LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Hardly true. Dooku defeated Skywalker and Kenobi at the same time, and three years later Skywalker was able to defeat Dooku almost singlehandedly. With Nyriss we're given a clear case of two fights occurring at the same time with all parties at the peak of their abilities. It doesn't get better as far a metric goes. Please re-watch Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Dooku in Episode III, Kenobi gets owned by Dooku, then Anakin owns Dooku, later on the much more powerful Vader loses, really bad at that, to Obi-Wan. Entirely untrue. As skilled with battle precognition as the Exile is, Revan is better. Revan was considered the greatest warrior of his day, and his skills in personal combat and on the battlefield are almost without equal. The only person to ever give him trouble was Vitiate. You can gauge that how exactly? there is no definitive thing saying he was flat out better than Surik in a fight, apart from one very debatable confrontation with Nyriss. Revan has plenty of powers that can knock the Exile out. Force lightning, superior dueling skills, overwhelming telekinetic attacks, etc. He's basically got the entire playbook of the Force. If anyone is going to be using emotional manipulation, it will be Revan. The Exile is almost crippling in adoration of Revan and looks up to him as a brother-figure. She'll hardly be able to think clearly and calculatingly during the fight, while Revan is known to be unfailingly cool under pressure, making calculated sacrifices and hard choices. Revan is also amazingly good at reading his enemies, as the Echani and Mandalorians learned. He took the Echani arts to a level that awed every Echani general, while Surik merely learned these things secondhand from a castaway, the Handmaiden.[/color] Surik and Revan wouldn't be fighting if Revan hasn't gone on one of his loopey exterminate a whole race days, she was clearly ready to fight him when she was wary of him sticking his mask on. Also, did you miss the part where she can read his innermost thoughts, literally knows everything he's thinking. Revan has emotional ties to a family, the Exile doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I would never. I merely provided a similar scenario to the one you provided. Maybe not a wise move on my part, but the lesson is hidden in there.Well, by argument was based on evidence. E.g. she was defeated by powerful force storms from Nyriss, Revan has shown himself to be stronger in the Force than Nyriss, he can therefore unleash more powerful storms. But regardless, I still don't see how people can argue that Revan is not stronger than Nyriss in the Force, and therefore stronger than Meetra in the Force. Its pretty self evident in the clearest and most valid sense, I really cannot give a better example of Revan's superiority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 'A few neat tricks' she is a walking embodiment of battle meditation, she has precognition levels that are stupidly high, in other words, Revan can throw as many storms around as he likes, won't help him much when she already knows what he is going to do, she can probe his innermost thoughts, what his tactics are, make him doubt everything he knows and can slow him down considerably with her extremely advanced knowledge of force whirlwind and cloud mind, then make him totally useless by cutting his connection off. The Exile can go for hours at a time, how long can Revan last? The embodiment of battle mediation? What? She just has the ability to learn that power in-game... so does Traya, and Atton, and Bao-Dur, and ... everyone in your party. Precognition... that alerts her to how many dangers? It's acknowledged that Revan was so successful in battle partially because of his extremely advanced intuition and battle precognition, so much so that the Echani considered him to be the epitome of the fighting arts. For all the Exile's supposed skill with whirlwinds and cloud mind (again, source please?) Revan is just hands down stronger and will swat aside her attacks the way he slapped Nyriss down. Surik just isn't going to live long enough to prove Revan's mind or anything like that. Plus, Revan is clearly extremely mentally resilient. He put up three hundred years of resistance to Vitiate, and even fought back by influencing the Emperor's mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Where are you getting this stuff from?! Since when is Meetra the 'living embodiment' of battle meditation? Since when does she had 'extrmelt advanced knowledge of the Force?' Because she gets it as an ability in KOTOR? So does everyone! Not that battle meditation is going to be able to defend against a force storm, which is all round her. And like Ventessel says, Revan was extremely skilled in battle precognition also. And in the real Star Wars universe, I'm pretty sure battle meditation cannot be effectively pulled of unless you are in a state of meditation AKA not fighting for your life. And like I said before, she can only use sever force when he is on his knees. EDIT: I realise you have a big chunky book on KOTOR, but if your going to make these statements, back them up with some quotes/evidence. I take your only knowledge of the Exile comes from your own character in the game and the Revan novel, if so, I think you need to look up what the Exile was like before Drew karpyshyn came in and went NERF NERF NERF DEAD! to her character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 You can gauge that how exactly? there is no definitive thing saying he was flat out better than Surik in a fight, apart from one very debatable confrontation with Nyriss.Which you have yet to debate... P.S. Aurbere? Surely their is an ability Jedi would learn that can shield there minds from being listened too? And if I recall that required intense