Another Annihilation Vs Carnage Thread (PvP)

[Lyer]

My guild is putting together high grade teams to prepare for ranked PvP against the better known guilds on my server. Because of my ability in PvP as is, they have assured me that my spot on the team is secure, but they have concerns about the fact that I run Annihilation instead of Carnage.

 

Their concerns are not with my numbers, as my damage output is competitive with Carnage marauders. They made several points where they see Carnage as more useful to the team than Annihilation. The deal I made with them is that I will try out Carnage as long as my participation in ranked is not contingent upon my spec.

 

I switched to PvPing as Carnage last weekend and have been PvPing in that spec every day since then to get used to it, leading up to playing Carnage in our next ranked practice. I have gotten a good grasp on it, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything as Carnage that I can't do as Annihilation, except that I feel like I am taking a lot more damage. But playing in an unranked environment is different than a ranked one, so I am not certain yet.

 

Here are some points they have made in defense of Carnage over Annihilation and things I have noticed from playing both specs:

• "Bleeds get cleansed" - I switched back to Annihilation the other day and played several unranked matches against prestigious enemy guilds, and kept track of all the bleeds I could. I only saw them cleansed once, the rest of the time, they bled to the full extent (and a WZ Dummy parse showed me that fully bleeding out Deadly Saber and Rupture yields 9K damage alone, without Berserk crits). Even if they are cleansed, that is a cooldown where the healer is not healing. Cleanses are harder to throw out when the healer is in a large group battle and having to focus on health bars, switching targets, keeping away from enemy DPS while remaining in healing position, and monitoring their own cooldowns. They may not have enough focus to spare to notice who has what debuffs. In smaller battles I imagine cleanses go out much more frequently.
  
• "Carnage has better Predation" - The movement speed difference is certainly noticeable, with this I cannot disagree. Annihilation's predation is still an increase, and both grant the same buff to defense. Also, Annihilation generates and uses more Rage than Carnage, which causes Fury to build faster, which allows us to use our group buffs more often.
  
• "Burst damage kills quicker than consistent damage" - Though the overall damage numbers are the same, burst damage can catch a healer by surprise when they suddenly have a lot to catch up on. However the gaps between bursts allow the healer that time to catch up. Annihilation's damage is more consistent, but still has decent burst phases (Found that Charge>Deadly Saber>Battering Assault>Rupture>Annihilation>Ravage deals more damage than Charge>Battering Assault>Massacre>Gore>Ravage>Force Scream in the same amount of time). I also feel like consistent damage keeps a healer busy on a single target and allows less room for switching.
  
• "Carnage has Roots" - Yes, Carnage roots with Ravage, Deadly Throw, and Force Charge while Annihilation only roots with Force Charge. I do find that I use Force Charge more often as Annihilation since there is no minimum range, but the problem I found with Carnage roots is that once they expire or are broken, the enemy has full movement speed again. Running Operatives are hard to keep up with when my charge is on cooldown, but Annihilation has reduced cooldown, no minimum charge range, and a good snare in Rupture that I have found invaluable for keeping up with a running healer. Combine with Crippling Slash, and I can keep an enemy snared for their entire living duration as Annihilation as opposed to rooted for a few seconds at a time.
  

 

And let me briefly mention survivability. Self heals for Annihilation are small, but they build up over time. Often times they have been enough to keep me barely alive just long enough for a healer to reach me or finish a heal cast, which puts me back in the fight. Annihilation also gets 4% internal and elemental damage reduction from Defensive Forms while Carnage gets a 15% movement speed increase. I feel like I spend more time respawning as Carnage, and time respawning is time I am not dealing damage. When I can stay alive longer, I can deal more damage overall, and even if it's not bursty, damage dealt is damage that still has to be healed.

 

The whole thing between annihilation and Carnage seems to come down to all at once vs over time (Short roots vs long snares, Burst damage vs consistent, faster Predations farther apart vs frequent moderate increases). In addition, 2.0 will be bringing the following changes:

• Carnage - Berserk affects the cooldown of all abilities, but not the rage cost. each ability drops a stack. This will reduce the ability tunnel vision when Berserk is up and allow to be as much of a Fire-and-Forget as Annihilation's.
  
• Carnage - Slaughter skill can cause Ataru procs to refresh cooldown on Gore and Vicious Throw, as well as use Vicious Throw at any health range.
  
