New PVP patch notes are completely bogus

[Aelaias]

Bolster if done right will be a vast improvement over the system we have since launch, which is the same idiotic setup they have in Warhammer Online.

[Yelloweyedemon]

The fact that they are rewarding people who take no time to get their gear, have no idea how to play or gear their class, and then queue for warzones expecting to get carried by those of us who do is just ridiculous to me

 

congratulations you have no idea how to play the game so you get EXTRA bolster in warzone

 

 

in my opinion over the last year bioware has been focusing on the wrong group of people. Trying to make the game easier for those players and making it more difficult for us to use the knowledge we have of the game to be better. If i spend the time farming money, and mods and armorings or augments I get less of a bolster in a warzone.

 

Focus on encouraging players to learn how to improve their own character... not sit in their own ignorance and not have any motivation to improve.

 

The players who are bad are the temporary ones. The ones who are good are the loyal ones who will subscribe to bioware, giving them the money to maintain the game.

 

Keep nerfing us and we're all gonna leave when the next mmo comes along. Because for the last couple of years thats all we've been doing looking for a game that pits skill against skill, not caters to all the baddies who flock to this kind of game hoping to be carried, or that it will get easier and easier until they can play it like lego batman or little big planet. (great games, but not what im looking for when i log into an mmo)

 

What's this all about? I hate all those n00bs that come in 50 WZ's in 14k as much as you do, but the bolster system is just to bring the low lvl's on par with the higher ones. Also any serious pvp'er will just lvl up from 50 to 55 fast, and play 55 pvp.

[BoushhDC]

Anthraxal, I think you and I mostly understand each other with the exception of one point, albeit not very consequential but since you asked:

 

You realize it doesn't make sense, right? If the men behind the changes were all PvE-exclusive players, what was their business trying to change PvP?

 

The short answer is: it was an "unintended consequence." Basically, the players that complained (again, not *all* but a significant enough amount of them that spurred BW to action) that were PvE'ing didn't like that other players were showing up with their PvP gear (or gear that had been modded with armoring/barrels/crystals, mods, & enhancements originally stripped out of PvP gear) and being almost as effective in the Flash Points and Operations as those that had the equivalent tier of PvE gear. Those that were complaining, largely didn't PvP at all, or they would have/could have done the same thing themselves: improved their stats (min/maxing) with mods taken from gear they had obtained in PvP, or temporarily completed a tier set by using a pvp item (maybe a relic, or pants, whatever) until they got the PvE version to properly complete the set.

 

Given your inclination you'd be right to wonder, as most of us who like PvP did, "what do they care?" And I agree that it may make no sense from your and my point of view. After all, the stronger a team's members are geared, the greater likelihood of success in the Operation and getting the PvE gear, rewards and achievements everyone seeks. And yes, they could have just as easily done the same thing, and some did, that crossed over and did both kinds of content... but here is the distinction between pure PvE'ers and those that PvP at all and the foundation for the contentious and clear differences between them. There are some people that HATE PvP with a passion. The fact that a player *could* take a piece of armor that they'd obtained in PvP (or use the mods from it) to make their gear better and therefore themselves more effective along the way of completing their PvE sets was tantamount to "forcing" them to PvP in order to be competitive, in their minds... an idea so totally abhorent to them that they absolutely howled about it. And, no, I'm not making this up. It was said at the time, and there are still people here and in other MMOs that will voice the same view today: If you make them feel forced to PvP (and again, not literally, but make something atainable by taking a PvP route) they they will absolutely lose their minds about it and hell hath no fury like a pure PvE'er scorned, damn the unintended consequences. They didn't even care about the indirect benefit to them through having a strong team. I think it's a perverse, self-defeating kind of hubris and selfishness, but that's more for a psychoanalyst to determine.

 

*Bear in mind, there are the pure PvP'ers who could have cared less about doing Ops or getting those rewards or gear etc., but they were nonetheless just as swept up in the changes that were inflicted on PvP as everybody else was. I'm sure you saw Ifolad's post above, anecdotally recounting the reaction of just such players.

