box price the game had. I've spent more on other games that have failed way harder. Like GR:Future Soldier. *shudder*.

 

I'll play until I either don't enjoy it anymore or find something I enjoy more.

 

I always get a kick out of the people who haunt the forums of games they don't like. Way to let someone live rent free in your mind.

[Andryah]

I beta'ed the game. Had a CE pre ordered. Canceled before the game came out. Too many quality of life things players were asking for weren't going to be put in the game.

 

This issue is extremely common for newly launched MMOs.

 

The core issue is that MMOs launch in a "basic state of completion" with the most needed (not desired... needed.. there is a difference) features in place at release. Then over a period of years... along with new content comes all the "nice things" that improve in game quality of life. We also start to get more of the "fluffy" features that because some other MMO eventually got around to putting them in in their 5th year of exisitence.. the self-entitled feel offended if it's not in on day one on any new MMO.

 

TL;DR people who must have high quality of life + fluffies on launch day... these people should wait a minimum of one year after launch before even sniffing around the inside of a new MMO. And they should NOT be allowed to be beta testers EVER.

[EhevuTov]

This issue is extremely common for newly launched MMOs.

 

The core issue is that MMOs launch in a "basic state of completion" with the most needed (not desired... needed.. there is a difference) features in place at release. Then over a period of years... along with new content comes all the "nice things" that improve in game quality of life. We also start to get more of the "fluffy" features that because some other MMO eventually got around to putting them in in their 5th year of exisitence.. the self-entitled feel offended if it's not in on day one on any new MMO.

 

TL;DR people who must have high quality of life + fluffies on launch day... these people should wait a minimum of one year after launch before even sniffing around the inside of a new MMO. And they should NOT be allowed to be beta testers EVER.

Could you elaborate on that? It would rather make sense to me to add features in the game that kept people subscribed as soon as possible and beta testing with your future customers seems like the best way to do that so you can get feedback ASAP. It's really all about a priority list. I would understand only if an item on that list preceded in priority to keep subs.

Edited April 24, 2013 by EhevuTov

[tanerb]

1) The loss of subs was somewhere between 75%-90%. Nobody knows for sure.

 

2) Hardcore MMO players are being ignored, this is why most MMO's tank so badly. "Hardcore" has nothing to do with endgame content, or how long they can play per session. Hardcore MMO players are players who go into a game with the intent of still being in that game in a year or two. These are the bread and butter customer of all MMO's, and no MMO can survive without them as they provide the stable revenue that any MMO needs to keep the lights on. It makes no sense to ignore the customer base that is dedicated to favor the one that is going to leave in a month or two no matter how awesome the game is. This is why TOR can't sell subscriptions and is reduced to begging for people to play it for free. They ignored the core MMO customer to get a non-core audience and the non-core audience never showed up.

 

3) The game is not growing. At best, it is stable. Already the numbers have dropped as the expansion has been played out. The server I'm on has roughly the same population at any given time that it had post-merge, and at that time, all of the people playing were paying to do so. The same number of people with an unknown amount of them paying nothing to play does not equal growth.

 

This whole thread was started by someone who grew bored and quit within a month. Has it been a month since RotHC released? Odds are he will be gone within another month or two, as that is the pattern for "casual gamers". This is their targeted market and they missed it badly. To survive with casual gamers as your customer base you need far more of them than you would hardcores. TOR at its peak had roughly what EQ held for many years.

 

The absolute best thing that will ever come from TOR is that it should once and for all highlight the folly in aiming an MMO at a casual gamer base. It simply doesn't work and this has been proven time and time again.

 

well the point is there is a not single definition for players who want to stay long in the game. Yes, I want to stay for years but I don't give a dam about your rakata gear, pvp bolster or guild issues. for me class story is the key. so how do you differentiate me from some other guy who is looking more operations to stay or the other who wants crafting stuff. you are making an assumption of hardcore gamers as the ones who wants to stay subscribed but that is not a one group with one objective.

[LordArtemis]

I'd like to chime in. I think the game has improved IMMENSELY since the launch of FTP. It still has quite a ways to go IMO, but the inclusion of achievements was a great step forward.

 

The armor situation is improving as well it seems...still a shortage of helmets and the ability to recolor your chest.

 

Still waiting for the ability to change your appearance post creation, decorate ship interiors and exteriors, multiplayer in current space combat (group and turret play), a persistent 3D space battleground ala BF2, droid companions as alternatives to current companions (like HK except built and custom designed with abilities/class) and guild capital ships.

