The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 01: Revan vs. Meetra Surik

[Beniboybling]

Not whatsoever, also Karpyshyn's own novel depicts the exile in a far different light than the resilient woman described in other works, he basically demotes her to Revan's apprentice and shows her basically snapping her ankle every time she has a fight, it was a clear way of him taking a leak on KotOR II and giving the finger to Chris Avellone.

What other works? In KOTOR II her character is entirely dictated by the player! And canon is canon. My Meetra was a evil, dark side monster! Imagine my shock when I read the Revan novel... Edited March 18, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

What other works? In KOTOR II her character is entirely dictated by the player! And canon is canon. My Meetra was a evil, dark side monster!

 

She has not only entries in multiple guide books, but she also has descriptions in many WOtC works and in the comics.

[Beniboybling]

I also love how I am the only one debating FOR the Exile again, this is the single most fair versus thread I've taken part in.

Have you ever considered that that may be because your on the wrong side?

[Ventessel]

I also love how I am the only one debating FOR the Exile again, this is the single most fair versus thread I've taken part in.

 

I'm sorry no one agrees with your interpretation of the Exile? I can always hold a gun to my roommate's head and tell him to debate for your side, but I doubt those type of contributions would be much use. I think the core problem here is that you're the only one who believes the Exile has a shot.

[Beniboybling]

The KotOR CG, no not the rewrite after WotC was bought out, but the original book that established half the backstories for characters in that time.

 

It also gives out a list of her abilities.

 

Furthermore to all the '*** is Force Enlightenment' it was established as what happened to a Jedi who had harnessed and unlocked fully the Light Side, to quote it on the dot.

Do me a favour and just, type them out. And maybe you should get the updated version, seeing as that would be the canon one...

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm sorry no one agrees with your interpretation of the Exile? I can always hold a gun to my roommate's head and tell him to debate for your side, but I doubt those type of contributions would be much use. I think the core problem here is that you're the only one who believes the Exile has a shot.

 

I do...but I don't have vast amounts of information or feats, unlike with some other chars that I can just pull out. Odd enough its mostly Sith I have good information on.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ventessel]

I do...but I don't have vast amounts of information or feats, unlike with some other chars that I can just pull out. Odd enough its mostly Sith I have good information on.

 

I stand corrected, Rayla. One of your supporters has spoken up... but it appears that he doesn't have a lot of information on the characters concerned.

 

If you're looking for good sources, start with Wookiepedia. Then consult ancillary works like the WotC Campaign guides, the Revan novel, etc.

 

And I believe that the most up to date edition of the KotOR CG is the one we should regard as canon. Furthermore, since we can't use game mechanics to accurately assess a character's abilities, the Revan novel supercedes anything we see in the game itself when there is a question of canonicity.

[LadyKulvax]

I'm sorry no one agrees with your interpretation of the Exile? I can always hold a gun to my roommate's head and tell him to debate for your side, but I doubt those type of contributions would be much use. I think the core problem here is that you're the only one who believes the Exile has a shot.

 

Says the Pro-Revan debaters here, excellent advice.

 

Also don't accuse me of such things, the ORIGINAL canon Exile which was established through the guides, WotC games from the era and the comics gave her a rather thorough canon establishment.

 

As usual Karpyshyn came in and totally rewrote that, apparently I am the only here who managed to read those entries.

 

There are two different Exiles in canon(This is debated at GREAT length on the force.net forums) which you'd see if you had been dabbling in the timeline for long enough, one who was meant to have rebuult the order trained six Jedi and literally rewrote the Jedi's approach to war in the High council chambers on Coruscant, then there is the version in the Revan novel who isn't nearly as independent.

 

You guys didn't actually think the huge backlash over the Exile's fate was because it wasn't their own interpretation? no, it was because another retcon basically happened.

[Aurbere]

Revan did the same, but to a greater extent. He was heralded by Canderous Ordo as the greatest Jedi ever or something to that effect.

 

Mandalore the Preserver told Surik, with respect, that even with all their martial training, battles and ethics, even the greatest of his Mandalorian warriors were no match for her

- wookieepedia

Edited March 18, 2013 by Aurbere

[Ventessel]

Says the Pro-Revan debaters here, excellent advice.