• Carnage - Frenzied Saber increases Defense Chance and Damage Reduction by 2% up the three stacks on Ataru proc, increasing survivability.
  
• Annihilation - Also gets a survivability increase with Blood Ward, healing 2% every 1.5 seconds if attacked with Saber Ward active.
  
• Annihilation - Deadly Saber can stack more than once every 1.5 seconds, and Juyo form can stack up to 6 times, increasing our Bleed crit chance and our overall DPS.
  
• Annihilation - Annihilator can stack up to 4 times, reducing the cooldown of Annihilation to 6 seconds, which makes it usable twice as often as Carnage can hit Force Scream. May also allow us to take Vicious Slash out of our rotation almost entirely.
  

 

 

My question is what kind of pros and cons do you have or see with Annihilation and Carnage in PvP, keeping 2.0 in mind as well? Do you consider them both viable and/or competitive in a ranked environment? Is there anything I have missed?

[Aluvi]

Dude just.. dude.. so misguided. Here is what you need to know:

 

Annihilation in PvP = BAAAAD.

Annihilation in RATED PvP = REAAAALLLY BAD.

 

Rated PvP teams have an assist train. They call out CC and kill targets. CC heals, kill high priority DPS. There is no time for build up for annihilation dots etc. It simply. Doesn't. Do. Enough. Burst. The only way you are going to kill anyone when going against a good ranked team is 1-2 smashes + powertech and sniper burst all going off on one target at the same time, preferably before the other team figures out you are on it and guards that target. Annihilation is not good for this, at all, due to long build up time and low burst.

 

I'm not even going into the whole cleansing thing, but it is a big hit to annihilation.

 

Now, as for carnage, there are only a couple of situations where carnage is better than rage. Those situations being: You are a ball carrier/ball carrier assist in huttball, OR, you need to make sure you get to a node fast in civil war (many times whoever caps their side first wins in high level civil wars due to mid not getting capped). Rage is going to be better in every other situation.

[Lyer]

Looking at the changes in 2.0, Rage seems to be getting its smash reduced since Shockwave can stack up to 3 times instead of four, and each stack increases smash damage by 11.11% instead of 25%. How do you see 2.0 affecting the preferred spec, going forward?

[arkitip]

Looking at the changes in 2.0, Rage seems to be getting its smash reduced since Shockwave can stack up to 3 times instead of four, and each stack increases smash damage by 11.11% instead of 25%. How do you see 2.0 affecting the preferred spec, going forward?

 

Each stack of shockwave, when talented, increases smash damage by 33.33%

 

Surge on Force abilities has been reduced from 30% to 15%, but it affects all abilities now.

[Satedbuffalo]

I don't have a ton of experience on my marauder/sentinel, but I can give my perspective as a healer in ranked and non-ranked matched.

 

Annihilation puts out steady damage. But I don't feel nervous about leaving someone unattended for a few GCDs against an annihilation marauder. This spec really only makes sense if you are rushing an off node or left to defend something (that shouldn't be happening). It'll keep you alive long enough to distract sufficiently, but you're probably not going to take a node solo. That said, plenty of annihilation marauders (yourself included) have easily taken me down when my CDs are down, so it's definitely a potentially troublesome spec even, or especially, when unsupported.

 

Carnage has a very predictable ramp up to heavy burst. You can definitely predict when it's going to come - a very good healer can prepare for that. A good team can interrupt it. This spec makes sense if you are assisting with single target burst DPS. If I'm queuing solo, they're a pain. If I have even one person peeling for me, I can safely ignore them: they die very quickly.

 

Rage scares me when played well. Scares me to the point where I just throw up my hands and switch to dps. Basically, if you can coordinate smash damage with your single target dps-ers, you'll very quickly overcome one or two good healers. You'll need either a) an enemy team that positions poorly or b) a friendly team that sets up the enemy for you.

 

In every spec, the thing that frustrates me the most is the marauder trauma debuff. Getting that up on your targets is *********** lethal.

 

Just my 2 cents. Play what you enjoy, imo.

[Ashuranrx]

Almost every class and spec got mobility buff in 2.0, especially the healer classes. Annihilation Marauders will have the same problem as Vengeance Juggernauts: being kited and can’t stick to the target. Anni needs to partner up with Carnage to alleviate this weakness.

