What am I missing? (2.0 Anni DPS too low)

[NoFishing]

First off I admit to being, at best, an average marauder.

 

But prior to 2.0, I was able to pretty consistently do ~1900 DPS on the operations dummy in a mix of 63/61 gear in anni spec. This pretty easily matched both my commando and sage DPS, both in better gear.

 

Now, I struggle to top 1800 in the same gear, while my commando hit 2000 and my sage ~1950. Again, with no gear upgrades. None using adrenals for these tests.

 

Have I missed some critical change in rotation for anni maras?

 

2300 Strength (exotech stim)

1124 Power

85 Crit rating

288 Surge

288 Accuracy

[Omophorus]

First off I admit to being, at best, an average marauder.

 

But prior to 2.0, I was able to pretty consistently do ~1900 DPS on the operations dummy in a mix of 63/61 gear in anni spec. This pretty easily matched both my commando and sage DPS, both in better gear.

 

Now, I struggle to top 1800 in the same gear, while my commando hit 2000 and my sage ~1950. Again, with no gear upgrades. None using adrenals for these tests.

 

Have I missed some critical change in rotation for anni maras?

 

2300 Strength (exotech stim)

1124 Power

85 Crit rating

288 Surge

288 Accuracy

 

Hard to say based on just that.

 

It's likely to be a priority issue rather than a gearing issue, and do keep in mind that Anni's Ops Dummy number neglects Vicious Throw, which does improve DPS in a noteworthy way in actual content. Both Sage and Commando got some DPS bumps (though not really enough to match Marauder/Sentinel) and their dummy numbers are impacted much less by enemy HP.

 

Are you giving absolute priority to keeping Deadly Saber and Annihilate on CD (especially at 4 stacks of Annihilator)? Everything else is pretty much secondary to that. Pulverize procs included. Focus first on using those 2 core skills precisely to CD (especially getting used to the Rage generation requirements to do so), and then work on maximizing the DPGCD value of your filler whilst avoiding starving yourself of Rage for your core skills.

[Thundergulch]

@ the OP, are you still level 50? or are you level 55 in the same gear you were when you were level 50?

Your stats change a lot as you get from 50-55, even if you don't change gear.

[NoFishing]

Thanks for the replies so far. I should have been more clear, sorry about that.

 

My mara is level 55 (my 3rd), and in the same gear as I was in at level 50. I understand the gear gets "worse" as we level. My problem is the relative performance of my mara when compared to my other 55s before and after leveling.

 

I will see if I can capture a good combat log later today when the game isn't laggy and I'm not so tired.

 

For priority, I definitely try to keep deadly saber and annihilate on CD, and make sure I have the rage available for them. Although it wouldn't surprise me if on further review I have trouble keeping them on 100% CD now that we have 4 stacks of Annihilator and it is effectively on a 9s rotation.

 

Second priority is rupture (when off CD and not already ticking). I also try to optimize Berserk so I hit it at 2 stacks of deadly saber, then add the 3rd, to try to get it to tick as much as possible at 3 stacks. Filler is generally Vicious Slash while I wait for a rage builder to come off CD. In an actual fight, Vicious Throw takes priority over Vicious Slash when available.

 

One skill I am still unsure with is Ravage. Since it is free and hits like a truck, I am tempted to use it on CD. But it is also 3 seconds where I might not be able to hit Annihilate/Deadly Saber/Rupture, and it can't finish the CD on Rupture. So it feels like it should be better to save it and use it to bide time for a real rage builder to come off CD for those moments when my only other option is Assault.

[Thundergulch]

Thanks for the replies so far. I should have been more clear, sorry about that.

 

My mara is level 55 (my 3rd), and in the same gear as I was in at level 50. I understand the gear gets "worse" as we level. My problem is the relative performance of my mara when compared to my other 55s before and after leveling.

 

I will see if I can capture a good combat log later today when the game isn't laggy and I'm not so tired.

 

For priority, I definitely try to keep deadly saber and annihilate on CD, and make sure I have the rage available for them. Although it wouldn't surprise me if on further review I have trouble keeping them on 100% CD now that we have 4 stacks of Annihilator and it is effectively on a 9s rotation.

 

Second priority is rupture (when off CD and not already ticking). I also try to optimize Berserk so I hit it at 2 stacks of deadly saber, then add the 3rd, to try to get it to tick as much as possible at 3 stacks. Filler is generally Vicious Slash while I wait for a rage builder to come off CD. In an actual fight, Vicious Throw takes priority over Vicious Slash when available.

