2.0 Guide: Guardian DPS for PvE Raiding

[uriaces]

From the game as a whole or the class?

 

From the game

[Manweth]

From the game

 

Man, best of luck to you friend.

 

There ggoes one high parser off as well.

 

This game has been losing all of its high parsers lately and some class reps...

[idnewton]

Man, best of luck to you friend.

 

There ggoes one high parser off as well.

 

This game has been losing all of its high parsers lately and some class reps...

 

It is a shame.

 

Not to say uriaces PvPed per se, but a lot of the PvP-related class reps have left for... obvious reasons.

 

Me, I don't have any intentions of leaving or even unsubbing. BW would have to pull something mighty terrible to get that to happen. However, I can certainly see if someone played this game only for PvP, getting those FAQ answers would be a complete slap in the face.

 

I'm not saying I agree with people who say "I unsubbed!" on the forums (referring to angry PvPers, not uriaces), but I think this time I can understand it. People who unsub because they're giving us another Double XP weekend? Yeah, sorry, they're dumb. Somehow I don't think I can hold it against people who unsub after getting those FAQ answers though. You can't really make the argument that BW didn't fail somewhere along the line. They did make a pretty big mistake with that thread, and they're going to need to do something significant to get the PvPers back, if they even care anymore.

 

Not trying to be a doom-and-gloomer, just stating facts as they are.

 

 

That said, I do have a guildmate who really cranks Vengeance on his Juggernaut. I don't think I'd consider him a big parser, but he definitely knows what's up.

 

All in all, the rotation isn't very difficult anyways.

Edited April 6, 2014 by idnewton

[GrandLordMenace]

It is a shame.

 

All in all, the rotation isn't very difficult anyways.

 

That's where I think you're wrong, respectfully of course. The spec in it's current incarnation requires a lot of foresight into resource management, especially if you keep Blade Storm on CD. To this day I've never seen a "Perfect" Vigilance parse, one that has the EXACT same amount of Blade Storms and OVerhead Slashes without delaying either of them, even the most perfect parses always have that one delay, but I digress.

 

It's no combat sent, but it's definitely more than meets the eye.

[idnewton]

That's where I think you're wrong, respectfully of course. The spec in it's current incarnation requires a lot of foresight into resource management, especially if you keep Blade Storm on CD. To this day I've never seen a "Perfect" Vigilance parse, one that has the EXACT same amount of Blade Storms and OVerhead Slashes without delaying either of them, even the most perfect parses always have that one delay, but I digress.

 

It's no combat sent, but it's definitely more than meets the eye.

 

Agreed. Easy... as a relative term. Combat sent as you said will be a lot harder. If I could sum Vigilance/Vengeance up, I would say this:

 

It is easy to learn and hard to master, but the difference between mastering it and not is very slim.

[GrandLordMenace]

Agreed. Easy... as a relative term. Combat sent as you said will be a lot harder. If I could sum Vigilance/Vengeance up, I would say this:

 

It is easy to learn and hard to master, but the difference between mastering it and not is very slim.

 

I can agree with that, the easy to grasp rotation isn't too far behind the more refined one, but the more refined one is definitely a noticeable improvement

[Manweth]

I can agree with that, the easy to grasp rotation isn't too far behind the more refined one, but the more refined one is definitely a noticeable improvement

 

The Mastered Version vs. Non-Mastered Version doesn't differ a lot on dummy.

 

But in combat with real bosses, knowing what to do when to do where to do makes difference between a NiM DPS and trash DPS.

 

As for PvP ppl taking off, it's not exacctly true.

 

Community leaders like Nibbon, for example, left far as back as that "heal to full" debacle.

 

Vanguards vanished from the face off the map.

 

Almost all shadow proponents took off after buffs were shown to be not enough.

 

Only now certain PvPers are feeling the after effects.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Manweth

[GrandLordMenace]

The Mastered Version vs. Non-Mastered Version doesn't differ a lot on dummy.

 

But in combat with real bosses, knowing what to do when to do where to do makes difference between a NiM DPS and trash DPS.

