This is still an issue! Can't get up to the snipers on Thrasher in S&V Hard Mode. Try to jump to Demolitionist and end up sliding down the wall. Has been happening since 2.1. Before then, it worked just fine.

An idea I stumbled across today: Allow ops groups of exactly 8 or 16 to queue for PvP (Hear me out, ideas in place to prevent power-levelling or comm/valor grinding). If it is an 8-person group, two groups of four will be pitted against each other in an unranked Arena game (4v4), remaining in the pre-arranged groups of four. No valor, rank, exp, credits, or comms will be awarded, nor will kills, medals, or wins be tallied while using the pre-arranged system. If it is a 16-person group, two groups of eight will be pitted against each other in an unranked Warzone (8v8) that the ops group leader is prompted to select. Again, no valor, rank, exp, credits, or comms will be awarded, nor kills, medals or wins tallied. This would provide guilds or groups a great resource for PvP practice, especially if there is a much more skilled guild dominating warzones to the point that nobody else is having any fun. It would allow for practicing coordination, teamwork, etc in a more controlled environment. A lot easier for practicing ranked team strategies without penalty.

Well this one had better, or I'll go back to bumping this thread.

Great to hear that a fix is announced for Patch 2.3! Thanks to everyone who posted combat logs and those who kept the thread bumped and visible!

I was really frustrated when I first came across this issue, but I've been able to get around it at least on this fight. I've found that if you can leap to the demolitionist from the group (no space-bar jump), you will land on the top area. But more often than not this is prevented by "Cannot see Target". What has become most effective for me is to get a sniper in our group to pop one of the snipers out of cover and jump to the sniper. Jumping to them seems to work fine for me. If there is no "Out of cover" ability in your group, wait until the sniper shields are down from ranged DPS or Thrasher's roar.

Darn it, you beat me to it. I like to put mine in two-in-ones so they don't actually spoil anything. The Collectors are Darth Revan all along.

I certainly hear that. When we wipe on a boss with 2 or 3% left, my mind comes right back to this issue. The only thing we have heard is BW's response that the relics are working as intended, though I (and multiple others) do not believe they fully understand the issue. Something may have been lost in communication. The one glimmer of hope they left us with is that, even though the relics are supposedly working as intended, they are considering revisiting how the relics interact with each other in a future update. I still consider the issue relevant and appreciate the thread remaining active to keep the issue in front of the devs and players.