 

This was all a result of BioWare's response to the outcry of the vociferous number of pure PvE'ers to make it unviable to use PvP gear in Ops; to be effective in Ops you have to have PvE gear, end of story. BW's approach to this was to more than double down on Expertise, thereby greatening the gap between PvE and PvP gear.

 

Again, I'm not necessarily against the 2.0 changes from a PvP perspective. However, they are still determined to keep PvP gear (and by extension, those that mainly acquired their gear through PvP) out of PvE but have made the opposite viable. I tend to agree with you on your point... why not have no distinctions in kinds of gear and thereby allow everyone to experience the content they wish? Hard core PvP'ers don't care about Expertise. Sure, just like PvE'ers, they would like their work to result in better looking and better performing armor & weapons to show for their efforts, but why not eliminate Expertise altogether and make equivalent PvE & PvP tiers of gear... well, equal, stat wise? If BioWare doesn't, that's where I have the problem: then they are effectively punishing and excluding those that primarily PvP from other content, and only them. That's called discrimination.

 

I say, keep bolster for levellers, but dump expertise altogether and put tiers of PvE & PvP gear on exactly equal footing. Problem solved... except, propose such a thing in General and listen as the howling begins all over again....

[KhalDrogoe]

Just a thought about this part :

 

 

 

It's just the contrary : they will not be a dead weight like now, and will be able to contribute instead of getting carried.

 

The only way that one can contribute, is to use the PvP consumables, and go into the wz's with a stim. These coupled with gear is what makes PvP players from having <100k damage per wz to >300k damage per wz. But bad players don't want to use consumables in wz's so we'll always be stuck with those bads.

[Kovaos]

Geez get over it. I seriously don't believe any of that crap about learning your class when playing someone with better gear. They don't beat your *** because they have better gear. They beat your *** because they're better than you.

[ArchangelLBC]

^^ This.

 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

I see people all the time showing up in WZs w/ their PvE gear on. There is nothing barring them from experiencing the PvP content even though they aren't geared for it. It currently effects the success of the team as a whole, but that's just the way it is at the moment. Conversely, however anyone without certain gear types will not be allowed to participate in PvE Operations or HMs. For example, during the Gree event, in General chat on Ilum, players were routinely looking for more to join their operations that "Must Be Geared" to the point of often specifying full Dread Guard and on one occasion even had to have gotten "*every* datacron" in the game (no joke) and that was for not only for the HM Operation, but the regular as well as even the Ilum bosses in the caves. So, if you didn't have the top gear, they wouldn't invite you.

 

So, since with 2.0 people will be able to show up in their green gear that's 10 levels below them and be just as effective stat-wise as someone in full, augmented EWH, then why not bolster PvE also? You can still have your gear grind from drops and chests, etc, but why not bolster players that primarily PvP? After all, those that show up in the WZs with their PvE gear chose to use their game time to acquire their gear and likewise, others have spent their time pursuing their PvP gear... which has changed many more times ranging from tiers, the valor grind, to the RNG of gear from bags, to straight purchasing w/ different types of commendations used as currency and now 2.0 is about upon us with more changes. With each of the changes and new tiers, it has required a substantial time commitment to acquire each new set and adapt to changes (to gear and nerfs to abilities/damage, but the latter is a whole different story).

 

Personally, all the time I was grinding PvP gear, I *was not* able to spend as much time grinding PvE gear. That's called an "opportunity cost." The PvE'ers have never been barred from participating in PvP although arguably they suffered a disadvantage (which was often distributed to the team) but now they will be just as effective from a stat perspective as a primary PvP'er but with a fraction of the time and effort... *and* they already have their top end PvE gear. Effectively, they can experience ALL the game's content without being barred by other players for gear reasons. That's fine if that's what you all want, but where is the quid pro quo? How is a PvP'er who has dedicated more of their finite time to pursuing the top tier of gear going to be likewise enabled to experience all the game has to offer with the equivalent amount of time, effort and credits invested that you will soon be affording the primary PvE'ers?