 

Universal crit chance nerf hurt Annihilation more than Carnage, as Anni relies on DoT crits to do good damage. 1 extra stack of Juyo does not make up for this difference.

 

Hemorrhage nerf is huge, from 15% down to 6%. 1 extra stack of Juyo does not make up for this difference.

 

4 stacks of Annihilate take up to 30 seconds to build up in each battle, which is way too long in PvP.

 

Agonizing Sabers is a tank spec skill that belongs in a tank tree, I don’t know why Annihilation got this. We should have skills that increase our DPS to kill targets, not decreasing targets’ DPS to prolong fights.

 

Blood Ward is garbage. 12% heal every 3 minutes? That is worse than the old Payback talent in the Rage tree, which was 10% heal every 2 minutes.

 

In my opinion, a master Carnage Marauder needs to master strafing first. Carnage has higher potential than Anni. But if you can’t strafe well, then stick with Anni.

[revcrisis]

Aluvian, I wouldn't say Anni in PVP is necessarily bad. In ranked, yes, it offers less than the other 2 trees at the moment. However everyone and their mom was an annihilation marauder until rage was buffed. It was THE spec to play for skilled marauders from launch until July or August of 2012 because of the self-heals. Gradually carnage was fixed (ataru form bug) and rage was reworked with better "rage" management, and people started switching over to the other trees. But before this all happened, annihilation marauders still hit like a truck. In less than 10 seconds, a DS, Rupture, Ravage, into an Annihilation could bring a target from full health to zero with some lucky crits. Some of the most skilled marauders on Fatman played this spec and were always a pain to deal with. While I run Carnage/Rage now in rated, Anni still remains my favorite spec. The longer and faster camo, the team heals, the ability to spread dots and slows on multiple targets... it's all quite useful. Hopefully 2.0 brings a return to more Anni marauders... I rarely seem them anymore. Edited April 4, 2013 by revcrisis

[Hellhorn]

I agree with you OP, I like playing my Anni spec more than the other two but I enjoy all three specs. I think a big reason people don't like Anni is that it is much harder to master with a lot more things to keep track of. I get bored playing Rage and Carnage and can put up big numbers with those specs without trying (which isn't a bad thing, all of us can do it if they know the class, I just personally get bored with it).

 

Carnage is VERY easy to counter. If you're playing a good group you are getting CC'd quite a big and it will be hard to get off a good rotation (there are ways to mitigate this but good players will have your number). I like the extra utility of Carnage though.

 

Rage is a beast. If you want to be as effective as possible, Rage is the way to go. You don't have to worry about getting CC'd, and your rotation being less than optimal, because you can get your smash off pretty easily. I just don't find Rage as challenging.

 

I agree that the cleansing argument is a bad one. I rarely get my DoT's cleansed and if I do, that's okay. I'm going to be putting DoT's on the healer continuously, so if they want to cleanse that's just precious seconds where they are not healing themselves or a teammate. You are taking the healer out of the WZ and weakening their group. Good! And that extra healing is too quickly ignored in these conversations because it isn't as good as it use to be.

 

Anni might not be the best tree atm, but it is still very viable with a skilled player.

[ekimmak]

It often feels to me like Annihilation just can't get the job done in a warzone. It just seems to take too much time to build up to a respectable amount of damage. But then, I lose most of my duels irregardless. Whether that's because I can't get enough comms to buy some respectable gear, or I'm just a bad player, I don't know.

[Serrowherrow]

I agree with you OP, I like playing my Anni spec more than the other two but I enjoy all three specs. I think a big reason people don't like Anni is that it is much harder to master with a lot more things to keep track of.

 

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but the reason why Anni is considered inferior to the other two specs is not because only a select few have have the blessed ability to play it reasonably well, but simply due to its design. Trying to rationalize that people don't consider it competitive for ranked pvp by simply saying they're all bad or that the spec requires more skill doesn't lend anything useful to the argument - I can just as well argue that Carnage requires far more input and tactical foresight, but that doesn't really matter. It's opinion.

 

Carnage is VERY easy to counter. If you're playing a good group you are getting CC'd quite a big and it will be hard to get off a good rotation (there are ways to mitigate this but good players will have your number). I like the extra utility of Carnage though.