Here is my mathematical comparison of expected damage from all current endgame PvE relics. Take note that this is for comparison between relics only and is not entirely reflective of the actual damage that each relic will produce: Kell Dragon Relic of Serendipitous Assault On Hit: Healing an ally or performing a damaging attack on an enemy both have a 30% chance to grant 595 Power for 6 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 20 seconds, and shares this limit with similar healing or damaging effects. It will not trigger inside of PvP areas. Let's imagine a series of ten attacks that are eligible for the power proc, ignoring the cooldown. We expect 3 of these ten attacks to be procs, while the rest are just regular attacks without proc. Our attack string total is ten, but we add 13 on the tail end of each expected proc, since that is the number of attacks that will happen in the cooldown phase. This gives us a total of 49 attacks, and the proc effect will be up for 12 of those attacks. This gives us 595x(12/49) = 145.71 power per attack. Power converts to bonus damage at a rate of Power*.23. 145.71*.23=33.514 Further, expected damage converts to actual damage at a rate determined by the player. This varies depending on the player, class, and rotation, but for the sake of these calculations, I'll use my conversion rate which is 1.7. (I get this number by calculating my expected DPS, taking into account Primary and Secondary damage, Primary and Secondary accuracy, Crit Chance, Surge, and global cooldown, and then running a series of long parses without relics at all, then dividing the difference. Pre-2.0 I could get this multiplier to 2, multiplier may be different for each player. Above 1.8, Serendipitous Assault becomes better than External damage relics) So to bring that all together, the expected damage per attack becomes represented by 33.514*1.7 = 56.974 Kell Dragon Relic of Boundless Ages On Use: Increases Power by 460 for 30 seconds. Can not be activated in PvP areas. This is a much easier calculation. The power effect is up for 30 seconds out of 2 minutes, or 1/4 of the time if used on cooldown. (460/4)*.23*1.7 = 44.965 Kell Dragon Relic of the Cerulean Nova / Kell Dragon Relic of the Kinetic Tempest On Hit: Damaging attacks have a 30% chance to deal 382 additional kinetic/energy Force/Tech damage to the target. This effect can only occur once every 4.5 seconds, and shares this limit with similar damage-dealing effects. It will not trigger inside of PvP areas. This will be a similar calculation to the Serendipitous Assault. We expect 3 procs every ten attacks with a 3-attack CD after each proc, giving us 3 procs expected in 19 attacks. That yields 382*(3/19) = 60.315 This number is not affected by the expected to actual conversion rate since the final number is straight up damage, not power that will then be converted to damage by ability coefficients. Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages Easy calculation here. 120 power, static stat, no effect. 120*.23*1.7 = 46.92 HOWEVER!!! Keep in mind that all of the other relics have a base 36 power, which means the numbers for all other relics should be increased by 36*.23, or 8.28 for comparison against this relic. Adding this detail puts the EWH BA relic in dead last. Kell Dragon Relic of Dark Radiance / Kell Dragon Relic of Elemental Transcendence On Hit: Damaging attacks have a 30% chance to deal 287 additional elemental/internal Force/Tech damage to the target. This effect can only occur once every 4.5 seconds, and shares this limit with similar damage-dealing effects. It will not trigger inside of PvP areas. Because these relics bypass armor, we will have to compare to the other relics at different armor break levels to see when they are more useful than the others. Damage reduction from armor is calculated as ArmorRating / ( ArmorRating + 240 * Level + 800 ) * 100, and ops bosses have 7539 armor (as calculated from a 35% base damage reduction from armor). At any armor level, this relic deals an expected damage of 287*3/19 = 45.315 At 100% enemy armor (0% armor break, 35% damage reduction): Power Proc: 56.974 * .65 = 37.03 Power Click: 44.965 * .65 = 29.227 External Proc: 60.315 * .65 = 39.20 At 65% enemy armor (35% armor break, 26% damage reduction) Power Proc: 56.974 * .74 = 42.16 Power Click: 44.965 * .74 = 33.27 External Proc: 60.315 * .74 = 44.63 At 50% enemy armor (50% armor break, 21.2% damage reduction) Power Proc: 56.974 * .788 = 44.89 Power Click: 44.965 * .788 = 35.43 External Proc: 60.315 * .788 = 47.52 This means that passing 35% armor penetration, the external proc relic approaches surpassing the internal. What this means: The Boundless Ages relics are way behind on expected damage compared to the proc relics. Serendipitous Assault aside, picking the right proc relic depends greatly on your class. Classes with 35% or more average armor penetration, like Arsenal Mercenary or Combat Sentinel, would do best to take an energy/kinetic damage proc, while classes with less than 35% armor penetration are better served with an internal/elemental proc relic, the final choice coming down to whether your class uses force or tech attacks. Exceptions can of course be made if you know that your group will always have a sufficient armor break on the boss, but such a factor is not always guaranteed, and it will not help in damage against adds or solo fights. Classes that use mostly cast abilities and may not fire off attacks as rapidly (Marksman Sniper or Telekinesis Sage) may do better with the Boundless Ages clicky relic since their slower rate of attack may reduce the number of expected relic procs. Boundless Ages clicky relic can also be used by any class that needs to focus more damage into a boss burn phase, a heavily phased boss in general, or smaller, shorter fights. Also, even though the numbers for Serendipitous Assault come out lower than direct damage relics, rapid attacks like those used by DoT classes (Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel) increase the relic's value due to the number of attacks that are affected when the proc is active. Rapid attacks classes will benefit more from a Serendipitous Assault relic than direct damage, at least until the non-stack issue is fixed. But either way, this is my mathematical proof that Direct Damage and Serendipitous Assault proc relics are the two most effective relics for a good number of DPS classes, and why being unable to stack them is reducing our potential. Please feel free to contest my findings or provide your own. I would rather be wrong and corrected than wrong and unquestioned.

While I appreciate the thread bumping, please keep your posts on topic. The bickering about how people play, how they act, or how they bicker is not helping the players or devs understand the issue at hand. That said, if there is disagreement on which relics are best, I can re-run and post the mathematics tonight when I am off work. If I'm not mistaken, that is what led into the thread-derailing argument in the first place, but it is relevant to the issue at hand because if Boundless Ages relics have a higher expected output than Direct Damage relics, the entire issue is a moot point. I'll post those numbers later tonight.