 

One skill I am still unsure with is Ravage. Since it is free and hits like a truck, I am tempted to use it on CD. But it is also 3 seconds where I might not be able to hit Annihilate/Deadly Saber/Rupture, and it can't finish the CD on Rupture. So it feels like it should be better to save it and use it to bide time for a real rage builder to come off CD for those moments when my only other option is Assault.

 

I sorta agree with you , it seems like it's going to take a longer time to get back to top dps as a Marauder than other classes (BH for example).

As for Ravage, use it, you don't HAVE to hit Annihilate as soon as it's off CD, because you do have a couple of seconds before the stack buff goes away.

On boss fights, I hit Beserk the moment it's up, period. Is this optimal? eh... if it isn't, it's not too far off.

 

EDIT: note on Beserk, the only time I don't hit it the moment it's up, is when an upcoming mechanic will make me run around to avoid AOE's (like on Titan 6 in S&V).

Edited April 17, 2013 by Thundergulch

[Lostpenguins]

I sorta agree with you , it seems like it's going to take a longer time to get back to top dps as a Marauder than other classes (BH for example).

As for Ravage, use it, you don't HAVE to hit Annihilate as soon as it's off CD, because you do have a couple of seconds before the stack buff goes away.

On boss fights, I hit Beserk the moment it's up, period. Is this optimal? eh... if it isn't, it's not too far off.

 

EDIT: note on Beserk, the only time I don't hit it the moment it's up, is when an upcoming mechanic will make me run around to avoid AOE's (like on Titan 6 in S&V).

I always pick Annihilate over Ravage when I'm at 4 stacks of Annihilator buff. In fact, my priority, above all others, is to use Annihilate and make sure it's always on CD, even over the expense of Deadly Sabers. Ravage rarely, if ever gets used at 4 stacks of Annihilator - especially at the boss < 30%. 3 seconds of Ravage instead of using Annihilate means that my Annihilate rotation has been push 3 seconds by Ravage.

 

My priority is:

Annihilate

DS

VT

BA (If < 5 Rage)

Rupture

BA (If >= 5 Rage)

Charge (If < 5 Rage)

Ravage

Charge (If > 5 Rage)

VS

DST

Assault

 

With that priority my damage ramped up a lot. When looking at my combat parser Annihilate is my top portion of my dps, followed by DS bleeds so that's why I follow suit with the ability usage.

 

Btw, sack all your str mods and get the power mods. Crit is useless with current itemization and DR.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[Thundergulch]

Btw, sack all your str mods and get the power mods. Crit is useless with current itemization and DR.

 

I've always stacked power augments, as my dps parser was higher than with STR augments.

But that's a discussion for another day, and has already been hashed out over and over on here.

[Lostpenguins]

I've always stacked power augments, as my dps parser was higher than with STR augments.

But that's a discussion for another day, and has already been hashed out over and over on here.

Oh, sorry. I know I quoted you in my reply, but I should have said that part about power mods to the OP for advice.

[Omophorus]

I sorta agree with you , it seems like it's going to take a longer time to get back to top dps as a Marauder than other classes (BH for example).

As for Ravage, use it, you don't HAVE to hit Annihilate as soon as it's off CD, because you do have a couple of seconds before the stack buff goes away.

On boss fights, I hit Beserk the moment it's up, period. Is this optimal? eh... if it isn't, it's not too far off.

 

EDIT: note on Beserk, the only time I don't hit it the moment it's up, is when an upcoming mechanic will make me run around to avoid AOE's (like on Titan 6 in S&V).

 

No, but you want to, because maximizing the value of the Annihilator buff's CD reduction (and thus maximizing the number of Annihilates used) is one of they key parts in maximizing DPS for Annihilation. Nothing, not even Ravage, consistently matches the DPGCD in Annihilation's core priority, so wasting the Annihilator buff (by not using Annihilate to CD) is a DPS loss.

 

You never want to use Ravage any time it would cause Annihilate or Deadly Saber to sit up off CD if at all possible.

 

With the 2.0 priority system and relatively short Annihilate CD, it does become significantly harder to use Ravage approximately-to-CD simply due to the fact that there are only 3 GCDs between each use of Annihilate and a significant fraction of them need to be used on Rage generation. If anything, it makes the most sense to use Ravage immediately after Annihilate if you will be able to generate the necessary Rage to power the next Annihilate (and Deadly Saber, if applicable) in the remaining GCD before Annihilate is available again.