 

It depends. Your average Carnage marauder will charge in and blow everything they have in the first two or three seconds - this makes it extremely easy to mitigate their opening burst, and is a tactical error on the part of the Carnie. A more wise approach is to save gore and ravage for an opportunity when it's less likely to be interrupted, and it's also something to consider that the fact that CC is being blown on you at all is an advantage. I'd rather be stunned four times as a Carnage marauder than my healer get stunned four times.

 

CCs in general can be characterized as being a counter, even anni isn't immune to that. If anything, anni could be worse off, as they lack the ability to catch a slippery healer once they withdraw from melee.

 

I agree that the cleansing argument is a bad one. I rarely get my DoT's cleansed and if I do, that's okay. I'm going to be putting DoT's on the healer continuously, so if they want to cleanse that's just precious seconds where they are not healing themselves or a teammate. You are taking the healer out of the WZ and weakening their group. Good! And that extra healing is too quickly ignored in these conversations because it isn't as good as it use to be.

 

Even if it rarely happens it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered as a factor. I might have been willing to agree with this assessment, but as of 2.0 cleanses are much better than they are now, and will be a no-brainer for healers to cast on their targets. This in turn will seriously hinder the performance of an anni marauder, who can only reset one of their dots on a 6-12 second cooldown, with the other on a 12s hard cooldown, so it's not a continuous dot train.

 

Anni might not be the best tree atm, but it is still very viable with a skilled player.

 

Ultimately it doesn't matter if it's viable in unranked warzones, which it performs so-so in. The thread's about ranked, where taking an anni marauder is a hindrance.

 

To clarify something, this doesn't imply anything about the player's ability to use the spec to its full potential - it's just that it's not built for burst, which is king of ranked pvp. By having a sustained DoT DPS, you have to consider the opportunity cost of bringing along that kind of damage-dealer. What if there was Pyrotech in that mara's place? A rage jug? A carnage mara? What if the other team has a similar makeup, but they brought along a more bursty DPS instead?

 

Ultimately, the opportunity cost of bringing an Annhi marauder is too high for their benefits.

 

Sustained DPS? Fights are generally over in about 30 seconds or so.

 

Heals? They're paltry, even more so after the nerf.

 

Burst? Practically non-existent. Sure if you get a string of lucky crits you'll pressure the target - but a string of lucky crits for a Carnage or Rage marauder is a dead target.

 

I played nothing but Annhi during the initial stages of the game, back when Carnage was utterly broke and useless. I swore by the spec, and admit that it's a fun and well-designed spec, but it wasn't created with pvp in mind I feel. A good player can make it work like any good player can make a spec work - but it'll forever be outclassed by the other two specs more suited to a ranked environment, foregoing any major changes to the spec itself.

 

My two creds.

[Lyer]

I've always been a strong proponent of the philosophy that one should play the class and spec that they enjoy rather than playing what is statistically superior or FotM. I also don't like the thought of switching my spec for every different activity. I prefer a balanced spec that can be applied to any situation. That said, I understand that ranked warzone teams are assembled to win, and a team of players all just playing their "fun" class will not perform well against teams that are formed with intent to win.

 

So what I will probably do is continue to use Annihilation in PvE and casual PvP, but when I make the transition into a ranked environment, I will switch to Carnage.

[Luckeyduckey]

Annihilation seems to be one of those "Good or Bad" specs. Either you play it really well, and do well, or you play it bad and you do... guess. It's definitely a tree that follows the skill curve, compared to rage. Obviously a good rage player is definitely dangerous, but Annihilation scales better with skill. It's fun, too

 

I do fine with Annihi in PvP. Really, you can always respec to rage for Rated, then play Annihi or Carnage in Normals.

[RodneyMcNeely]

So, of the three specs - Annihilation, Carnage, Rage - which do you guys consider the best for 1v1 play?

 

I LOVE to duel and 1v1 is where I have the most fun. I'm not really keen on Rage, just because it seems like a one-trick pony. I'm really torn between Annihlation and Carnage, but I really want to be able to defeat a healer in a 1v1 fight. Can Annihilation defeat a healer 1v1, or is Carnage pretty much a forgone conclusion in that kind of fight.

 

Thanks for your time!

[Morpurgo]

So, of the three specs - Annihilation, Carnage, Rage - which do you guys consider the best for 1v1 play?