On my Marauder in Scum and Villainy (Hard Mode), during the Thrasher encounter, I am using Force Charge to jump to the Mercenary Demolitionist that spawns with the snipers intermitently. I usually cannot see him when my feet are on the ground, so I jump up to force charge to him. This used to work just fine, but lately every force charge I use mid-jump has caused me to jump, charge, and then immediately slide down the wall. The first few times we did Hard Mode, I completed the jump over and over with no problem. I can still make it up there if I can manage to get a charge off without jumping first, but that doesn't always happen. This became annoying the first time it happened, and has not failed to happen since.

Yes, this is just PvE. One of the parses in the original post is a parse with two PvP relics that stack just fine.

Hi Eric, Thanks for the supportive reply, even though it is not what we wanted to hear. The way it is now, the Direct Damage relics are rendered useless, making a Serendipitous Assault and Boundless Ages relic the only viable choices. If the relics were able to stack instead, The Serendipitous Assault relic would still be best, but all of the other relics, Direct Damage and clicky relics would be viable, depending on the user's class and spec. Force classes with 30% average armor penetration would want the Kinetic Tempest relic, those without armor pen would want Dark Radiance, Tech classes with 30% armor pen would take Cerulean Nova, and those without would take elemental transcendence. Any class could also opt for a Clicky relic instead to focus their DPS into boss burn phases or shorter fights for greater benefit. I don't buy that this was intended, but it is good to know that a redesign of how the relics interact is in the works. Hopefully we can see this sometime soon, because right now, our options are limited when they really shouldn't have to be. I'm going to keep this thread active to spread awareness of the issue and support of a fix or change, however you want to receive it.

To reiterate, PvP relics do not suffer this issue. The PvP relics stack just fine. PvP does not stack with PvE though.

For now, yes. I would say to get an Underworld Serendipitous Assault relic and Arkanian Boundless Ages relic, but save your second Underworld relic token until this gets sorted out or clarified.

Updated the parse list. Also, BobaFaceroll's parse (http://www.torparse.com/a/262993) does get power surge, but even though it is a PvP relic and his direct damage relic is PvE, the non-stacking issue still applies. This means that the PvP SA relics don't stack with the PvE DD relics either.

Updated the list of player parses, indicating class, spec, and relics in use. Thanks for the input! Also: No, the PvP relics stack just fine. http://www.torparse.com/l/242155 is my PvP parse over just a short time, and the extra 4.5 second cooldown is not in effect. The relics proc within 4.5 seconds of each other twice, even in just the short time this parse takes up. Look for "Power Surge" and "Wind Buffet".