 

Long time PvP'ers such as myself have had to accept and adapt to all the vast changes as they've come along since launch, but where is the even handedness? I and I'm sure others would also like to experience other content (and often have: I've done every FP and Op in the game, including HMs & NmMs) but not enough to have ground out every piece of the top tier of gear which is required to experience all the rest the game has to offer. I'm not trying to say don't make the changes to enable more people to experience content in a more enjoyable, less frustrating way; I'm just saying, if you insist on doing it, do it for EVERYONE.

 

I'm getting so sick of seeing this crap.

 

Listen idiotic elistists aside, (LOL @ needing complete min/max PVE gear with datacrons for Xeno of all things), PVP bolster is NOT gonna let you do anything but get steam rolled in ranked warzones, which is top tier PVP content. Asking for anything else is just idiotic.

 

And I've seen PLENTY of people bring undergeared toons to things like HM KP/EV and SM EC/TFB and stuff like that which is basically entry level PVE content (slightly harder than groupfinder). Hell tonight I was in a group that 7 manned HM KP and one of them was a completely recruit geared commando.

 

So the need for a PVE bolster is just silly.

 

Now personally I don't like the PVE geared heroes in warzones. Can't stand it, and I'm glad they'll be less of an affliction in warzones and not a total waste of a spot. In PVE, your partisan gear will be just fine for going into HM flashpoints, and that's about it, and that's about all it should be.

 

Both sides of the game can take their top gear and be just good enough for entry level on the other side of the game. Seems perfectly fine to me. Anyone saying anything else is being alarmist for no good reason.

[BoushhDC]

I'm getting so sick of seeing this crap....

 

And what crap is that? The expectation that if BioWare insists on a policy of "it should be about skill, not gear" that it should be administered evenhandedly? Oh yes, how unreasonable of us to expect a fair and balanced approach. heh.

 

 

So the need for a PVE bolster is just silly. .

 

That particular post was part of an ongoing discussion, in which I was making a point regarding BW's uneven solution, so I'll pull my actual suggestion from a later post.

 

I say, keep bolster for levellers, but dump expertise altogether and put [equivalent] tiers of PvE & PvP gear on exactly equal footing.....

 

Since the hardcore PvP'ers claim that they don't like expertise any more than PvE oriented players and casuals -- as indicated by the varying cries of "quit using your gear as a crutch" followed by "we'll dominate you anyway without it"... etc -- why not put everyone's proclamations to the ultimate test and eliminate Expertise altogether?

 

And if you accept their idea that it should be about skill over gear, you have to apply that concept universally, or else you're just favoring one type of player (or content type) over another, which defeats the purpose, alienates sections of your player base, and is inherently unfair from the Gamemakers who are supposed to be above it all, not taking sides. This is their current course.

[Wainamoinen]

the Gamemakers who are supposed to be above it all, not taking sides.

 

Your whole premise is flawed from beginning to end. There are no sides in this argument. So there is no unfairness.

 

PvP is humans against other humans, so you need both parties to have a similar performance level to have an interesting contest and keep them participating.

 

PvE is humans against computer AIs, they are different classes of entity and there's no need to keep computer AIs happy and playing, we can force them to. In fact, the AIs need to be massively overpowered in their abilities to make up for the fact that they have all the intellect of an ant in applying them against a team of human beings.

 

You've locked yourself in a false worldview where you demand that two different situations must have the same system, or that's "unfair" to people who play one or another (and never mind that for many people they're playing both). For it to be unfair they would have to be comparable, they're not.

 

This is a ridiculous demand and will get nowhere. So either realise it's ridiculous and get over it, or clutch your delusion tight and remain angry about a non-existent unfairness. The former might allow you to be happier, the latter will preserve your ego, it's up to you.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[BoushhDC]

Your whole premise is flawed from beginning to end ...you need both parties to have a similar performance level to have an interesting contest and keep them participating.

