Theory on the Emperor's Fate [SPOILERS]

[Darth_Wicked]

You are misinterpreting my theory for fact. The game has provided us no proof that the Emperor is dead, neither has it provided any evidence that he is alive.

 

Yes it has, unless of course, once more, we're to question the validity of the info the game provides through mails and stuff.

 

We as the player and left to make our own decision, the game practically invites us to do so!

 

You are not left to make a decision when the game provides info about it. As said before, over and over and over again, the Emperor's Hand clearly states that the Emperor, although weakened, is still alive.

 

Doesn't get much clearer than that. Ignoring it won't change anything at all.

 

I am not ignoring what the game is telling me, hence why I take what the Hand said into account. You are in the same position as I am, you believe the Emperor is alive, so your giving reasons for why what Marr and Satele say is not indicative of the truth.

 

Yet you have failed to provide thus far the source of your claim. I've already provided the link where Hood says the Emperor's fate is unclear. Where's yours? Nowhere to be seen thus far.

 

And no, given the fact that my claim is backed up by both the game, I'm nowhere near in the same position, not to mention the bit concerning Hall Hood I mentioned repeatedly in this thread.

 

I am doing the same but for the opposing side, neither of us can say we are right, but we can give reasons for why are side is more likely.

 

You haven't given a single reason thus far, other than disputing the validity of what has been told to us by the game and a vague statement by Hood, that you have failed to back up.

 

So really we should not be getting bogged down in whether this stance can be adopted or not, and instead actually debate the theory itself. Your stance is valid, my stance is valid. You say that you'd like to have this debate, yet seem to be attempting to knock the chair from under my argument, rendering it entirely moot. What do you want me to say? "My stance is entirely wrong and cannot be upheld in anyway /unsubscribe and delete thread.

 

You are entitled to your theory but IMO, you should at least have some facts to back it up, which you don't. Instead, you insist in ignoring what you find inconvenient and distort here and there, what you find convenient.

 

And as for the link, I'm afraid your just going to have to trust that I didn't make it up. As I said in by post the podcast is no longer available, if you can get hold of it, that would be great.

 

Apologies but I don't. Not saying you're not being honest about it but I'm going to assume that you most likely misunderstood him... Like I said, in a video available for everyone, Hall Hood says the Emperor's fate is unclear.

 

Hall Hood interview said the Knight destroyed the Emperor's body.

 

Provide source or forever hold your peace, not to mention that, as I said already, Hall Hood mentioned that the Emperor's fate is unclear.

 

IN other words his true body. Remember he wasn't fazed when the voice on Voss died but suddenly is extremely weakened when his voice on DK dies? No Bioware's 'amazing storylines' are long gone. Knight destroyed his true body, forget older canon.

 

Yet again, one more person contradicting what the game says.

 

He is at best a force ghost looking for something else to possess.

 

Being a force ghost would probably imply that he died, which hasn't been the case, unless you can provide a source claiming otherwise.

 

It's extremely obvious that Darth Marr is going to take the forefront for a while.

 

Not entirely relevant to the discussion I'd say.

 

- - - -

 

Either way, I think we're going in circles. I've provided a link where Hall Hood says that the Emperor's fate is unclear yet people insist that he once said that the Emperor is dead... For the sake of having a balanced and interesting debate, it would be nice if anyone could provide a link for that. Saying it ad infinitum won't make it true.

[Beniboybling]

How can there be any misinterpreting the following: "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.”? And that is quoted word for word. You accuse me of ignoring what the Hands are saying, you accuse me of distorting evidence were I find it convenient. Yet you are ignoring what Hall Hood says above because I can't provide a link, instead you are passing it of as me misunderstanding what he said because it doesn't fit in with your particular theory. How is there any difference? The podcast unfortunately is no longer avaliable, and we can't do anything about that - sorry.

 

P.S. The Hands have provided no proof that the Emperor is alive, they have not brought us to see him in his slumber, we are therefore not entitled to believe them. In-game characters can lie, I'd like to think game developers don't lie to us.

 

P.P.S. Hall Hood says the fate of the Emperor is unclear, yet you stubbornly refuse to allow me to disagree when you say the Emperor is definitely and most certainly alive and that is an indisputable fact. Why can't we just have this debate?

Edited April 21, 2013 by Beniboybling

[SuperGrunt]

You seem to be treating me as if I'm some kind of politician, and have a vested interest in believing the Emperor is dead and will therefore fabricate material to make it look like this is the case. I do not, its just what I believe given the material I have been presented with. I'm perfectly happy to change my mind, yet nothing has really convinced me.

 

This is the way I see it:

 

The Hand's say the Emperor is dead. They give me no proof, they have reasons to lie, I therefore do not believe them. If the Emperor, in game, came right up to me and said 'I'm alive' then I'd change my mind and it would be illogical to disagree. In that case the game would be telling me the Emperor is alive. However in this case, in-game characters are telling me the Emperor is alive, and providing no proof - big difference. I do not have to believe them.

 

Especially since Darth Marr has told me that the Emperor is dead, and so has Hall Hood, pretty definitively. I didn't find any evidence of what you said in that video either I'm afraid, perhaps I missed it.

 

I'm not saying it is the case, but it is a possibility. And if it was the case it wouldn't raise any glaring errors or plot holes but rather correct and fill them.

 

Ok so let's assume that his interview that you can't find anymore happened. Hall Hood did state in that video that you where talking about that the fate of the Emperor is unclear. Isn't it possible that Hall Hood stating that the Emperor was dead was out of his opinion that he was dead as he worked on the Jedi Knight Story? Isn't it further possible that he was unaware of what the story of the Sith Warrior was and that he at the time of that interview was unaware of the actual fate of the Emperor? And Darth Marr didn't state that the Emperor is dead but that he hasn't been seen and is assumed to be dead or dying. What the leaders of the Republic are stating could be explained as propaganda, in other words they are promoting a news story that best helps the moral of their side. And as to your statement that the Hands are lying because it suits them? HUH? Where do you get that? Without someone in the leadership role of the Emperor, then the Empire is weaker, and they will get killed by the Republic. I don't think that dying is in their best interests.

