It's great to PVE with no Damage Meters

[Thyrodent]

Camp 1's main point:

 

we don't keep score at little league games because it's more important that the children just learn the general rules of the game and have fun! Keeping score just creates an exclusionary atmosphere where someone will end up with their feelings hurt, and that's not what fun is about - tee hee!

 

 

Camp 2's main point:

 

Um we're not interested in little league play, we want to play professional sports where the environment is competitive. To be competitive we keep score, we also watch statistics. I don't care about your feelings, this game is about using every possible advantage and only the best personal performance to beat the most challenging aspects of the game available.

 

 

My point:

 

You crazy kids are playing two different freakin games, even though you co-exist in the same gaming environment. On average - in your random group-ups for Black Talon and a few 4+ heroic areas no one is going to sit there and complain about you performance, because it simply dosen't matter. You will limp through the content because it takes extra effort to screw that type of content up. As the game progresses, I see more and more wipe mechanics being used.

 

None of camp 1 is on heroic content.

 

None of camp 1 will ever be on heroic or nightmare content.

 

it's ok that you want to be super casual, no one is really going to judge you for that - if they do take it up with the individuals that are behaving like that.

 

Taking away a tool that real "Operations" will find usefull because you are afraid that someone will hurt your feeling is selfish.

 

P.S. anyone who says meters are training wheels is a spy from camp 1, nobody believes that argument - even you.

[Colobulous]

Meters or logs?

 

They're one and the same for the purposes here.

 

A meter is just a log processed into a more readily scrutinized form.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Colobulous

[foolishwtf]

Have to defend BW here...of all the MMO launches I have seen (and there have been many) none were as well polished and put together day one as SWTOR, don't worry the log is coming.

 

LOTRO was the best day 1 launch I've ever seen, and had a better pre-launch.

 

 

AO.. was the worst oh AO why were you so bad at launch.

[Nendouno]

"Tommy's barely doing better dps than the tank!"

"That's because Tommy's switching to the adds. Btw, recount show's you haven't switched to the adds once. Why aren't you helping on that?"

 

Sorry but that Tommy sounds kind of bad.

 

He should be doing a lot more damage than the tank regardless.

[TradewindNQ]

Sorry but that Tommy sounds kind of bad.

 

He should be doing a lot more damage than the tank regardless.

 

Tommy sucks! Burn him!

[Bigguyonarock]

Sorry but that Tommy sounds kind of bad.

 

He should be doing a lot more damage than the tank regardless.

 

Hehe yea. Hell depending on the kind of adds, Tommy should be top just from inflated AoE damage.

 

Tommy is *********** up bad.

[Kurnea]

Meters or logs?

 

Any tool. I see both as quite helpful personally. Logs come into play for post-fight analysis, but meters can really help a raid adjust properly on anything with an enrage timer.

 

"Do we switch phases now, or heal it out a few more stacks?"

"With our current dps we won't kill the boss in time, we have to go at least two more stacks."

[Colobulous]

Tommy is the Green Ranger. Don't mess ith him, he'll summon the DragonZord on you.

 

Or we'll handwave the add damage as being reduced due to the way the adds have high DR or whatever.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Colobulous

[Kurnea]

Sorry but that Tommy sounds kind of bad.

 

He should be doing a lot more damage than the tank regardless.

 

He's doing better than the scrub who's inflating his meters by sticking to the boss and not following the mechanics. For the sake of argument, adjust his dps to being way better than the tank but much lower than the guy who never burns down adds.

[dontadow]

Wow, didnt know that damage meters were so important to folk. I use them to test builds but woudln't miss them if they disappeared, especially if people are "checking" folk based off of that. Heck, we knew a guy wouldn't holding up his snuff by watching.

[Yfelsung]

I'm a min/max'er and even I appreciate no damage meters. I like the extra challenge of figuring out how much damage I'm doing without the meters. Not everyone can do it so it's another way to set apart good players.

 

I'd put money on the fact you're probably doing a lot worse than you think you are.

 

All players think they're decent until faced with a DPS meter for the first time.

 

It's not until you realize that you suck that you can start to become good.

 

Back in real WoW raiding (40 man) I once pulled 12th as DPS... as the maintank.

 

A lot of people in that guild thought they were good.