 

As for PvP ppl taking off, it's not exacctly true.

 

Community leaders like Nibbon, for example, left far as back as that "heal to full" debacle.

 

Vanguards vanished from the face off the map.

 

Almost all shadow proponents took off after buffs were shown to be not enough.

 

Only now certain PvPers are feeling the after effects.

 

I think the main reason is the non mastered version has a FAR more aggressive execute, so if you get lucky dispatch crits it's relatively even with the Mastered version, but personally the mastered version just tends to have far more stable DPS and keening procs.

[vadess]

Ok, so I've got some free time and can't play the game for a couple weeks, so I decided to do some more thinking about our rotation, and since no one has really spelled it out in the 3 blocks we see, I'll go ahead and post it here for anyone to use/reference. The rotation after the opener breaks down into 3 blocks based around PB's cooldown of 12 seconds. The pattern repeats every 3 times to give us a 36 second "rotation" based on where PB, OS, and BS will fit within each 12 second block (which is 8 GCDs). The beginning of each of our blocks will begin with shatter after our opener. Here's the opener block, which is the only block with more than 8 GCDs:

 

Throw>Leap>PB>MS>OS>BS>MS>filler

 

This opener assumes you use enrage after PB and leads us into a block that will most likely not occur again unless you have downtime in a raid situation, or mess up your placement of MS within the filler windows we'll see in a few minutes.

 

So from the opener, using everything on cooldown, we will see this next block (henceforth referred to as the transition block):

 

PB>OS>BS>filler>filler>filler>filler>OS

 

In this block, you can put MS in one of 3 places, the first two filler GCDs, the middle two, or the last two. This block should happen once per engagement that has no downtime (Dummies, Nefra, Thrasher, etc). On fights with lots of transitions, get used to this block since it sets up the core, 3 block rotation, which comes about when we have to make our first (and only, in 1-engagement-fights) decision about ability priority. The transition block allows us to use OS on cooldown, but PB's and BS's cooldowns will come off at the same time. The decision here is simple: keep your biggest dot going. Even if it wasn't an easy decision, this is the ONLY decision to be made, it sets up our rotation nicely and delaying BS by 1 GCD over a 5 minute fight isn't going to affect our dps much. This brings us to the core 3 blocks.

 

Block 1

PB>BS>filler>filler>filler>OS>filler>BS

 

Block 2

PB>filler>filler>OS>filler>BS>filler>filler>

 

Block 3

PB>OS>filler>BS>filler>filler>filler>OS

 

Filler to be used are Sunder, Throw, Dispatch, Blade Sweep, Force Push, Slash. It's up to you to choose the best for each gcd, based on your resource needs, cooldowns, etc. You will have a minimum of four gcds per block (5 in block 2), two of which are taken up by MS. This leaves two (or three) GCD's to build enough rage for the next sequence. Use your fillers wisely.

 

Immediately we can see a small pattern within our blocks because of our initial decision, that is, we always see OS>something>BS, whether it's filler or PB fitting in between. We can also plainly see the spots where we can fit in MS in each block. In block 1, it is going to be used in either the first or second GCD after the initial OS. In block 2, it will go after PB or BS. In block 3, it will be used in either the first or second GCD after BS. We can even further say for block 2, there is only one place MS can go, based on the number of Zen stacks you have (it will alternate positions each time you get to block 2). The easiest way to know which block you're in is to check what you will use after PB. If it's BS, you're in block 1, if it's not BS or OS, you're in block 2, and if it's OS, you're in block 3.

 

Here's another visual representation that may be helpful (also made one for the juggernaut brethren)

Vengeance: http://imgur.com/EyCtTua

Vigilance: http://imgur.com/7bzqDrp

 

These 3 blocks repeat ad nauseum in prolonged situations. If you know you're about to enter into a burst phase or a transition, guess what Matt's burst phase rotation looks like? Our transition block. This means you can save your big hitters, crush that burst phase, and flow right back into our 3 block system seamlessly.