[Retsopmi]

This issue is extremely common for newly launched MMOs.

 

The core issue is that MMOs launch in a "basic state of completion" with the most needed (not desired... needed.. there is a difference) features in place at release. Then over a period of years... along with new content comes all the "nice things" that improve in game quality of life. We also start to get more of the "fluffy" features that because some other MMO eventually got around to putting them in in their 5th year of exisitence.. the self-entitled feel offended if it's not in on day one on any new MMO.

 

TL;DR people who must have high quality of life + fluffies on launch day... these people should wait a minimum of one year after launch before even sniffing around the inside of a new MMO. And they should NOT be allowed to be beta testers EVER.

 

I don't think you have a clue.

 

You need to realize that everything evolves. If one company is offering certain features now, then you must also offer those now. Companies aren't competing with release versions of other MMOs. They compete with their products as they are now.

 

Couple that with the fact the devs openly told the beta players they weren't needed, or liked, and only around because they had to have a beta to conform to industry standards. Not to mention things like LFG, and a lot of the other QoL changes, were said to be unwanted and unneeded by the developers in beta.

 

Luckily for EA/BW, those arrogant, and ignorant, devs lost their jobs.

[Kilora]

I don't think you have a clue.

 

You need to realize that everything evolves. If one company is offering certain features now, then you must also offer those now. Companies aren't competing with release versions of other MMOs. They compete with their products as they are now.

 

Couple that with the fact the devs openly told the beta players they weren't needed, or liked, and only around because they had to have a beta to conform to industry standards. Not to mention things like LFG, and a lot of the other QoL changes, were said to be unwanted and unneeded by the developers in beta.

 

Luckily for EA/BW, those arrogant, and ignorant, devs lost their jobs.

 

I think both of you are off the mark a little bit.

 

I completely agree with the devs that were here at launch. Most of them were horrendous, and hopefully are never able to get a job in the game industry again. I credit them with many of the flaws that are still around in this game.

 

However -- NO MMO could realistically compete with all of the features offered by an MMO that has had 10 years to perfect them. It would take that MMO a ridiculous amount of time to even come close -- something that no company is ever going to be willing to finance. You'd either need far too long for it to be relevant when it was released, or a dev team triple the size of WoWs during its peak. And most companies realize the risk isn't worth it.

 

Some things I agree should be given higher priority. I'm happy a groupfinder was added quite quickly, and we didn't wait 4+ years for it. Even better that operations are included. Had the original dev leader not been so moronic, I think server transfers would've been given much more priority as well. I don't think they were needed at launch -- but having them added in around 2-3 months after launch would've been great. Character customization? Yeah -- shouldn't really have priority. However -- a simplish way to do this might have been possible had they even gave it proper thought originally. Had we seen this within 6 months of launch, good timing IMO.

 

It all really boils down to everything that has already happened, and can't be changed. Original devs/project leads were morons. They made horrible decisions, didn't listen to anything that they were told, and thought it would take people MONTHS to hit cap level. Clearly, they made a catastrophic mistake in underestimating players, and overestimating the amount of content they had. Because of this, I think many of our QoL features we'd love are probably half-baked already, and being torn apart because of other changes that they've had to make.

 

I'm sure converting to F2P took quite a bit of dev time. Adding on the layoffs, and the constant game of catch-up -- I'd say they should get a pat on the back for how far they've come, in comparison. That certainly doesn't mean they've done a good job with everything -- solely that they've come a long way since launch, and have smartened up. I only hope (and I'm optimistic, partially because I really want this game to be great) that they'll continue this forward momentum, and be able to expand the team a bit to help grow the game at a better pace.

 

TL;DR -- You're both right and wrong, in my opinion. Too many things to look at. I can't believe I just wrote that much. And I'm so happy the original d-bags are gone. Maybe they can turn this around -- but they sure have the odds stacked against them after such a horrid pre-launch development.

[EhevuTov]

I don't think you have a clue.

 

You need to realize that everything evolves. If one company is offering certain features now, then you must also offer those now. Companies aren't competing with release versions of other MMOs. They compete with their products as they are now.

 

Couple that with the fact the devs openly told the beta players they weren't needed, or liked, and only around because they had to have a beta to conform to industry standards. Not to mention things like LFG, and a lot of the other QoL changes, were said to be unwanted and unneeded by the developers in beta.

 

Luckily for EA/BW, those arrogant, and ignorant, devs lost their jobs.

Refreshing