 

Also don't accuse me of such things, the ORIGINAL canon Exile which was established through the guides, WotC games from the era and the comics gave her a rather thorough canon establishment.

 

As usual Karpyshyn came in and totally rewrote that, apparently I am the only here who managed to read those entries.

 

There are two different Exiles in canon(This is debated at GREAT length on the force.net forums) which you'd see if you had been dabbling in the timeline for long enough, one who was meant to have rebuult the order trained six Jedi and literally rewrote the Jedi's approach to war in the High council chambers on Coruscant, then there is the version in the Revan novel who isn't nearly as independent.

 

You guys didn't actually think the huge backlash over the Exile's fate was because it wasn't their own interpretation? no, it was because another retcon basically happened.

 

I don't support the retcon, but there's no use arguing with it. I also think the whole reborn Palp thing was garbage, but have to accept it as canon until further notice from LucasArts.

 

What we could figure is maybe Surik just seems much less independent around Revan because of her adulation of him and how she just feels completely in his shadow... which does not bode well if they're forced to fight each other.

[Selenial]

I'm sorry no one agrees with your interpretation of the Exile? I can always hold a gun to my roommate's head and tell him to debate for your side, but I doubt those type of contributions would be much use. I think the core problem here is that you're the only one who believes the Exile has a shot.

 

Um no.

I agree with Rayla too, and ive said so, but from the way you and a couple others have been acting in this thread im not voicing my opinions...

Not only do you refuse to believe Canon simply because Your Revan faboi alter-ego is kicking in, but your quite deliberately ripping into Rayla, not just saying shes wrong, but in a very harsh way that honestly is pushing more people away from the debate than it is bringing to your side, so maybe, if you want a fun forum discussion, you might want to lighten up a bit.

[pbajnokl]

I really really REALY like every Revan flame war. We can continue this for an other few days but there is more Revan fan than Meetra fan. I think that Meetra has some uniqe advantage ( she is a vound in the force, that's the only reason why she could beat nihilus and this is not an advantage over Revan) over all Revan is better/stronger, they both learned from the same master (Kreia) not to mention Revan has much more teacher not just those in the KOTOR but from the Empire too... maybe.

[LadyKulvax]

Um no.

I agree with Rayla too, and ive said so, but from the way you and a couple others have been acting in this thread im not voicing my opinions...

Not only do you refuse to believe Canon simply because Your Revan faboi alter-ego is kicking in, but your quite deliberately ripping into Rayla, not just saying shes wrong, but in a very harsh way that honestly is pushing more people away from the debate than it is bringing to your side, so maybe, if you want a fun forum discussion, you might want to lighten up a bit.

 

Seriously, I came into the debate to have fun and the entire time I've just had judgemental angry post after post in reply.

 

Did I do something? Starting to wonder whether it was worth coming back, theforce.net is much more friendly and isn't filled with 'source' this.

Edited March 18, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Ventessel]

Um no.

I agree with Rayla too, and ive said so, but from the way you and a couple others have been acting in this thread im not voicing my opinions...

Not only do you refuse to believe Canon simply because Your Revan faboi alter-ego is kicking in, but your quite deliberately ripping into Rayla, not just saying shes wrong, but in a very harsh way that honestly is pushing more people away from the debate than it is bringing to your side, so maybe, if you want a fun forum discussion, you might want to lighten up a bit.

 

My Revan fanboy alter ego? Basically, the crux of your argument is that my love of Revan blinds me to "canon" when in fact I have used nothing but the most up to date and valid canonical statements to support my arguments, while Rayla instead insists on considering information that has either been retconned away or otherwise updated. I can't help the facts.

 

Please, highlight the canon that I "refuse to believe".

 

This discussion really never had potential to be fun as long as two contentious characters like this were pitted together. It's unfortunate that Surik turned out to be much weaker than we were originally led to believe, or perhaps Revan, Nyriss, and Vitiate just turned out to be in a different league. There's very little room to argue canon on this one, since the strongest argument for Surik so far has been her ability to use Force Sever, which only appears in an outdated sourcebook.