 

We had a lengthy conversation of how much fail is required for the main tank to pull 12th of 40 on DPS. Many people were booted that day.

[Herbertllew]

High end PvE content will almost certainly require the ability to parse combat logs. Whether it happens in-game or not, logs will be parsed.

[Scerion]

You (and others) still haven't actually provided any compelling argument as to why that would be a bad thing. Which just lends more credence to the idea that these people who are opposing the idea have something to hide.

You keep saying that - although I have, several times in this thread. I'm not going to repeat myself again because you're obviously too lazy to bother looking for yourself.

I will summarize though: Morons using recount to start arguments and initiate vote kicks. There.

Yeah, I'm not talking LFR difficulty. I also find it funny you said you don't want to wave your e-peen, then do the exact opposite afterwards (/yawn btw).

The fact you write that final "yawn" means you either never got that far, or only went back after ICC was well in progress. They were two of the hardest encounters to do in the game in the appropriate gear. Few guilds ever did them. That's why I had trouble not mentioning that - because it was feckin hard with no room for error.

I also find it highly dubious that any competitive raiding guild doesn't...since most do. So how far into ICC did you go back and do Yogg+1?

We cleared Ulduar, including Yogg without the watcher achieves before TOTC launched. We were then on hard modes, back in the 226 gear. We were on the hard modes in TOTC at the launch of ICC (we were doing them in parallel, which burned out most of the raiding team - running TOTC 4 times a week, plus ICC twice a week.) We also cleared ICC hardmode before Cata.

PS. Rawr is awful, there are stronger tools developed for individual classes and a font of information in class forums that will do a better job. It's also not exactly a mystery what food/buffs and consumables would be in aid of your raid or character. So I don't see how that's relevant at all to the debate here.

I have no idea what the current flavour of the month is for WoW stat analysis. I haven't played for months - stopped after we finished FL normal, as I just couldn't be bothered with it any more.

 

What I do know though is that claiming recount is a tool to improve your performance is just flat out wrong in the same way that playing Grand Theft Auto makes you a better driver.

[Pokeytehpenguin]

LOTRO was the best day 1 launch I've ever seen, and had a better pre-launch.

 

 

AO.. was the worst oh AO why were you so bad at launch.

 

Ha, well lotro was one I skipped!

[Aidean]

I personally don't want to see any addons in the game, unless they are officially from Bioware.

Third party addons by nature are a security risk to your personal account info, like it or not.

 

Second, currently the game is fair, every player has the same interface, the same visual and equal footing. If Bioware wants to introduce an official DPS Meter, Official Threat meters then they can scale encounters expecting all players to have them.

 

I don't want to go get a third party deadly boss mods, If bioware adds one to the game so be it.

[Scerion]

they're going to have to use the Scerion method of raiding one handed while writing down their combat log with the other.

 

Is this what I've reduced you to? How sad.

[Kurnea]

I will summarize though: Morons using recount to start arguments and initiate vote kicks. There.

 

Morons will be morons regardless of the tools they use. The problem isn't what tools are available to them, but rather that they're morons. With any decent raid group I've been with(which is the vast majority), these tools have been assets, not a hindrance.

[GalacticKegger]

Any tool. I see both as quite helpful personally. Logs come into play for post-fight analysis, but meters can really help a raid adjust properly on anything with an enrage timer.

 

"Do we switch phases now, or heal it out a few more stacks?"

"With our current dps we won't kill the boss in time, we have to go at least two more stacks."

While I'm not sure how synonomous PvE and Operations are, this may be the best argument for a damage meter I have ever read. Edited December 21, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[Bigguyonarock]

I personally don't want to see any addons in the game, unless they are officially from Bioware.

Third party addons by nature are a security risk to your personal account info, like it or not.

 

Second, currently the game is fair, every player has the same interface, the same visual and equal footing. If Bioware wants to introduce an official DPS Meter, Official Threat meters then they can scale encounters expecting all players to have them.

 

I don't want to go get a third party deadly boss mods, If bioware adds one to the game so be it.

 

First, you might as well just stay off the internet.

 

Second, nobody here is talking about boss mods.

[Nendouno]

I personally don't want to see any addons in the game, unless they are officially from Bioware.