[Beniboybling]

Ok so let's assume that his interview that you can't find anymore happened. Hall Hood did state in that video that you where talking about that the fate of the Emperor is unclear. Isn't it possible that Hall Hood stating that the Emperor was dead was out of his opinion that he was dead as he worked on the Jedi Knight Story? Isn't it further possible that he was unaware of what the story of the Sith Warrior was and that he at the time of that interview was unaware of the actual fate of the Emperor? And Darth Marr didn't state that the Emperor is dead but that he hasn't been seen and is assumed to be dead or dying. What the leaders of the Republic are stating could be explained as propaganda, in other words they are promoting a news story that best helps the moral of their side. And as to your statement that the Hands are lying because it suits them? HUH? Where do you get that? Without someone in the leadership role of the Emperor, then the Empire is weaker, and they will get killed by the Republic. I don't think that dying is in their best interests.

Hall Hood is currently the Lead Writer and SWTOR and he wrote the Jedi Knight story, so I wouldn't pass it off as speculation, especially as he has control over where the story goes next. However I'm also aware that different stories are actually more separate than you would expect. However given that he is the Lead Writer, that he works at BioWare and likely has played all the classes, I'd say he is very much aware of the email

 

Also, Darth Marr pretty much says the Emperor is dead. The dialogue is as follows:

 

Governor Saresh: The Sith Emperor is dead

 

Satele Shan: A Jedi strike team confronted the Emperor during a recent attack on Dromund Kaas. Now a joint SIS and Jedi committee has concluded that the galaxy's greatest villain is gone forever.

 

....

 

Darth Marr: They speak truth. The Emperor is gone, dying if not dead, no matter what our propagandists say. He will not be mourned.

 

Your Character: You say the Emperor is gone, what happened to him?

 

Darth Marr: A Jedi struck him down; he is not mortal as we are, but he no longer speaks to the council.

 

Darth Marr believes the Emperor is dead, and confirms what the Republic is saying. And what he said pretty much mirrors what Hood said in his interview with TOR wars. Like Marr, Hood said that the Emperor was struck down by the Jedi Knight on Dromund Kaas. He went on to say that this may not be the first time the Emperor has died, and that he may exist in some sort of spiritual form. This would support what Marr says as the Emperor being 'not mortal as we are'. Hood also says that the fate of the Emperor is unclear, which is pretty much what he says in the previous interview. The Emperor may be dead in bodily form, but that does not mean he's gone forever, his final fate is very much uncertain. So really the statements do not contradict one another. Also concerning the link, unforunately the podcast is no longer avaliable and all get is this. It sucks and I'd love to get around it, but I can't.

 

What the Republic says is of course propaganda, but the finale of the JK story would suggest they believe it. And as for the Hand's lying, they would do so for exactly the reason you said. So perhaps you misread of misunderstood me. Without an Emperor to lead them, the Empire is in trouble. So in the instance that the Emperor were to die, it would be in the Hand's best interests to fabricate a story explaining his sudden disappearance, rather announce to the entire Empire that he is dead - which would not be good for morale, not good at all.

 

Nonetheless until the game actually definitely proves to us that the Emperor is dead or alive. We can only speculate.

 

What's more, in-game character statements aren't the be all and end all. Especially given the fact that this game isn't even finished yet. For example in KOTOR you are told you are a regular soldier, then it turns out that your Revan.

 

P.S. This isn't directed at you but I find it strange that people can say: "You can't dispute what the Hands tell you" yet are perfectly happy to say the Governor Saresh wasn't telling the truth when she said "The Sith Emperor is dead." Its clear we can't take everything for face value and believe it just because its been said.

[Darth_Wicked]

How can there be any misinterpreting the following: "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.”?

 

And where was that stated by the game's developers or within the game?

 

And that is quoted word for word. You accuse me of ignoring what the Hands are saying, you accuse me of distorting evidence were I find it convenient.

 

I'm not the only one truth be told.

 

Yet you are ignoring what Hall Hood says above because I can't provide a link, instead you are passing it of as me misunderstanding what he said because it doesn't fit in with your particular theory.

 

My theory is backed up by info currently present in the game. Yours is not. Period.

 

How is there any difference? The podcast unfortunately is no longer avaliable, and we can't do anything about that - sorry.

 

We can simply ignore your theory altogether, since unfortunately for you, you have no data whatsoever to back it up. As simple as that. We can walk around in circles all day yet in the end, that's the truth of it.

 

P.S. The Hands have provided no proof that the Emperor is alive, they have not brought us to see him in his slumber, we are therefore not entitled to believe them. In-game characters can lie, I'd like to think game developers don't lie to us.

 

Yet the same does not apply to Saresh, Satele and Marr then? Again, you keep twisting what the game tells you, whenever it suits your needs.

 

As far as sources go, the Emperor's Hand is far more reliable than Saresh, Marr or Satele, for more than obvious reasons. Marr himself states that the Emperor had been silent for many years, as was his prerogative... Yet, as far as I can remember, you get to speak to him as his Wrath, thanks to the Hand, who provided a location for the Voice.

 

I ask again... Who's more likely lying, if you want to put it that way?

 

P.P.S. Hall Hood says the fate of the Emperor is unclear, yet you stubbornly refuse to allow me to disagree when you say the Emperor is definitely and most certainly alive and that is an indisputable fact. Why can't we just have this debate?[/color]

[

 

As I've stated a million times before, the most reliable source in the game says that the Emperor, altough weakened, is alive and even before that, they did say that the Dark Council runs blind and only the Hand knows the Emperor's true motives.