[pbajnokl]

Revan did the same, but to a greater extent. He was heralded by Canderous Ordo as the greatest Jedi ever or something to that effect.

Mandalore the Preserver told Surik, with respect, that even with all their martial training, battles and ethics, even the greatest of his Mandalorian warriors were no match for her

- wookieepedia

 

In the mandalorian wars most of the soldiers (even the best of the best's) have died. Canderous mandalorians just the shadow of there former self's, not to mention mandalore the ultimate is a better figther then canderous. That's why canderous become mandalore after the death of the previus mandalore, and who was the one who killed the ultimate?

Edited March 18, 2013 by pbajnokl

[Ventessel]

Seriously, I came into the debate to have fun and the entire time I've just had judgemental angry post after post in reply.

 

Did I do something?

 

I don't think anyone's gone after you personally so much as the characters involved are both well loved and only lightly documented. They were each the protagonist of their respective games, and that's bound to create a lot of die hard fans.

 

However, if we set aside emotional attachment (and that includes any irrational hatred of Revan some people may have due to the excesses of "fanboys") then the canonical facts seem to clearly indicate that Revan is an order of magnitude beyond Surik.

[Wolfninjajedi]

and who was the one who killed the ultimate?

 

Revan, but then that is sort of obvious it was clearly one sided.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kilikaa]

Not whatsoever, also Karpyshyn's own novel depicts the exile in a far different light than the resilient woman described in other works, he basically demotes her to Revan's apprentice and shows her basically snapping her ankle every time she has a fight, it was a clear way of him taking a leak on KotOR II and giving the finger to Chris Avellone.

 

This I totally agree with. After reading the Revan book a second time it become obvious that DK hated the fact Meetra was even created for KOTOR2 and wanted to slap her down. Drew did a great job with the BANE trilogy but I really wish he had not written Revan. His bias against The Exile is clear. I would love to see that novel retconned out of existance and someone re-write it, someone who is not biased against KOTOR2 and it's main character.

 

I would love to contribute more, but Rayla is arguing for Meetra much better than I ever could.

[Aurbere]

Alright Rayla. Let's see what I can do for you.

 

Let's first go over the argument that Revan has more knowledge than Meetra Surik.

 

Remember the war that took place a few short decades before the Mandalorian Wars? During that time, we had several Jedi with a vast resevoir of knowledge get killed by Exar Kun. Arca Jeth (known for having an immense amount of knowledge) was killed prior to the Sith War. Weaponmaster Vodo Baas was killed by Exar Kun on Coruscant. And Odan-Urr was killed by Exar Kun on Ossus. These three in particular had an immense amount of Jedi Knowledge to pass on to future generations. Couple that with the loss of the Great Library and we have a severely weakened Jedi Order.

 

Revan was said to have learned much of what the Jedi had to offer, but what it did offer was not as much as some would hope. This applies to Meetra as well, but what she has going for her is being a Force Enlightened Jedi Master. Surik has unlocked the full scope of the Light Side, giving her a greater deal of Light Side knowledge than Revan. Dark Side is another story.

 

Lightsaber skill?

 

Meetra Surik battled Sion and Traya in the heart of Malachor (a nexus of the Dark Side) and won. Sion was a Jedi hunter and nigh immortal. Not only was she debilitated by the nexus, but Sion was drawing on it (he says so himself). Surik proved herself capable of lasting long enough in a full lightsaber duel while eroding Sion's will. She can do the same to Revan.

[Aurbere]

Seriously, I came into the debate to have fun and the entire time I've just had judgemental angry post after post in reply.

 

Did I do something? Starting to wonder whether it was worth coming back, theforce.net is much more friendly and isn't filled with 'source' this.

 

Don't give in. It's just the Revan 'stuff' That's why I wanted to do this one first. Get it out of the way because I knew this would happen.

 

Should I have included Revan? The answer is debatable, but I felt that Revan would make for some interesting match ups.

[pbajnokl]

Alright Rayla. Let's see what I can do for you.