 

I quit reading after this since my suggestion was to eliminate the Expertise stat, which would satisfy your assertion that "both parties need to have a similar performance level." Ergo, you're argument is not only flawed, but you fail to recognize the crux of the argument.

 

... Moving on...

Edited April 8, 2013 by BoushhDC

[Wainamoinen]

Option 2 it is then.

[danielearley]

I like the bolster, I would like to know I'm beating someone because I'm better than them, not because my gear is better!

[Tyrias]

I quit reading after this since my suggestion was to eliminate the Expertise stat, which would satisfy your assertion that "both parties need to have a similar performance level." Ergo, you're argument is not only flawed, but you fail to recognize the crux of the argument.

 

... Moving on...

 

While the theory of "Equal gear" sounds great, and it would be lovely to gear up with whichever avenue you chose and have to option to do all the content when you are geared up, I'd think that I'd be dead against it, in practice.

 

At the moment, people PvP because they kind of want to PvP, not for gear. If people are able to get top end PvE gear through what is effectively soloing (solo queuing anyway), it'll only lead to further degredation of the average skill or enjoyability of most unranked PvP matches. In my opinion, of course.

[BoushhDC]

Option 2 it is then.

 

What are you afraid of? That you can't PvP effectively w/o at least *some* Expertise and therefore you feel threatened by my suggestion (not "demand" as you so obtusely claim) that it be eliminated? If your main is a scoundrel (as indicated by your sig) then it must be a lack of skill issue since it's not a class problem. lol.

[BoushhDC]

... If people are able to get top end PvE gear through what is effectively soloing (solo queuing anyway)...

 

Isn't this the same concept of the group finder tool that we have in game for PvE content or is that what you are referring to? If so, it's fundamentally no different from the PvP group finder where one can solo-que, or with up to 3 of your friends (for unranked). And yes, a difference is being able to specify instances, but that's a separate topic. hehe.

 

...it'll only lead to further degredation of the average skill or enjoyability of most unranked PvP matches. In my opinion, of course.

 

Just for clarification, what will? Do you mean people going into PvP with PvE gear? They do that currently anyway and there won't be any gear checker component of the PvP group finder added in 2.0 as I understand it to prevent that in the future, but if I've missed what you mean, please clarify a little more.

[Dasgruberg]

I like the bolster, I would like to know I'm beating someone because I'm better than them, not because my gear is better!

 

Hear hear ! It works for Gw2. I think its a step in the right direction

 

Anyone commenting that keeping their gear advantage is a good thing for the game; I cant belive you dont see how whiney you come off.

[Wainamoinen]

What are you afraid of? That you can't PvP effectively w/o at least *some* Expertise and therefore you feel threatened by my suggestion (not "demand" as you so obtusely claim) that it be eliminated? If your main is a scoundrel (as indicated by your sig) then it must be a lack of skill issue since it's not a class problem. lol.

 

Wrong. I'm arguing that people need to be roughly equal in gear in PvP. The way they're using Expertise and Bolster in 2.0 is a means to achieve that.

 

PvE is a different scenario because you don't have to match the two competing parties' abilities, and is not comparable to PvP.

 

I hope they institute clue-vendors on fleet in 2.0. There are so many who could benefit enormously.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Kovaos]

I hope they institute clue-vendors on fleet in 2.0. There are so many who could benefit enormously.

 

My first laugh of the day! WZs are going to be more competitive now and that scares the players that aren't very good and rely on better gear.

[BoushhDC]

Hear hear ! It works for Gw2. I think its a step in the right direction

 

Anyone commenting that keeping their gear advantage is a good thing for the game; I cant belive you dont see how whiney you come off.