 

Marr, on the other hand, was apparently even willing to recognize Baras' as the Emperor's Voice, most likely because it suited his needs... I find it ironic that you apparently defend his character yet fail to address this character flaw of his, even when the game clearly states that the Emperor was alive and well back then and that Baras was not the voice; I honestly doubt Vorawn was the only one who realized.

 

Hall Hood is currently the Lead Writer and SWTOR and he wrote the Jedi Knight story, so I wouldn't pass it off as speculation, especially as he has control over where the story goes next.

 

As a matter of fact, the storyline was written by him and Drew Karpyshyn. Hall Hood was also too busy writing stuff for the Smuggler storyline and that's info currently available on the site. Again, you choose to disregard and / or ignore information whenever you find it convenient. Definately not a first...

 

However I'm also aware that different stories are actually more separate than you would expect. However given that he is the Lead Writer, that he works at BioWare and likely has played all the classes, I'd say he is very much aware of the email.

 

I don't question that nor, unlike some, question the validity of said e-mail.

 

Also, Darth Marr pretty much says the Emperor is dead. The dialogue is as follows:

 

Governor Saresh: The Sith Emperor is dead

 

Satele Shan: A Jedi strike team confronted the Emperor during a recent attack on Dromund Kaas. Now a joint SIS and Jedi committee has concluded that the galaxy's greatest villain is gone forever.

 

....

 

Darth Marr: They speak truth. The Emperor is gone, dying if not dead, no matter what our propagandists say. He will not be mourned.

 

Your Character: You say the Emperor is gone, what happened to him?

 

Darth Marr: A Jedi struck him down; he is not mortal as we are, but he no longer speaks to the council.

 

I'm not sure this is even worth discussing... How is it you can find far more reliable the findings of Satele and Saresh, against the Emperor's Hand? Does this even make any sense at all?

 

Also, as I've mentioned repeatedly, the Emperor had been silent for many years and didn't speak with the Council for ages, as said by the Emperor's Hand. Again, glad to see you keep ignoring stuff whenever you find it convenient.

 

Darth Marr believes the Emperor is dead, and confirms what the Republic is saying. And what he said pretty much mirrors what Hood said in his interview with TOR wars. Like Marr, Hood said that the Emperor was struck down by the Jedi Knight on Dromund Kaas. He went on to say that this may not be the first time the Emperor has died, and that he may exist in some sort of spiritual form. This would support what Marr says as the Emperor being 'not mortal as we are'. Hood also says that the fate of the Emperor is unclear, which is pretty much what he says in the previous interview. The Emperor may be dead in bodily form, but that does not mean he's gone forever, his final fate is very much uncertain. So really the statements do not contradict one another. Also concerning the link, unforunately the podcast is no longer avaliable and all get is this. It sucks and I'd love to get around it, but I can't.

 

Wanna know a secret? I'm actually the Emperor in disguise but since I don't have a link to back it up, I'll just ask you to take my word for it. Seems doable, given your approach to "facts" and what's necessary to back them up.

 

For the rest, look above for what I said already.

 

What the Republic says is of course propaganda, but the finale of the JK story would suggest they believe it. And as for the Hand's lying, they would do so for exactly the reason you said. So perhaps you misread of misunderstood me. Without an Emperor to lead them, the Empire is in trouble. So in the instance that the Emperor were to die, it would be in the Hand's best interests to fabricate a story explaining his sudden disappearance, rather announce to the entire Empire that he is dead - which would not be good for morale, not good at all.

 

It would suggest they believe because - and I'm only assuming(!!!) here - the Emperor's Hand didn't send the mail to the Jedi Council and the Wrath but ONLY to the latter.

 

Nonetheless until the game actually definitely proves to us that the Emperor is dead or alive. We can only speculate.

 

Not really, since in this case, the Dark Council keeps running blind, Darth Marr has his agenda, having in mind he was apparently willing to support Baras as the Voice, there's the mail which, YET AGAIN, I'm going to assume did not make his way to the Jedi Council.

 

What's more, in-game character statements aren't the be all and end all. Especially given the fact that this game isn't even finished yet. For example in KOTOR you are told you are a regular soldier, then it turns out that your Revan.

 

Now you're clutching at straws no doubt.

 

P.S. This isn't directed at you but I find it strange that people can say: "You can't dispute what the Hands tell you" yet are perfectly happy to say the Governor Saresh wasn't telling the truth when she said "The Sith Emperor is dead." Its clear we can't take everything for face value and believe it just because its been said.[/color]

 

She reported the findings of a committee. That was it, nothing more. There's info in the game that would prove otherwise, info that as you know, she doesn't have access to. Why you insist on ignoring such a simple fact is beyond me.

[Beniboybling]

So basically, your going to ignore what Hall Hood said because I am physically incapable of providing a link to back it up? OK then.

[Beniboybling]

You haven't given a single reason thus far, other than disputing the validity of what has been told to us by the game and a vague statement by Hood, that you have failed to back up.

Minor SW and Makeb spoilers and major JK spoilers up ahead.

 

In the wake of the Rise of the Hutt Cartel Expansion, in which both Darth Marr and Satele Shan confirmed the Sith Emperor’s death, I thought I’d put forward a theory I put together on the Emperor’s fate after the events of Act 3. As you may already know, the Hero of Tython defeated an Emperor within the depths of the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas. But was it the true Emperor, or a Voice? Or something else entirely? Here’s my theory on the matter, supporting the belief that the true Emperor is dead.

 

1 – Clothing. There is a distinct difference between what the 'Emperor' (by this I mean the being fought at the Dark Temple) wears and what the known/confirmed Voices wear. The Voss Voice wears [white] robes, whereas the 'Emperor' wears distinctive black robes, the same as the Emperor wore in Revan. Yes I hear you saying he's wearing the robes of a Voss mystic, but consider this - the Voss has been possessed for a decade, giving him ample time to change to the distinctive black. And for all those of you who have read the webcomic – Blood of the Empire – you'll be aware that the current Voice at that time also wears white. Coincidence? Perhaps. But there are only two paths we can take here, either it’s a coincidence or it’s not. If it’s a coincidence it doesn't matter, the fact remains that the Voice wears robes differing from the black robes worn by true Emperor. And if it is not, then white is the distinctive colour of the Voice. In both scenarios we can feasibly assume that the being met at the Dark Temple was in fact the Emperor - dressed in the same iconic robes he wore when confronted by Revan.