Third party addons by nature are a security risk to your personal account info, like it or not.

 

Second, currently the game is fair, every player has the same interface, the same visual and equal footing. If Bioware wants to introduce an official DPS Meter, Official Threat meters then they can scale encounters expecting all players to have them.

 

I don't want to go get a third party deadly boss mods, If bioware adds one to the game so be it.

 

Communism isn't cool bro.

 

Not cool, not cool at all. Bro.

[Scerion]

A DPS meter can also let you know who stood in the fire or not.

 

Yeah, because like, seeing the corpse on the floor is not obvious enough, right? You think, "Oo, it... it looks like someone died, but I just can't be sure!! I need to check recount to see if that really is a corpse. Thank god I have this addon!!!"

[Yfelsung]

I personally don't want to see any addons in the game, unless they are officially from Bioware.

Third party addons by nature are a security risk to your personal account info, like it or not.

 

Second, currently the game is fair, every player has the same interface, the same visual and equal footing. If Bioware wants to introduce an official DPS Meter, Official Threat meters then they can scale encounters expecting all players to have them.

 

I don't want to go get a third party deadly boss mods, If bioware adds one to the game so be it.

 

DBM isn't necessary in SWTOR due to the bosses having very noticable "tells"

 

DBM was necessary in WoW because Blizzard couldn't design a graphical cue to save their lives.

 

Blizzard didn't tune encounters around DBM, DBM fixed where Blizzard failed at encounter design.

[TradewindNQ]

You keep saying that - although I have, several times in this thread. I'm not going to repeat myself again because you're obviously too lazy to bother looking for yourself.

I will summarize though: Morons using recount to start arguments and initiate vote kicks. There.

 

The fact you write that final "yawn" means you either never got that far, or only went back after ICC was well in progress. They were two of the hardest encounters to do in the game in the appropriate gear. Few guilds ever did them. That's why I had trouble not mentioning that - because it was feckin hard with no room for error.

 

We cleared Ulduar, including Yogg without the watcher achieves before TOTC launched. We were then on hard modes, back in the 226 gear. We were on the hard modes in TOTC at the launch of ICC (we were doing them in parallel, which burned out most of the raiding team - running TOTC 4 times a week, plus ICC twice a week.) We also cleared ICC hardmode before Cata.

 

I have no idea what the current flavour of the month is for WoW stat analysis. I haven't played for months - stopped after we finished FL normal, as I just couldn't be bothered with it any more.

 

What I do know though is that claiming recount is a tool to improve your performance is just flat out wrong in the same way that playing Grand Theft Auto makes you a better driver.

 

I actually never said that recount alone was a tool to improve performance, nor that I use it to start arguments with people or flex my epeen. It is however a great way to easily see what was happening for a particular encounter. Only person to flex their e-peen thus far is you with an anecdotal recount of your glorious WoW history. Yogg+1 was not hard btw. No harder than Yogg+2/3, it was only once you were removing the ability to refresh sanity with yogg+0 that it became extremely difficult.

 

Still curious what server you were on that is apparently killing Deathwing 300 times per day...

 

Is this what I've reduced you to? How sad.

 

Could be worse, I could be making blanket generalizations and supplementing my weak argument with fabricated bs.

Edited December 21, 2011 by TradewindNQ

[Bigguyonarock]

DBM isn't necessary in SWTOR due to the bosses having very noticable "tells"

 

DBM was necessary in WoW because Blizzard couldn't design a graphical cue to save their lives.

 

Blizzard didn't tune encounters around DBM, DBM fixed where Blizzard failed at encounter design.

 

And now that Blizzard finally designed appropriate ques, DBM is now almost useless.

 

I say almost because I still liked the boss health frames, opposed to the standard UI ones.

 

That only took what... 3-4 years?

Edited December 21, 2011 by Bigguyonarock

[Yfelsung]

Yeah, because like, seeing the corpse on the floor is not obvious enough, right? You think, "Oo, it... it looks like someone died, but I just can't be sure!! I need to check recount to see if that really is a corpse. Thank god I have this addon!!!"

 

The point flies majestically over your head, glistening in the sunlight as it soars beyond your reach of comprehension. Looking to the ground, the earth-scorned point of the post caws defiantly as it continues to climb out of your reach.