 

Actually, GW2 has two different approaches to PvP. In Structured PvP (SPvP), to which I think you might be referring, as soon as you enter a kind of staging area, you are immediately levelled to cap, given access to ALL your your class abilities which you may spec any way you want and change as many times as you want, and additionally get access to all the top gear to modify as you like. It's like being handed the keys to an entire shopping mall to pick out whatever you want (all by class, of course) and modify everything (sort of like augments but there is a much larger variety that also has set bonuses attached to them) so the amount of control you have over your character is vast. Then you go into the SPvP matches which are instances like War Zones which are varied and you get que'd for one right after another w/o a choice of map, until you choose to bail out, breathlessly, maybe to change around your gear and spec a bit before going back in. It's the purest form of skill oriented pvp I've ever seen in an MMO.

 

BUT

 

SWTOR is trying to do a kind of hybrid of that concept by doing all their tweaks on their side of things, rather than you having control over your character. What I mean by that is, that instead of giving you access to all your skills and abilities all at once (which in the normal part of the GW2, you have to level and unlock, and purchase, and open with special points you acquire by doing certain content in the world, similar to most MMOs), instead, your stats will be "bolstered" but you won't have access to all your skills. This seems a good bit fiddly and arbitrary, having none of the visceral feel of GW2's system. GW2's system of matching up your skill also entails how you manage your gear, what set bonuses you choose and what choices you make for your skill tree, etc. Also, you can change any of it as many times as you want with no cost. SWTOR wants to have more control over how it works, rather than giving you the choice to "pick what you want, whatever you want, and have at it." They're still going to cling to their Expertise system and then just tinker with their whole contraption on the programming side. Yay, fun. :/

[Anishor]

So what stats does bolster affect?

[Maraxuss]

I'm getting so sick of seeing this crap.

 

Listen idiotic elistists aside, (LOL @ needing complete min/max PVE gear with datacrons for Xeno of all things), PVP bolster is NOT gonna let you do anything but get steam rolled in ranked warzones, which is top tier PVP content. Asking for anything else is just idiotic.

 

And I've seen PLENTY of people bring undergeared toons to things like HM KP/EV and SM EC/TFB and stuff like that which is basically entry level PVE content (slightly harder than groupfinder). Hell tonight I was in a group that 7 manned HM KP and one of them was a completely recruit geared commando.

 

So the need for a PVE bolster is just silly.

 

Now personally I don't like the PVE geared heroes in warzones. Can't stand it, and I'm glad they'll be less of an affliction in warzones and not a total waste of a spot. In PVE, your partisan gear will be just fine for going into HM flashpoints, and that's about it, and that's about all it should be.

 

Both sides of the game can take their top gear and be just good enough for entry level on the other side of the game. Seems perfectly fine to me. Anyone saying anything else is being alarmist for no good reason.

 

Your joking right? Is this your first MMO? Usually when raids are put together chat is spammed with "KNOW FIGHTS..... BE GEARED" or ****. After 2.0 it will be KNOW FIGHTS....BE GEARED....LINK ACHIEVEMENT.

I fail to see how this is not elitist.

And no i'm not talking about guilds runs, that don't care to carry thier baddies, sure you might find some of that, that would equate to a guild premade carring a baddie. I'm talking about pug raid vs pug warzone.

[islander]

My first laugh of the day! WZs are going to be more competitive now and that scares the players that aren't very good and rely on better gear.

 

I fully expect a PvE bolster for raids coming soon...so I can use my PvP gear and be just as well geared as the PvE raiders who do it nightly.

 

Because we wouldn't want normal PvE raiders to hide behind their gear advantage, amirite?

Edited April 8, 2013 by islander

[Anishor]

I fully expect a PvE bolster for raids coming soon...so I can use my PvP gear and be just as well geared as the PvE raiders who do it nightly.

 

Because we wouldn't want normal PvE raiders to hide behind their gear advantage, amirite?

 

Nah, it's different. In PvE the 'opposition' is controlled by the devs, the stat lvl of the opposition is determined by the mode you select. This gives devs a definite balancing point.

 

Now for PVP obviously players are hte opposition, and when you have players fighting each other you want skill to outweigh gear.

[Maraxuss]

I fully expect a PvE bolster for raids coming soon...so I can use my PvP gear and be just as well geared as the PvE raiders who do it nightly.