 

2 – Appearance. Concerning the Voss and Human Voice from Blood of the Empire, they show little/no sign of dark side corruption. The Voss mystic is perfectly unaffected, and looks exactly the same as a normal Voss. And the Human Voice, while having yellow eyes (which is irrelevant seeing as Voss have no pupils so comparison can be made), also shows no sign of dark side corruption. His skin is unblemished and in fact looks quite young. So we can assume that when a vessel is possessed by the Emperor, the vessel is not visibly corrupted. And yet, the being that the Hero of Tython confronts in the Dark Temple - despite only being a Voice for what? A couple of months? – displays extreme dark side corruption. Red eyes, pale wrinkled skin, purple veins – the full package. The most logical explanation is that he is the Emperor himself – displaying similar levels of dark side corruption as he did in when confronted by Revan 300 years prior.

 

3 – Death. In the SW storyline, the Emperor, through his Voice, demands the Wrath kills him - so that he can escape his trapped body. This seems to have little/no impact on the Emperor. The body dies (it doesn't even disappear like it does in Dark Temple) and the Emperor accepts the Voice's death, and goes on with his life. And yet when the so called 'Voice' is killed by the Hero of Tython, the body is destroyed, the Emperor is enraged, supposedly 'recuperating', and the Empire falls into disarray believing their leader to be dead. This is because he is dead; the only logical explanation is that the Emperor was killed in the Dark Temple by the Hero of Tython.

 

4 – The Children. The Children of the Emperor are a group of individuals who have a unique connection with the Emperor’s mind. After the Emperor’s ‘death’ the remaining Children began to hear the Emperor’s voice in their minds louder than ever – jibbering and incoherent. This would seem to suggest that the Emperor is indeed dead with his Force ghost in limbo between reality and Chaos (the Sith Netherworld of the Force), struggling to escape and latching onto to the few remaining connections he has to life.

 

(A final additional point. The Voss Voice met by the Wrath is labelled 'The Voice of the Emperor' - whereas the 'Voice' faced in the Dark Temple was called 'The Emperor'. Not exactly hard evidence but only adds to the distinction.)

 

Problems

 

But this creates a few problems, which must be met and resolved. Firstly it contradicts what the Wrath was told by the Hands, who said it was the Voice of the Emperor that was killed, not the Emperor. However it’s highly possible that they lied. I mean, let’s say I'm right and the Hand told the Wrath the truth – the conversation would go something like this: "Hey Wrath, err... you know the Emperor? You know, our leader? Yeah... well... small problem. He's err, he's dead basically. So... we kind of don't have a leader anymore. But don't worry! It’s all under control. You just, just keep smashing the Republic. I mean, you’re not really the Emperor's Wrath anymore... but err, just... keep at it! Ok, err bye. And long live the... oh wait..." As you can see not only would it be awkward, but they also can't trust the Emperor's Wrath. They have no reason to, after all the previous Wrath has already betrayed them; they’re not going to trust another so easily. The most likely explanation is that it’s all an elaborate ruse, if the entire Empire found out, it would collapse, even mere rumours have begun to cause fractures. They have to keep it a secret, and the best way to do this is create a false rumour to explain his disappearance.

 

The second problem is that everything seems to point the Emperor's survival, and some sort of 'essence transfer'. But the Emperor can still be dead, however only his body. It’s possible that he still exists in some sort of spiritual form, hence how he collapsed the Dark Temple chamber, and how the Children can still hear him.

What’s more, in an interview with the Lead Writer, Hall Hood (who also wrote the JK storyline) – he says this: "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.”

 

But like I said, he goes on to say, or at least hints, that the Emperor lives on in some sort of spiritual form. And hints that he may return. He also mentions something else interesting; he implies that this isn't the first time the Emperor's body has died. So perhaps whilst being the Emperor, it was the 2nd, 3rd or even 4th incarnation of him. Hence him not being Sith or some sort of hybrid like he is presented in Revan. Personally, I’d like to see the Emperor return in another update – the option is has certainly been left open. And Vitiate wouldn't be the first Sith to escape from Chaos.

 

P.S. Unfortunately TORwars podcast interview with Hall Hood is no longer avaliable, if anyone can provide a working link I'd be grateful!

 

Thoughts?

[SuperGrunt]

So basically, your going to ignore what Hall Hood said because I am physically incapable of providing a link to back it up? OK then.

 

Yep, just like I wouldn't believe someone got a billion damage or healing in a game of Huttball unless they provided an unaltered screenshot, I am not going to take your word for it that Hall Hood said the grass is green without a link to prove he said it. Also like I said before, his latest statement is that "the fate of the Emperor is unclear" THAT"S NOT DEAD! That means that it is open to speculation until such time as BioWare decides to make it known.

[SuperGrunt]

Hall Hood is currently the Lead Writer and SWTOR and he wrote the Jedi Knight story, so I wouldn't pass it off as speculation, especially as he has control over where the story goes next. However I'm also aware that different stories are actually more separate than you would expect. However given that he is the Lead Writer, that he works at BioWare and likely has played all the classes, I'd say he is very much aware of the email

 

Also, Darth Marr pretty much says the Emperor is dead. The dialogue is as follows:

 

Governor Saresh: The Sith Emperor is dead

 

Satele Shan: A Jedi strike team confronted the Emperor during a recent attack on Dromund Kaas. Now a joint SIS and Jedi committee has concluded that the galaxy's greatest villain is gone forever.

 

....

 

Darth Marr: They speak truth. The Emperor is gone, dying if not dead, no matter what our propagandists say. He will not be mourned.