 

Let's first go over the argument that Revan has more knowledge than Meetra Surik.

 

Remember the war that took place a few short decades before the Mandalorian Wars? During that time, we had several Jedi with a vast resevoir of knowledge get killed by Exar Kun. Arca Jeth (known for having an immense amount of knowledge) was killed prior to the Sith War. Weaponmaster Vodo Baas was killed by Exar Kun on Coruscant. And Odan-Urr was killed by Exar Kun on Ossus. These three in particular had an immense amount of Jedi Knowledge to pass on to future generations. Couple that with the loss of the Great Library and we have a severely weakened Jedi Order.

 

Revan was said to have learned much of what the Jedi had to offer, but what it did offer was not as much as some would hope. This applies to Meetra as well, but what she has going for her is being a Force Enlightened Jedi Master. Surik has unlocked the full scope of the Light Side, giving her a greater deal of Light Side knowledge than Revan. Dark Side is another story.

 

Lightsaber skill?

 

Meetra Surik battled Sion and Traya in the heart of Malachor (a nexus of the Dark Side) and won. Sion was a Jedi hunter and nigh immortal. Not only was she debilitated by the nexus, but Sion was drawing on it (he says so himself). Surik proved herself capable of lasting long enough in a full lightsaber duel while eroding Sion's will. She can do the same to Revan.

 

I always loved this "immortal Darth Sion" thing... it makes me think what he will do without a head. Run in circles like a chicken in the core of malachore V just because he can suck there as many dark force as he wants?

[Kilikaa]

You have your work cut out officiating this debate, Aubere. I don't know if you are smart for making this battle the first and getting it over with early or kriffing insane for even having it. lol. I really wish I had more to offer, but my knowledge of these two is more limited than everyone else. I am also really glad I don't have your job. I might have to Force Choke myself lol.

 

Rayla, don't give up. It may not mean much but you have my support. Show these Revanites who is superior!

[Ventessel]

Revan was said to have learned much of what the Jedi had to offer, but what it did offer was not as much as some would hope. This applies to Meetra as well, but what she has going for her is being a Force Enlightened Jedi Master. Surik has unlocked the full scope of the Light Side, giving her a greater deal of Light Side knowledge than Revan. Dark Side is another story.

 

By that same token, Revan became a master of light side (canon ending) by the time of his confrontation with Malak, who was thriving on the power of the Star Forge and the life energies of a half dozen captive Jedi.

Lightsaber skill?

 

Meetra Surik battled Sion and Traya in the heart of Malachor (a nexus of the Dark Side) and won. Sion was a Jedi hunter and nigh immortal. Not only was she debilitated by the nexus, but Sion was drawing on it (he says so himself). Surik proved herself capable of lasting long enough in a full lightsaber duel while eroding Sion's will. She can do the same to Revan.

 

Those Jedi that Sion hunted were from this weakened, shattered Jedi Order left over following the Mandalorian Wars, and the Jedi Civil War. Furthermore, there is no indication that Sion was exceptionally skilled with a lightsaber. His immortality likely made him very careless, just as the orbalisks made Bane get sloppy with his bladework.

 

On the other hand, we know that Malak was an almost peerless duelist, and yet Revan is able to cut off his jaw just to teach him a lesson. Later, after his redemption, Revan again beats Malak down in an extended duel, where Malak refreshes himself time and again with the energies of captive Jedi before succumbing to Revan's indomitable assault.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Ventessel

[LadyKulvax]

Don't give in. It's just the Revan 'stuff' That's why I wanted to do this one first. Get it out of the way because I knew this would happen.

 

Should I have included Revan? The answer is debatable, but I felt that Revan would make for some interesting match ups.

 

I think Revan and the Exile should have been left out due to the sheer amount on interpretation that can be had around the characters.

[LadyKulvax]

Those Jedi that Sion hunted were from this weakened, shattered Jedi Order left over following the Mandalorian Wars, and the Jedi Civil War

 

He has been hunting Jedi since the Exar Kun War, when he was converted.

Edited March 18, 2013 by LadyKulvax