 

Because we wouldn't want normal PvE raiders to hide behind their gear advantage, amirite?

 

They will all tell you they need the gear because its a gating mechanic, toward new content. The Truth is all they want is the chance to have thier character aquire the Super "Lightsaber of Pwn", "Blaster of Unloaded Doom", "Armor of Pulsing Force". Armegeddon and Betrayer of Humanity (wow references) Type things that drop from raids so they can appear bad "buttes" to people. If it was only about new seeing story content, all they would need it to figure out the AI fight, then run it using the gear the already have. Don't believe it. There is a reason raiders run raids week after week, and get burned out, yet still do it, and its not because they want to see the story for the 20th time.. Its called the new "Shiny" that makes them look pimp and elite, and gives them better stats than anyone else.

 

.....something they obviosely do not want PvPers to have.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Maraxuss

[BoushhDC]

Wrong. I'm arguing that people need to be roughly equal in gear in PvP. The way they're using Expertise and Bolster in 2.0 is a means to achieve that.

 

PvE is a different scenario because you don't have to match the two competing parties' abilities, and is not comparable to PvP.

 

I hope they institute clue-vendors on fleet in 2.0. There are so many who could benefit enormously.

 

Beg your pardon, but you are wrong. Expertise is not a means of making players equal in PvP. If it were, they'd automatically give it to everyone --not attach it to gear -- or they'd do away with it. And bolster is a method used to "level up" players stat-wise below the cap. They also won't be equal because BW is not actually leveling them up and giving them access to their skills that they would have at higher levels, not even within their own bracket. For example, we all know that a sage with Rescue in Huttball is a game changer. Well, currently, a sage gets that skill at level 42. A level 41 sage can't do it. I know you're more arguing gear than skills, so again, Expertise *is* attached to gear. SWTOR is sort of cobbling together yet another change to PvP that's a "little of this, a little of that and we'll see," but not really because they will have full control to "tweak" all the stats from their side. We will have little/no control as they will be able to "make adjustments on the fly" as they indicated in their patch notes. "THEY" will have more control, not us. One day, you'll have something working for ya, and the next day, or maybe several hours later, not so much, and you'll have no idea what changed. Seems pretty sketchy to me. Maybe you're just one of those fanboys that trusts every decision a developer makes "for your own good."

 

And yes, PvE is treated differently. You're right that you don't have to match one party's abilities against another's, which is very much my point. You just need a team strong enough to complete the content, the rest is properly managing the mechanics of the fight. I'll ask you this: what matters to you more than being able to get the job done in an Operation? As long as that is achieved, how does anything else *negatively* affect you? In PvP, all I want to do is win. As long as no one is cheating and/or exploiting, I don't care how the team gets it done. Maybe you'd have been happy with the way SWTOR was before they made Expertise a major stat and spread it out to all the components of the gear (previously it was a minor stat and just on the shells) , but maybe not. I don't know if you were around then or not, but I suspect that you'd have been one of those that cried about that too, that then brought upon us the changes that we've had since then and up until 2.0. If BW is going to continue to change PvP to make it more inclusive, that's fine by me (I'll be happy on my lvl 46 Sawbones when another player on my team doesn't squish between my 1st & 2nd heals because they are wearing green gear 10 levels too small) , but likewise change PvE to make *it* more inclusive and we'll call it a day. Because the previous changes that affected PvP were done at PvE'ers behest, it's time they put a little skin in the game and quit forcing their will on PvP with nothing in return.

 

A clue vendor? Make sure you have one installed in your personal starship so you can have easy and frequent access.

Edited April 8, 2013 by BoushhDC

[Kovaos]

I fully expect a PvE bolster for raids coming soon...so I can use my PvP gear and be just as well geared as the PvE raiders who do it nightly.

 

Because we wouldn't want normal PvE raiders to hide behind their gear advantage, amirite?

 

The current state of the game favors PvP much more than PvE. My fully augmented WH Gunslinger does just fine in raids, but a fully geared PvE player will get destroyed in a WZ.