concentration on Meetra's part, how she would achieve that in the heat of battle (or battle meditation for that matter) I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) Which you have yet to debate... P.S. Aurbere? Surely their is an ability Jedi would learn that can shield there minds from being listened too? And if I recall that required intense concentration on Meetra's part, how she would achieve that in the heat of battle (or battle meditation for that matter) I do not know. There is Force Barrier but..that isn't really a mental thing. Edited March 18, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I take your only knowledge of the Exile comes from your own character in the game and the Revan novel, if so, I think you need to look up what the Exile was like before Drew karpyshyn came in and went NERF NERF NERF DEAD! to her character. "He could use his bare hands (raw power) to absorb and deflect extremely lethal Force lightning attacks (Very few Force-wielders in the galactic history have demonstrated similar ability).[2] Revan utterly destroyed Darth Nyriss with his raw power in this manner.[37] Prior to this confrontation, Nyriss had single-handedly subdued two powerful Force-wielders (i.e. Scourge and Meetra) simultaneously and yet she was no match for Revan.[2]" Sorry, looks like this kind of closes the debate surrounding that confrontation. Nyriss is easily more powerful that Surik AND Scourge, and yet Revan overwhelms her with "raw power". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 The embodiment of battle mediation? What? She just has the ability to learn that power in-game... so does Traya, and Atton, and Bao-Dur, and ... everyone in your party. She actively trains with Mical in the game's cutscenes to learn a very advanced form of Battle Meditation that he learned from a Mirialan, then she has an epiphony with T3-M4 where she learns how to use battle meditation on the move. Precognition... that alerts her to how many dangers? It's acknowledged that Revan was so successful in battle partially because of his extremely advanced intuition and battle precognition, so much so that the Echani considered him to be the epitome of the fighting arts. And the Exile absolutely stunned the Mandalorian on Serroco, Dxun and many other big time battles that she won from the frontlines, she was simply too good at reading the battlefield for them to overcome her lead from the front mentality. For all the Exile's supposed skill with whirlwinds and cloud mind (again, source please?) Revan is just hands down stronger and will swat aside her attacks the way he slapped Nyriss down. Surik just isn't going to live long enough to prove Revan's mind or anything like that. How many sources do you need when you have active cutscenes and the book itself to read from? So you think a veteran with years of experience fighting Mandalorians and some of the most powerful Sith Lords that ever lived is going to stand about and get swatted like a fly all damsel in distress like? I think you are severely underplaying the Exile's abilities, that's if you even know what they are. Plus, Revan is clearly extremely mentally resilient. He put up three hundred years of resistance to Vitiate, and even fought back by influencing the Emperor's mind. Something which by the way, the Exile gave him the force energy required to do and projected positive emotions onto him to carry on his mental battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbajnokl Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I take your only knowledge of the Exile comes from your own character in the game and the Revan novel, if so, I think you need to look up what the Exile was like before Drew karpyshyn came in and went NERF NERF NERF DEAD! to her character. Clearly you're talking about a game mechanic here, and if the author says a canon thing then you can't argue with that because if you start argue with it, then we can start with an other and better "who's the stronger" Luke in ep.VI or Revan Reborn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I take your only knowledge of the Exile comes from your own character in the game and the Revan novel, if so, I think you need to look up what the Exile was like before Drew karpyshyn came in and went NERF NERF NERF DEAD! to her character.Wookieepedia is my source, and it says nothing about 'epitome of battle meditation' or being 'a master of the Light Side' so you'll have to enlighten me. All I've found is a power called 'force enlightment' that bolster speed, defense valor, not exactly light side perfection. It also makes no mention of battle meditation, so I'd assume she did not have that ability. And canon is canon, you can't bring in Drew's poor skills as a writer into this debate. P.S. I'm also aware that KOTOR II, the Revan novel, and SWTOR are the only places Meetra appears in so I'd say my knowledge of Meetra is pretty sound... but again, please enlighten me rather than simply saying I'm wrong and should do my homework - that is not a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Clearly you're talking about a game mechanic here, and if the author says a canon thing then you can't argue with that because if you start argue with it, then we can start with an other and better "who's the stronger" Luke in ep.VI or Revan Reborn Not whatsoever, also Karpyshyn's own novel depicts the exile in a far different light than the resilient woman described in other works, he basically demotes her to Revan's apprentice and shows her basically snapping her ankle every time she has a fight, it was a clear way of him taking a leak on KotOR II and giving the finger to Chris Avellone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I also love how I am the only one debating FOR the Exile again, this is the single most fair versus thread I've taken part in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 