 

Your Character: You say the Emperor is gone, what happened to him?

 

Darth Marr: A Jedi struck him down; he is not mortal as we are, but he no longer speaks to the council.

 

Darth Marr believes the Emperor is dead, and confirms what the Republic is saying. And what he said pretty much mirrors what Hood said in his interview with TOR wars. Like Marr, Hood said that the Emperor was struck down by the Jedi Knight on Dromund Kaas. He went on to say that this may not be the first time the Emperor has died, and that he may exist in some sort of spiritual form. This would support what Marr says as the Emperor being 'not mortal as we are'. Hood also says that the fate of the Emperor is unclear, which is pretty much what he says in the previous interview. The Emperor may be dead in bodily form, but that does not mean he's gone forever, his final fate is very much uncertain. So really the statements do not contradict one another. Also concerning the link, unforunately the podcast is no longer avaliable and all get is this. It sucks and I'd love to get around it, but I can't.

 

What the Republic says is of course propaganda, but the finale of the JK story would suggest they believe it. And as for the Hand's lying, they would do so for exactly the reason you said. So perhaps you misread of misunderstood me. Without an Emperor to lead them, the Empire is in trouble. So in the instance that the Emperor were to die, it would be in the Hand's best interests to fabricate a story explaining his sudden disappearance, rather announce to the entire Empire that he is dead - which would not be good for morale, not good at all.

 

Nonetheless until the game actually definitely proves to us that the Emperor is dead or alive. We can only speculate.

 

What's more, in-game character statements aren't the be all and end all. Especially given the fact that this game isn't even finished yet. For example in KOTOR you are told you are a regular soldier, then it turns out that your Revan.

 

P.S. This isn't directed at you but I find it strange that people can say: "You can't dispute what the Hands tell you" yet are perfectly happy to say the Governor Saresh wasn't telling the truth when she said "The Sith Emperor is dead." Its clear we can't take everything for face value and believe it just because its been said.

 

So what do they say President Obama likes to eat for breakfast, seeing as how those are such reliable sources of information on Heads of State. Also it's not Governor Saresh any more, she is the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic now.

[_biddan_]

uuuuh you eretical weakling!

the emperor is alive,the hand tells you that he is ALIVE,heck,they even gifted me a sith decorative blade.

[Onyxus]

He probably isn't dead but I don't think the Empire really needs him anymore.

 

Probably already been mentioned in this threat but yeah the Republic sends out a broadcast message saying that the SIS and the Jedi Committee has concluded that the Emperor is dead.

 

Shortly after Darth Marr also says: "They speak truth, the Emperor is gone, dying if not dead. No matter what our propagandists say. He will not be mourned."

 

Option 2: "You say the Emperor is gone... what happened to him?"

 

Darth Marr: "The Jedi struck him down, he is not mortal as we are, but he no longer speaks to the Council. Now is our chance to reforge in the flames of battle, to reshape the empire into a form of unity and strength. In the coming months we will stand against the Republic offensive and those who will weaken us from within, and emerge stronger."

 

Then if you say option two (Imperial loyalist here + Quinn likes it) you basically agree that too many sith have tried to obtain power against the interests of the empire, and that many Moffs who seek to aid the empire's interests have been met with incompetence doing the deeds of the power hungry sith, simply because they have to.

 

I don't think Darth Marr really cares weather the Emperor is alive or not, as it seems he doesn't' have time to sit around and wait for his return. The Empire needs to act quickly to ensure it's survival, and a reform would be necessary in which the core foundation of it is not the Emperor himself.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Onyxus

[Beniboybling]

Yep, just like I wouldn't believe someone got a billion damage or healing in a game of Huttball unless they provided an unaltered screenshot, I am not going to take your word for it that Hall Hood said the grass is green without a link to prove he said it. Also like I said before, his latest statement is that "the fate of the Emperor is unclear" THAT"S NOT DEAD! That means that it is open to speculation until such time as BioWare decides to make it known.

What your doing here is taking the situation and ramping it up to an illogical extreme. It is no so illogical to assume that Hall Hood said what I claim him to say, given that the podcast exists and it would be more illogical if I were to fabricate a quote just to help my theory. Like I said, not getting paid here. I know you don't know me and have no reason to respect me, but I suppose I was being naive when I thought that kinda stuff was a given.

 

But either way this is all the evidence I am able to provide, I feel a bit ridiculous doing this as I shouldn't really have to be here goes:

 

A thread on the SWTOR forums posted by a podcast producer at TORwars

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=524837

 

Another thread posted concerning the same topic

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=524689

 

The podcast itself in the TORwars podcast archive.

http://torwars.com/category/podcasts/page/6/

 

A formative version of this theory that I posted back in November when the podcast was available, in which I specify the exact location of were the quote crops up, I'd like to think that proves I'm not making this all up.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=558647&page=3

 

But alas, I fear there is no convincing you. So we are at an impasse. Nonetheless my entire theory does not rest on this one quote as I believe the Emperor dead long before I came across that podcast. It only rests on the fact that the Hand's could be lying and until stated otherwise we have no reason to believe that they are not.

 

Also remember that this is just as theory, and I am no means saying it is canon fact, like Hood says the Emperor's fate is uncertain, and BioWare themselves likely haven't come to a unanimous decision. So there is room for speculation, which is what this is.

 

So I'd rather just move on from that, if you have anything to say about my other points, that would be great. The main reason I posted it here was for feedback.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

So what do they say President Obama likes to eat for breakfast, seeing as how those are such reliable sources of information on Heads of State. Also it's not Governor Saresh any more, she is the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic now.

Well, lets also remember that it was the Hero of Tython, a Jedi in service of the Republic who struck down 'the Emperor'. And it was Lord Scourge, the former Wrath of the Emperor, whom opted to stay behind to ensure that the Emperor truly is dead.