 

As far as Berserk usage goes, there are plenty of only-slightly-varying arguments around what is optimal. Frankly, so long as Fury isn't sitting up unused for prolonged stretches, you're basically fine. I'm strongly of the opinion that working too hard to micromanage timing winds up introducing as much inefficiency as it theoretically buys you in maximized bleed crit damage.

 

Burning Fury as soon as it becomes available (unless you have a specific rationale not to, such as a need for Bloodthirst or Predation, or an upcoming mechanic which will cause charges to go to waste) is sufficiently close to optimal that trying to get fancier doesn't really provide benefits of enough significance to merit the amount of attention required to do so.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Omophorus

[TysonBauer]

Hi all

 

i was browsing the conqueror relics and curious what everyone thought of them, esp. before i buy one for pve clearing content. Have anyone tested any of the new relics available.

 

what relics are on ppls dreamlist

[Sprgmr]

It will likely be Boundless Ages and then whichever of the 2 proc relics ends up being better (power or elemental damage proc).

[NoFishing]

Thanks all for your replies. It looks like paying closer attention to the annihilate CD mostly fixes my DPS problem. The fact it is now up every 6 freaking seconds really screwed up my rhythm with the class! A couple of notes/issues I still have, in case anyone has any further comments:

 

1. Rage management is my #1 problem now. Especially early on, when it takes both force charge and battering assault to build enough rage for annihilate and deadly saber. This was true before, but I think the timing between annihilate and the rage builders worked itself out quickly enough that I didn't mind. Now I'm constantly searching for ways to ensure I have enough rage for anni/DS, and having to use both major rage builders in the first few seconds just puts me in a bind from the start.

 

2. As a result of #1, I find I am using ravage much more frequently. Basically it is used immediately after annihilate (and DS if available) any time is off CD. I also find I'm hitting the basic assault more frequently than before, no matter how much I try to minimize it.

 

3. I've given up trying to optimize Berserk usage. The rotation just doesn't give me time to worry about it.

 

If I could make one change to the skill tree, it would be to have Frenzy build 4 rage in addition to 30-stacks of fury. I think that would make the first 30-seconds of a fight much much smoother.

 

Anyway, I'll probably end up giving Carnage a try to see how that feels now.

Edited April 19, 2013 by NoFishing

[Omophorus]

Thanks all for your replies. It looks like paying closer attention to the annihilate CD mostly fixes my DPS problem. The fact it is now up every 6 freaking seconds really screwed up my rhythm with the class! A couple of notes/issues I still have, in case anyone has any further comments:

 

1. Rage management is my #1 problem now. Especially early on, when it takes both force charge and battering assault to build enough rage for annihilate and deadly saber. This was true before, but I think the timing between annihilate and the rage builders worked itself out quickly enough that I didn't mind. Now I'm constantly searching for ways to ensure I have enough rage for anni/DS, and having to use both major rage builders in the first few seconds just puts me in a bind from the start.

 

2. As a result of #1, I find I am using ravage much more frequently. Basically it is used immediately after annihilate (and DS if available) any time is off CD. I also find I'm hitting the basic assault more frequently than before, no matter how much I try to minimize it.

 

3. I've given up trying to optimize Berserk usage. The rotation just doesn't give me time to worry about it.

 

If I could make one change to the skill tree, it would be to have Frenzy build 4 rage in addition to 30-stacks of fury. I think that would make the first 30-seconds of a fight much much smoother.

 

Anyway, I'll probably end up giving Carnage a try to see how that feels now.

 

In regards to #1 and #2... I don't think a slight uptick in Assault usage is avoidable. The increased Rage requirements of a 6s Annihilate are noteworthy, and dumping the same number of Vicious Slashes as prior to 2.0 just isn't sustainable anymore.

 

I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding what you're trying to say in regards to Rage builders, especially early. The pre-2.0 opener is basically unchanged (Charge + DS > BA > Rupture > Anni + pray for Pulverize > Ravage > Rupture (if available) > etc.). That order minimizes the DPS "dip" in the initial ramp-up, whilst minimizing wasted time with core skills off CD.