 

This is by no means "the rotation" that everyone should use 100% of the time you're fighting in operations, but I thought it may help to have a visualization of the 36 second window that we often find ourselves in and refer to when posting on the forums. And if nothing else, you can set yourself up to use the transition block I outlined above to get yourself into a familiar groove that will put out max dps so you can focus on other things like raid mechanics and your leader. That's all for now, I hope this helps.

 

 

EDIT: OPTIMAL MASTER STRIKE PLACEMENT

So I did a little bit more work on the little spreadsheet blocks I've got here in an effort to try and simplify the placement of MS within the blocks. It seems to me that the easiest way to remember it, is to just use it after BS. You can use it one GCD after BS, but it doesn't really matter. This will carry you through each block consistently except for every other time we get to block 2. Because of the way we're generating stacks of Zen Strike, every other block 2 has a mandatory two uses of MS to not waste procs. On the other side of this, it turns out that every 8th use of BS will NOT have a MS after it (ignore that last bit if you don't understand it immediately, it's just extra info).

 

Here's an illustration from the Jugg terms. Alt means alternative spot for Ravage in that block. Italicized ability is the reset for Ravage via second stack of Rampage. I didn't feel like translating all of this to Guardian language when I wrote it out. Shouldn't be hard to figure out if you're not fluent in both. Use the OP for a glossary if you need to.

http://imgur.com/tjb3iLP

 

TL;DR easy mode for this concept is use MS after every BS unless PB's cooldown comes up immediately after you use BS. In this case, use MS after PB immediately. Thought process should be, "Using Blade Storm, is Plasma Brand about to come off cd?" If yes, Plasma Brand. If no, Master Strike.

 

Just getting my juggernaut back into progression raiding... I will parse this and see what happens

[GrandLordMenace]

Just getting my juggernaut back into progression raiding... I will parse this and see what happens

 

I've been having most of my success now from just focusing on a loose but taxing priority of making sure all 3 dots are on CD and having Scream have the same usages as Impale or very close, IE within 1 usage. It's been working for me, even if it's far more harder than anything else you can do and pretty much bans usage of vicious slash besides Destroyer procs.

[vadess]

I've been having most of my success now from just focusing on a loose but taxing priority of making sure all 3 dots are on CD and having Scream have the same usages as Impale or very close, IE within 1 usage. It's been working for me, even if it's far more harder than anything else you can do and pretty much bans usage of vicious slash besides Destroyer procs.

 

I thought that's what I was doing... Hmmm... I'll have to compare your parses with mine then.

[drummerinthesun]

I thought that's what I was doing... Hmmm... I'll have to compare your parses with mine then.

 

That's essentially what my blocks do. Every bleed is used on cooldown, and then I've suggested the best spots to use Ravage and Rage builders. The only thinking you have to do is when to use Vicious Throw. Obviously it's an idealized model, but there's insurance for burst phases and downtime that will put you right back into the flow of the 3 blocks. There's no reason it can't be used verbatim. I'm still not back in game due to RL stuff, but I got on for a while one day and had success using it.

[vadess]

That's essentially what my blocks do. Every bleed is used on cooldown, and then I've suggested the best spots to use Ravage and Rage builders. The only thinking you have to do is when to use Vicious Throw. Obviously it's an idealized model, but there's insurance for burst phases and downtime that will put you right back into the flow of the 3 blocks. There's no reason it can't be used verbatim. I'm still not back in game due to RL stuff, but I got on for a while one day and had success using it.

 

 

Well I tried it with the blocks. I think it's a much smoother rotation, but will have to experiment with my juggernaut more.

[GrandLordMenace]

First parse in a long while, botched my execute pretty bad but here it is: http://www.torparse.com/a/655087/1/0/Overview

 

I'm running some 275 crit rating, my crits tend to be a bit more inflated due to the amount of crit I run.