 

So what Saresh says would seem to imply that Lord Scourge and the Hero of Tython believe the Emperor to be dead. Propaganda? Perhaps. But we can't say for sure.

 

Either way, not everyone is in agreement and nobody has hard evidence. The Emperor's fate remains uncertain.

[Beniboybling]

He probably isn't dead but I don't think the Empire really needs him anymore.

I would disagree. The Emperor is like a God to the citizens of the Empire, so when the Republic claim that they killed the Emperor they had been led to believe was immortal, morale is going to be hit hard.

 

It will also lead to a power vacuum, when the Emperor was their in the forefront. Few stepped out of line, any rebellions were crushed swiftly and effectively. However as soon as the Emperor retreated from power during the Great Galactic War, infighting became more frequent and power grabs more common. And now the Emperor has disappeared completely its just gotten worse. Darth Jadus and Darth Malgus are the biggest example of this, both thought they could take over the Empire and the Emperor would do nothing to stop them.

 

So all in all this spells very bad news for the Empire, but your right, the Emperor wasn't really doing much anyway. However as a symbol he was important.

[Selenial]

Have you played imperial makeb?

Darth Marr states:

"He was struck down, he is not a mortal being but he no longer speeds to the council..........(gap)...... He will not be forgotten"

Leading me to believe he's not dead, just extremely wounded and has given up on the empire.... Thoughts?

Edited April 22, 2013 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Have you played imperial makeb?

Darth Marr states:

"He was struck down, he is not a mortal being but he no longer speeds to the council..........(gap)...... He will not be forgotten"

Leading me to believe he's not dead, just extremely wounded and has given up on the empire.... Thoughts?

Yes I have, which is what prompted me to finally put this theory forward. Well lets consider what Darth Marr knows (or at least is capable of knowing):

 

 

• That 'an Emperor' was struck down by a Jedi Knight in the Dark Temple after a strike on Dromund Kaas - given the fact that Defense of the Empire is his sphere of influence.
   
   
  
• That the Emperor (likely as the Voice) has not communed with the Council for a very long time.
  

 

He basically knows as much as we do, so his words don't bear a great deal of weight. Nonetheless he is intelligent and his is the de facto leader of the Dark Council, so we can't dismiss his opinion entirely. However I wouldn't get too hung up on it, and see it as proof of much.

 

P.S. Personally I believe that Marr is basically saying what he's saying that the Emperor is 'dead if not dying.' Not sure if any other interpretation can be drawn.

 

P.P.S What we can say for certain is that the Emperor is alive in some form as he collapsed the Dark Temple on the JK's head and has been babbling incoherently into the heads of his Children. I reckon that he is 'alive' but in a spiritual form. And Hall Hood said something to the effect of: just because his body as died, doesn't mean he's dead. That is if you believe that podcast exists.

[jovianus]

Yes I have, which is what prompted me to finally put this theory forward. Well lets consider what Darth Marr knows (or at least is capable of knowing):

 

 

• That 'an Emperor' was struck down by a Jedi Knight in the Dark Temple after a strike on Dromund Kaas - given the fact that Defense of the Empire is his sphere of influence.
   
   
  
• That the Emperor (likely as the Voice) has not communed with the Council for a very long time.
  

 

He basically knows as much as we do, so his words don't bear a great deal of weight. Nonetheless he is intelligent and his is the de facto leader of the Dark Council, so we can't dismiss his opinion entirely. However I wouldn't get too hung up on it, and see it as proof of much.

 

P.S. Personally I believe that Marr is basically saying what he's saying that the Emperor is 'dead if not dying.' Not sure if any other interpretation can be drawn.

 

I'd point out that the Emperor has been..detached from the affairs of the Empire for some time.

 

Act 1 for the Imperial Agent and Act 3 for the Sith Warrior both revolve around an enemy who is taking advantage of the Emperor's apparent distraction for their own benefit. So it's not like the Emperor was heavily involved in the day to day affairs of the Empire and then suddenly went silent after the Jedi Knight's attack.

 

The Sith Warrior meets the Voice of the Emperor on Voss, so unless we're assuming some large time jump between the SW story on Voss and the Knight's attack on the Emperor, it's apparent that the Emperor hadn't been very communicative with the Council for quite a while even before the attack.

 

It's pretty much what you said, de facto head of the Dark Council and bright guy or not, Darth Marr really doesn't know much more about what the Emperor is doing or what happened to him than anyone else. The Republic claims to have killed the Emperor and the Emperor continues to be silent, so with no other information forthcoming Marr has no choice but to act as though it's true, because with the current course of the war the Empire can't afford to just sit around and hope for the Emperor to reappear.

[Beniboybling]

Indeed, and what also struck me is how unphased the Emperor was when the Jedi Knight confronted him. And yet regardless of what your stance is he was in serious danger. Given the condition his is in now and that his Empire is falling apart without him.

 

So surely he must have some sort of contingency plan for all this? This leads me to believe that the Emperor will make a come back in some sort of form, and he will be angry.

 

But I honestly think its unlikely his true body is still out there. I mean, lets look at this from an out-of-universe perspective. If the true body still exists, someones going to destroy it, which means Mission to the Dark Temple part 2 - basically we'll end up fighting the same Emperor wearing the same robes but this time with a red face or a mask or something. Which would be kinda lame and dull. Also BioWare would have to introduce Emperor's Space Station 2.0 with a slightly different layout to explain where exactly the Emperor is being kept. And given the consensus among the forums, it would be pretty predictable.

 

Alternatively if BioWare decide the Emperor is dead, they open up a whole load of plot paths. The Wrath could be summoned to meet the Hands and there could be a big reveal that they deceived the Wrath. What could follow is a whole knew plot line were the Wrath has to do something to help recover the Emperor's wandering essence and a counter plotline for the JK and or JC. Alternatively the Emperor could possess someone of importance and go crazy on the entire galaxy, leading to another expansion like Makeb, or alternatively he could end up like Sel-Makor, providing another boss-orientated storyline. The possibilities are endless.