Update: (6/29/13) Fix announced for Patch 2.3! Great news! Update: (6/05/13) Bioware has presented a "Working As Intended" response, but they are considering a redesign of the relics in question for a future update. I am keeping this thread active and will continue to update the parse list to promote awareness for this issue and support for its resolution.[/i] The Issue: The PvE Serendipitous Assault (SA) relics do not stack with the PvE Direct Damage (DD) relics (Dark Radiance, Elemental Transcendence, etc). Details: When the PvE SA relic of any tier procs its power buff effect, it puts any equipped DD relic on a 4.5s cooldown. The same happens the other way around. I would not expect this to happen because the relics are only supposed to be non-stacking with similar effects. Their effects differ in the following ways: Trigger - The SA relic triggers on damage and healing, while the DD relics only trigger on attacks, both at a 30% chance. Damage Mechanism - The SA relic applies a 6s buff on the user that increases power, while the DD relics deal a set amount of damage directly to the target. Cooldown - The SA relic can only apply its effect once every 20 seconds. The DD relics cool down in 4.5 seconds. As it is now: Currently, the SA and DD relics used together cannot proc both of their effects within the same 4.5 second period. Upon browsing a combat log of a long parse, the effects are always separated by 4.5 seconds. If it worked correctly: The relics should be able to stack, which would mean the effects of both relics should be able to proc on their own cooldowns independently. This would keep the SA proc from being delayed by multiple DD procs in a row and allow DD procs on top of SA procs as well. What this means: As it is now, a player using both relics may as well be using just one of them, if not for the static stats on the relics. The inability for these relics to stack decreases potential DPS by 1-3%, depending on the RNG. Combat logs from parses with PvP and PvE gear: Carnage, PvP, SA, DD http://www.torparse.com/l/242155 Power Surge is the SA buff, Wind Buffet is the DD attack. In this short PvP gear parse, you can see the Wind Buffet proc'ing within 4.5 seconds of the Power Surge effect twice (Second Power Surge), once before and once after. It procs 3.2s before and 1.4s after the Power Surge. This shows that PvP relics are not affected by this issue. Annihilation, PvE, SA, DD http://www.torparse.com/l/242323 Power Surge is the SA buff, Dark Spike is the DD attack. To browse this log, it is best to ctrl+F and search for Power Surge, then look within 4.5 seconds of each one front and back. The fight lasted almost 5 minutes, but not once does Dark Spike proc within the 4.5 second frame before or after a Power Surge. Other parses linked from other players: http://www.torparse.com/a/211929/3/0/Overview (Arsenal Mercenary, SA and Energy Surge relic) http://www.torparse.com/a/243083/2/0/Overview ^ http://www.torparse.com/a/229039 (Carnage Marauder, SA and Burning Force relic) http://www.torparse.com/a/219666 ^ http://www.torparse.com/a/209577 ^ http://www.torparse.com/a/207955 ^ http://www.torparse.com/a/260125 (Sniper Hybrid, SA and Dark Radiance relic) http://www.torparse.com/a/261157 (Sniper Hybrid, SA and Dark Radiance used in separate parses) http://www.torparse.com/a/262993 (Lethality Sniper, PvP SA and PvE Cerulean Nova relic) http://www.torparse.com/a/271424 (Annihilation Marauder, SA with Dark Radiance relic) http://www.torparse.com/a/276445/2/0/Log (Carnage Marauder, SA with Dark Radiance relic) Mathematical relic breakdown here

A response from Bioware at least saying whether this is intended or not and whether it is in their plans to fix at some point or not would be nice. I'm still holding onto my Unassembled Underworld Relics so as not to waste them until I am sure.

Here you go. I tested with PvP relics as well, and they stack just fine. The PvE ones do not. Here are the combat logs for both. Carnage, PvP, SA, DD http://www.torparse.com/l/242155 Power Surge is the SA buff, Wind Buffet is the DD attack. In this short PvP gear parse, you can see the Wind Buffet proc'ing within 4.5 seconds of the Power Surge effect twice (Second Power Surge), once before and once after. It procs 3.2s before and 1.4s after the Power Surge. Annihilation, PvE, SA, DD http://www.torparse.com/l/242323 Power Surge is the SA buff, Dark Spike is the DD attack. To browse this log, it is best to ctrl+F and search for Power Surge, then look within 4.5 seconds of each one front and back. The fight lasted almost 5 minutes, but not once does Dark Spike proc within the 4.5 second frame before or after a Power Surge.

I've been wondering the same thing, and I have seen others posting about it here and there. I've also made posts about other bugs I have found in PvE relics, but the devs seem strangely unconcerned about them. PvE relics just don't seem to be on their list of things to fix.

Gotcha.

I have submitted in-game bug reports, but one was closed without response while the other got a response suggesting I post my ideas on the Suggestion Box forum, so I am not convinced anyone is aware of this bug. I also posted numerous threads in the General, Suggestion Box, and Customer Service forums, all of which have been completely overlooked and buried without response from anyone, devs or players alike. The new Bug Report forum now seems the best place to post this. I would like to know if anyone else even cares about this issue, as the new PvE Direct Damage proc relics are mathematically better than the equivalent Boundless Ages clicky relics. If this is working as intended, which I strongly doubt, it would be good to know as well. (If this thread gets buried, I'll repost with better formatting.)

This strikes me as a case where you are TRYING to break the game. As such, I don't think this is a high-priority issue.

Why are you using AOEs on a single isolated target?

This is in the known issues list: If players log out with quickbars unlocked, the quickbar lock icon will incorrectly appear to be locked upon logging back in. Workaround: Players can lock and then unlock their quickbars for the icon to appear correctly.