 

I LOVE to duel and 1v1 is where I have the most fun. I'm not really keen on Rage, just because it seems like a one-trick pony. I'm really torn between Annihlation and Carnage, but I really want to be able to defeat a healer in a 1v1 fight. Can Annihilation defeat a healer 1v1, or is Carnage pretty much a forgone conclusion in that kind of fight.

 

Thanks for your time!

 

Carnage. You wont be in the first place in damage scoreboard like smash monkeys but in 1v1 and vs tanks, healers you will bring the pain.

Rage is great for Juggernaut imho but for my Mara I really like Carnage. I used to run it in Annihilation but after 2.0 it kinda didnt cut it anymore.

I have Sweep Guardian (aka smash monkey) and Carnage Mara, both keep things interesting in pvp.

[Omophorus]

So, of the three specs - Annihilation, Carnage, Rage - which do you guys consider the best for 1v1 play?

 

I LOVE to duel and 1v1 is where I have the most fun. I'm not really keen on Rage, just because it seems like a one-trick pony. I'm really torn between Annihlation and Carnage, but I really want to be able to defeat a healer in a 1v1 fight. Can Annihilation defeat a healer 1v1, or is Carnage pretty much a forgone conclusion in that kind of fight.

 

Thanks for your time!

 

Rage.

 

Hands down.

 

Best short-distance mobility. Least counter-able burst. Sturdiest of the 3 specs.

 

It's not even a 1 trick pony in 2.0, as Smash sets you up to do more damage afterwards with your other skills. Force Scream is now a solid (free!) burst skill. Ravage still hits like a truck when you can slip one in. Crush is more user-friendly. Vicious Slash is nastier.

 

Carnage has theoretically superior single-target burst but it's also easy to counter and more fragile.

 

If your main goal in PVP is to DPS, Rage is always the answer. Carnage is good for its team buffs and utility, and is solid when you can sneak its burst in. You can stop Carnage from bursting. The only way to stop Rage is to kill it outright.

[RodneyMcNeely]

If your main goal in PVP is to DPS, Rage is always the answer. Carnage is good for its team buffs and utility, and is solid when you can sneak its burst in. You can stop Carnage from bursting. The only way to stop Rage is to kill it outright.

So, if I'm facing a healer in a 1v1 situation how reliably will I be able to kill him/her using a Rage build?

 

And thanks for the replies so far, guys!

[Omophorus]

So, if I'm facing a healer in a 1v1 situation how reliably will I be able to kill him/her using a Rage build?

 

And thanks for the replies so far, guys!

 

There aren't a whole lot of people killing healers in 1v1 situations period in 2.0. All 3 healing ACs have enough throughput that the odds on finishing the fight before the healer gets help are almost zero. If you're dueling in Outlaw's Den or something, it's a little bit different, but in any WZ, you can basically rule out dueling a healer.

 

Healers are unlikely to kill you, but in 2.0 they plain and simple can heal through your DPS long enough to get backup. If it's an Operative/Scoundrel, you're just straight-up not killing them.

 

Of the 3 DPS ACs, Rage is certainly the most able to seriously put a hurting on, as all 3 healer ACs have enough control options to neuter Gore and avoid being hit with Ravage. Carnage can keep them from running, but can't put enough burst on to kill them before help arrives. Rage can Smash regardless and is almost as resistant to being kited thanks to Charge + Obliterate.

[Morpurgo]

So, if I'm facing a healer in a 1v1 situation how reliably will I be able to kill him/her using a Rage build?

 

And thanks for the replies so far, guys!

 

With Rage there is really not much chance at all. With Carnage I can kill Sages if they are bad or medium skilled players but against Scoundrels 1v1 there is no hope, you need at least 2 dps for Scoundrel/Operative.

People are getting so used to smash monkeys everywhere that they sometimes really dont expect the sudden burst and shock Carnage will bring and that's really nice element of surprise lot of times.

[Buck-Wild]

See there is also a few Hybrid specs rolling around out there now...I myself have used a Hybrid Carnage/Rage spec which basically consists of Carnage up to Gore and Rage up to Shockwave which in turn if your using Berserk where u gain 3 stacks of Shockwave instantly and then u gore the target u get a 100% armor penetration to unleash a full smash on the opponent and still have time to let off a force scream and partial Ravage or a VS...so with this setup I find it viable and close behind full Smash monkey.