 

This is why I believe that BioWare will opt for option two, given both are perfectly viable.

[Darth_Wicked]

(...) So surely he must have some sort of contingency plan for all this? This leads me to believe that the Emperor will make a come back in some sort of form, and he will be angry. (...)

 

Say what? Are you telling me the Emperor is not dead? I'm pretty sure you're being forthcoming about this, just like the Emperor's Hand. It's pretty obvious by now that the dude is dead, having in mind Marr, Satele and Saresh, the chick who did so well when it comes to the reconstruction of Taris.

 

THIS is how you've sounded for four or five pages, to reach a conclusion some of us, if not MOST, reached like ages ago.

 

Either way, welcome to the real world. Took you long enough.

 

Edited April 22, 2013 by Darth_Wicked

[Beniboybling]

Say what? Are you telling me the Emperor is not dead? I'm pretty sure you're being forthcoming about this, just like the Emperor's Hand. It's pretty obvious by now that the dude is dead, having in mind Marr, Satele and Saresh, the chick who did so well when it comes to the reconstruction of Taris.

 

THIS is how you've sounded for four or five pages, to reach a conclusion some of us, if not MOST, reached like ages ago.

 

Either way, welcome to the real world. Took you long enough.

Again, I'm beginning to doubt if you ever read my theory in the first place. When I say 'the Emperor is likely dead' I mean he has undergone a bodily death - his essence is most certainly out there, somewhere.

 

But other than what the Hand's said, most of the facts seem to point to a bodily death of the Emperor.

 

EDIT: The only reason I've sounded like 'that' is because you've latched on to one part of my argument and refused to let go to the point of denying certain statements were ever made.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Darth_Wicked]

Again, I'm beginning to doubt if you ever read my theory in the first place. When I say 'the Emperor is likely dead' I mean he has undergone a bodily death - his essence is most certainly out there, somewhere.

 

There was no theory to begin with, since from the start, you wrote it on the assumption that everyone was being right and true, except for the Emperor's Hand, which, despite what you may want to imply, is by far the most trustworthy source, when it comes to the Emperor. Period.

 

I'll say it again, just so we're clear: There was never a theory because unlike what you may think, even a theory needs something to be based upon, which is the opposite of what you did. Trying to ignore what the game says, concerning the Hand and not backing up Hood's statement? You're a bad boy, mister.

 

But other than what the Hand's said, most of the facts seem to point to a bodily death of the Emperor.

 

And what the Emperor's Hand says is what matters, since thus far, they've shown no ill will towards the Emperor, unlike Marr, Satele and Saresh.

 

EDIT: The only reason I've sounded like 'that' is because you've latched on to one part of my argument and refused to let go to the point of denying certain statements were ever made.

 

NEVER did that, except for the statement by Hood which you have failed, as we can all see, to prove that it actually exists.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Darth_Wicked

[Beniboybling]

There was no theory to begin with, since from the start, you wrote it on the assumption that everyone was being right and true, except for the Emperor's Hand, which, despite what you may want to imply, is by far the most trustworthy source, when it comes to the Emperor. Period.

 

I'll say it again, just so we're clear: There was never a theory because unlike what you may think, even a theory needs something to be based upon, which is the opposite of what you did. Trying to ignore what the game says, concerning the Hand and not backing up Hood's statement? You're a bad boy, mister.

 

 

 

And what the Emperor's Hand says is what matters, since thus far, they've shown no ill will towards the Emperor, unlike Marr, Satele and Saresh.

My theory is based on the following;

 

Clothing.

Appearance.

Death.

Children.

Hall Hood (I'm beyond caring whether you believe this or not.)

 

The Hand's have shown no ill will to the Emperor? So what? Surely that would be an incentive to lie if anything. Try and find the Emperor a new body before somebody decides to take over.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Darth_Wicked]

My theory is based on the following;

 

Clothing.

Appearance.

Death.

Children.

 

That bit is actually irrelevant, since we have information from within the game stating that the Emperor is still alive. Whether you consider it truthful or not, well, it's also irrelevant.

 

Hall Hood (I'm beyond caring whether you believe this or not.)

 

The only relevant bit that could actually add something of interest to the discussion. Ironically enough, you're apparently the only one who's aware of its existence. Must be a conspiracy orchestrated by some surviving member of the Star Cabal possibly.

 

The Hand's have shown no ill will to the Emperor? So what? Surely that would be an incentive to lie if anything. Try and find the Emperor a new body before somebody decides to take over.

 

Funny that you seem not to apply that same reasoning to what both Marr and Saresh say, given their agendas.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Darth_Wicked

[Beniboybling]

That bit is actually irrelevant, since we information from within the game stating that the Emperor is still alive. Whether you consider it truthful or not, well, it's also irrelevant.

 

 

 

The only relevant bit that could actually add something of interest to the discussion. Ironically enough, you're apparently the only one who's aware of its existence. Must be a conspiracy orchestrated by some surviving member of the Star Cabal possibly.

 

 

 

Ironic that you seem not to apply the same reasoning to what both Marr and Saresh say, given their agenda.

Its clear that your in no position to believe that the Emperor's Hand's could possibly be lying so we are at an impasse. Although you've have failed to give any proof that they are telling the truth...

 

And concerning Marr and Saresh, I don't accept what they say as canon fact, but they are simply examples of how the writers are clearly attempting to keep you guessing as to what the Emperor's fate is. If what the Emperor's Hands had said was the be all and end all, their would be no need for this intrigue, Hall Hood would never have said that the Emperor's fate is unclear. Especially given the fact that the majority of people who have not even completed the SW story, are not even aware of this little email. If necessary it could be retconned out of existence.

 

And about Hall Hood. I've provided you with links to the post, and to posts on these forums in which people discussed it, but whatever, I find it quite strange that you refuse to believe me whatsoever. And are absolutely certain that because the podcast has been removed, I must be lying... But hey ho, you meet interesting people on this forums. And some quite stubborn ones...