 

After the opener, and until 4 stacks of Annihilator are obtained, it's definitely advantageous to use Force Charge regularly, as it is our second best Rage generator, and distinctly better than wasting GCDs on Assault. Annoying if there's significant risk of loss of uptime, but in those situations, Carnage is probably a better bet regardless. If fight mechanics force Rage starvation or early Annihilator stack gaps, DPS is irrevocably poisoned and the fight in question simply isn't optimally completed as Annihilation.

 

As long as you can safely use 2-3 Charges to the timer during initial ramp-up (including the opener), resource issues are far less noteworthy.

[Yeochins]

First off I admit to being, at best, an average marauder.

Have I missed some critical change in rotation for anni maras?

 

2300 Strength (exotech stim)

1124 Power

85 Crit rating

288 Surge

288 Accuracy

 

Yes you have missed something, and I've highlighted it for you.

 

Annihilation is not Carnage or Rage. It doesn't get free-critical hits off of a proc. You need to maintain your critical rating at something more acceptable. Annihilate deals a good chunk of damage, but so do your bleeds. But regardless of what you use your critical rating has diminished considerably if you are a level 55.

 

Strength at 55 gives you about 5-7% critical hit chance. That is unacceptably low for an Annihilation build. Carnage and Rage can cheat and get away with low critical rating. Carnage gets 100% armor penetration + free crit on force screams + free vicious throws and Rage gets armor penetration + a passive boost to Vicious throw and free Force Screams.

 

 

As Annihilation you need critical hits to build rage to throw in Vicious slash when you're at 4 stacks of the Annihilate cooldown buff.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Yeochins

[Omophorus]

No offense, but a couple hundred points in Crit Rating isn't going to help the OP pick up 100+ DPS.

 

He asked what he was missing, and whilst gear tuning might have some impact, a large gap like that is indicative of priority issues rather than stat allocation issues.

 

Edit: For the record, ~300 Crit Rating buys you a little over 5.5% crit chance. That used to be obtained from less than 150 Crit Rating. ~300 Power buys you (including SW class buff) over 70 bonus damage. 5% crit chance is not unarguably better than ~10% more bonus damage for any spec, Annihilation or otherwise.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Omophorus

[Lostpenguins]

Edit: For the record, ~300 Crit Rating buys you a little over 5.5% crit chance. That used to be obtained from less than 150 Crit Rating. ~300 Power buys you (including SW class buff) over 70 bonus damage. 5% crit chance is not unarguably better than ~10% more bonus damage for any spec, Annihilation or otherwise.

I was doing some basic math on this and due to so many bonus crit % from bleeds and with Berserk crit is sort of a wasted stat. However, with things like Ravage and Annihilation, the crit % is actually better... I think. And since Annihilate should make up so much of our dps at 4 stacks, wouldn't it be better to start getting some crit rating over power?

[Omophorus]

I was doing some basic math on this and due to so many bonus crit % from bleeds and with Berserk crit is sort of a wasted stat. However, with things like Ravage and Annihilation, the crit % is actually better... I think. And since Annihilate should make up so much of our dps at 4 stacks, wouldn't it be better to start getting some crit rating over power?

 

I haven't sat down and done math with accurate assumptions about damage splits with the 2.0 talent trees or stat formula changes, and doing the math "properly" is a very time-consuming and involved process.

 

And even at that point, if you use something like a combat dummy and a significant number of trials to identify a "normal" split between skills, apply the damage formula appropriately to each component (to identify ideal stat splits for each major contributor), and generalize that to all content, you're going to wind up with something that's usually close to ideal, though how ideal depends on how close to a long tank & spank any given fight is.

 

Annihilate does not benefit from any unusual critical damage bonuses, and the general math does not support emphasis on Critical Rating for optimal DPS without them. The high attack multiplier inherent in the skill is good with or without crits, so big tradeoffs in Power to pick up Crit are not automatically better, as you get significant improvement in damage output even by pumping non-crit damage.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Omophorus

[shadowflit]

Does anyone know whether the damage proc relic critical hits count towards the Bloodlust rage generation? I spent some time perusing my parse, and I think it counts, but I had difficulty trying to sort out what was generating the rage.

 

I'm not sure it's necessarily worth it anyways, since I got about 11 proc crits over a 5 minute parse, but free rage is free rage.

[Thufir_Hawat]

When I look at my logs I beleive that crit hits from the proc damage relic on bleeding targets does generate rage. Note that rage built appears directly before the damage is applied in the log.