Edited April 24, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[vadess]

Menance I'm comparing what you're doing with what I'm doing and I'm at a loss... I manage to get 3400... I wonder how I'm missing the 200DPS. http://www.torparse.com/a/656723

 

 

Time for some due diligence!!! Or perhaps it's because I need more optimized enhancements (i.e. Initiative and Adept).

[GrandLordMenace]

Are you 78 or 72 hilted?

 

Your impale isn't 100 percent on CD, I'll make a video tonight but the hardest part about vig in 2.0 is keeping BOTH impale and FS fully on CD, meaning they need to have the same amount of usages AND when you divide time by usages you should get about 9-9.3.

 

Your Shatter is being used once every 13 seconds. That's delayed.

 

If you tighten everything up, your Ravage should be about 31 percent of your damage.

 

Here's a 3740 where I had better luck.

Edited April 25, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[GrandLordMenace]

http://www.torparse.com/a/610007/5/0/Damage+Dealt

 

This is the absolute king of Vigilance parses. Everything I'm doing now is a pale imitation of him.

 

He's doing 3800 WITHOUT adrenals and he still needs some 78s, like an implant and ear. It's insanity.

[vadess]

Are you 78 or 72 hilted?

 

Your impale isn't 100 percent on CD, I'll make a video tonight but the hardest part about vig in 2.0 is keeping BOTH impale and FS fully on CD, meaning they need to have the same amount of usages AND when you divide time by usages you should get about 9-9.3.

 

Your Shatter is being used once every 13 seconds. That's delayed.

 

If you tighten everything up, your Ravage should be about 31 percent of your damage.

 

Here's a 3740 where I had better luck.

 

My MH is full 78. Actually, I'll post my AMR Gear Profile- Noxturna's Gear

[vadess]

Are you 78 or 72 hilted?

 

Your impale isn't 100 percent on CD, I'll make a video tonight but the hardest part about vig in 2.0 is keeping BOTH impale and FS fully on CD, meaning they need to have the same amount of usages AND when you divide time by usages you should get about 9-9.3.

 

Your Shatter is being used once every 13 seconds. That's delayed.

 

If you tighten everything up, your Ravage should be about 31 percent of your damage.

 

Here's a 3740 where I had better luck.

 

Also, you didn't link your parse lol

[GrandLordMenace]

http://www.torparse.com/a/638248/2/0/Overview

 

3740

[vadess]

http://www.torparse.com/a/638248/2/0/Overview

 

3740

 

Thank you. I did manage to implement not delaying shatter, for example yesterday, as well keeping force scream and impale always on cool down, but still DPS was at 3400. I fell like I should be at 3500 our more... I guess practice is the key.

[GrandLordMenace]

Thank you. I did manage to implement not delaying shatter, for example yesterday, as well keeping force scream and impale always on cool down, but still DPS was at 3400. I fell like I should be at 3500 our more... I guess practice is the key.

 

Link it, want to analyze.

[GrandLordMenace]

 

Took a stab at recording a parse. Did about 3600 due to lag on my part and RNG, made 1 mistake in delaying a dot but besides that it will do. You can pretty much see what I'm doing.

[vadess]

3505.36 on 1.5million dummy- http://www.torparse.com/a/668502/time/1399656984/1399657411/0/Overview

 

3504.66 on 1.0million dummy- http://www.torparse.com/a/668502/time/1399655449/1399655733/0/Overview

 

 

I think I'm catching on. I know I delayed my shatter a couple of times, but that was more for rage building purposes.

[GrandLordMenace]

3505.36 on 1.5million dummy- http://www.torparse.com/a/668502/time/1399656984/1399657411/0/Overview

 

3504.66 on 1.0million dummy- http://www.torparse.com/a/668502/time/1399655449/1399655733/0/Overview

 

 

I think I'm catching on. I know I delayed my shatter a couple of times, but that was more for rage building purposes.

 

Yeah the thing that's hard about vig/veng is if you delay a single dot, you end up with something like this:

 

Delay a plasma brand

 

about 12-24 seconds later plasma brand and overhead slash come up at the exact same time, and blade storm comes up right after.