 

Ah what the heck, the games up and I've won anyway. You're right, I am a member of the Star Cabal. TORwars? They don't even exist, I created that website and inserted a fake link that no longer works. I then set up multiple accounts on SWTOR through creating different emails and setting up several bank accounts across the planet, I then gave them aliases and fabricated fake conversations all over the forums. At times it was tricky, at one point I had to orchestrate an entire 11 page debate in which I was truly the only person involved. It took time. First I had to infiltrate BioWare HQ and kidnap one of their employees, of course after undergoing plastic surgery so I could replace them as a doppelganger. After taking their position I used by new powers a developer to ensure that only I could see or post in the thread, then I posted my theory and a link to the website. But of course nobody would click it, as I was controlling the accounts of all the debaters, hence why nobody said "Hey, this podcast doesn't exist" or disputed Hood's words. It worked perfectly, nobody suspected anything.

 

But unfortunately I misjudged the stubborn mistrust pervading in these forums, despite by extensive efforts to have as many trolls as possible assassinated before I set my plans into action. But it is of no matter *evil cackle* for I've since discovered your location and as we speak my personal line of elite HK-51 assassin droids are moving in to liquidate you. Once this stage of my plan has been completed I'll proceed to take over your account and have you reply on these forums, apologizing for your ridiculous behavior and conceding defeat. And then nothing will stop me from conquering the galaxy! Bwahahahahahaha!

 

...or at least that's what you seem to think happened.

[Darth_Wicked]

Its clear that your in no position to believe that the Emperor's Hand's could possibly be lying so we are at an impasse. Although you've have failed to give any proof that they are telling the truth...

 

I see no reason to actually contradict the info the game provides. However, within the game, there are truths that supercede other truths, for more than obvious reasons. This is definately the case...

 

As told over and over again, the Emperor's Hand has inside knowledge and serves the Emperor directly. Marr and Saresh do not. You may chose to ignore it altogether to suit your non-existent theory but those are facts.

 

And concerning Marr and Saresh, I don't accept what they say as canon fact, but they are simply examples of how the writers are clearly attempting to keep you guessing as to what the Emperor's fate is.

 

They're not keeping you on guessing but rather, it's a basic rule of warfare, which has been done since the beginning of warfare itself: To demoralize one's enemy, by striking a blow to one of the major cogs or so the Republic would think. It's a narrative approach and nothing more.

 

Again, it's safe to assume that Saresh never received the memo by the Hand, concerning the Emperor's survival.

 

If what the Emperor's Hands had said was the be all and end all, their would be no need for this intrigue, Hall Hood would never have said that the Emperor's fate is unclear.

 

One can assume that not everyone has played the storyline for the JK and thus, he is sparse when it comes to details. Haven't I mentioned already how come is strange that it's never mentioned that the SW is not the First Wrath? Haven't I mentioned already that you need to play both the SW and JK storylines, in order to fully realize that Darth Baras made a deal with Sel-Makor, in order to trap the Emperor? That he had been there decades ago, in search for something, even BEFORE Voss was (re)discovered?

 

For one who who likes to quote Kreia from Sith Lords, you certainly are not a fan of thinking a bit outside the box.

 

Especially given the fact that the majority of people who have not even completed the SW story, are not even aware of this little email. If necessary it could be retconned out of existence.

 

Yet, if they payed attention, they are certainly aware that the Emperor went missing. In case you failed to notice, Grand Moff Regus says so on Ilum, after Malgus announces that the Emperor is gone. Among other things, he also mentions that the Children Of The Emperor were defeated and Imperial Intelligence disbanded.

 

And about Hall Hood. I've provided you with links to the post, and to posts on these forums in which people discussed it, but whatever, I find it quite strange that you refuse to believe me whatsoever.

 

I'm not the only one it would seem... Plus, it's only logical for one to provide a source to back his claim. I did so when I said that Hall had stated that the Emperor's fate is unclear at the moment. It would serve you well to do the same; The fact that you are not able to do so is your fault, not mine.

 

And are absolutely certain that because the podcast has been removed, I must be lying... But hey ho, you meet interesting people on this forums. And some quite stubborn ones...

 

I'm not the one being stubborn nor am I the one who actually chose to ignore and / or contradict information given by the game over the course of five(!!!) pages.

 

Ah what the heck, the games up and I've won anyway. You're right, I am a member of the Star Cabal. TORwars? They don't even exist, I created that website and inserted a fake link that no longer works. I then set up multiple accounts on SWTOR through creating different emails and setting up several bank accounts across the planet, I then gave them aliases and fabricated fake conversations all over the forums. At times it was tricky, at one point I had to orchestrate an entire 11 page debate in which I was truly the only person involved. It took time. First I had to infiltrate BioWare HQ and kidnap one of their employees, of course after undergoing plastic surgery so I could replace them as a doppelganger. After taking their position I used by new powers a developer to ensure that only I could see or post in the thread, then I posted my theory and a link to the website. But of course nobody would click it, as I was controlling the accounts of all the debaters, hence why nobody said "Hey, this podcast doesn't exist" or disputed Hood's words. It worked perfectly, nobody suspected anything.

 

But unfortunately I misjudged the stubborn mistrust pervading in these forums, despite by extensive efforts to have as many trolls as possible assassinated before I set my plans into action. But it is of no matter *evil cackle* for I've since discovered your location and as we speak my personal line of elite HK-51 assassin droids are moving in to liquidate you. Once this stage of my plan has been completed I'll proceed to take over your account and have you reply on these forums, apologizing for your ridiculous behavior and conceding defeat. And then nothing will stop me from conquering the galaxy! Bwahahahahahaha!

 

...or at least that's what you seem to think happened.

 

Your time would be far better spent looking for that podcast featuring Hall Hood, not in this gibberish. No offense.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Darth_Wicked