P.S. Aurbere? Surely their is an ability Jedi would learn that can shield there minds from being listened too? And if I recall that required intense concentration on Meetra's part, how she would achieve that in the heat of battle (or battle meditation for that matter) I do not know. Well there was the ability Atton used that Meetra learned. And she didn't need to meditate after learning. I'm going off of memory here, but I do believe that it is just occupying the surface thoughts of the mind with meaningless thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Wookieepedia is my source, and it says nothing about 'epitome of battle meditation' or being 'a master of the Light Side' so you'll have to enlighten me. All I've found is a power called 'force enlightment' that bolster speed, defense valor, not exactly light side perfection. It also makes no mention of battle meditation, so I'd assume she did not have that ability. And canon is canon, you can't bring in Drew's poor skills as a writer into this debate. P.S. I'm also aware that KOTOR II, the Revan novel, and SWTOR are the only places Meetra appears in so I'd say my knowledge of Meetra is pretty sound... but again, please enlighten me rather than simply saying I'm wrong and should do my homework - that is not a point. The KotOR CG, no not the rewrite after WotC was bought out, but the original book that established half the backstories for characters in that time. It also gives out a list of her abilities. Furthermore to all the '*** is Force Enlightenment' it was established as what happened to a Jedi who had harnessed and unlocked fully the Light Side, to quote it on the dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) Well there was the ability Atton used that Meetra learned. And she didn't need to meditate after learning. I'm going off of memory here, but I do believe that it is just occupying the surface thoughts of the mind with meaningless thoughts. I think he was meaning for a Force Ability....but if not, then ya I guess that could be it. Also to the Force Enlightenment thing here... Force Enlightenment was a light side Force power. The most well-known Jedi who used this power frequently was Meetra Surik, who learned it after a significant conversation with Jedi Masters Vrook Lamar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell. When activated, this power took the defensive Force powers a Jedi was most skilled in, pushing them to the highest degree that the Jedi had previously mastered during his or her routine training. . The end result was an "enlightened" Jedi, having unlocked and harnessed fully the light side of the Force. Edited March 18, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 I also love how I am the only one debating FOR the Exile again, this is the single most fair versus thread I've taken part in. What about me! :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbajnokl Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Not whatsoever, also Karpyshyn's own novel depicts the exile in a far different light than the resilient woman described in other works, he basically demotes her to Revan's apprentice and shows her basically snapping her ankle every time she has a fight, it was a clear way of him taking a leak on KotOR II and giving the finger to Chris Avellone. Chris Avellone started this figth. In the original KOTOR everyone accept it that Revan was the strongest Jedi/Sith/Force user in his time and then Chris Avellone said that this is not true. I can make too stronger man then Luke Skywalker in this way... or stronger than Abeloth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 I think he was meaning for a Force Ability....but if not, then ya I guess that could be it. All Jedi are trained to some degree to block their thoughts, but I'll do some digging for an actual ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 What about me! :( I am not seeing much hard debate in favour of the Exile besides myself here, it's me and a few posts here and there vs two and sometimes four top notch debaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 All Jedi are trained to some degree to block their thoughts, but I'll do some digging for an actual ability. I couldn't find anything, but meh.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 I am not seeing much hard debate in favour of the Exile besides myself here, it's me and a few posts here and there vs two and sometimes four top notch debaters. I'll see what I can do, but I don't want to sound biased, am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Chris Avellone started this figth. In the original KOTOR everyone accept it that Revan was the strongest Jedi/Sith/Force user in his time and then Chris Avellone said that this is not true. I can make too stronger man then Luke Skywalker in this way... or stronger than Abeloth. No he didn't, what are you even talking about? I'd LOVE to hear where you wrote that, Avellone was given a very minimalist version of KotOR, told to write a story and given the lack of information he wrote his own version of a star wars story and it was KotOR II that established Revan as the might revanchist most know him as, not the first game. Only when the game was basically done was Obsidian entertainment actually allowed to play the original and two months later LucasArts forced them into releasing the game a year early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I am not seeing much hard debate in favour of the Exile besides myself here, it's me and a few posts here and there vs two and sometimes four top notch debaters. Apologizes again. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 She actively trains with Mical in the game's cutscenes to learn a very advanced form of Battle Meditation that he learned from a Mirialan, then she has an epiphony with T3-M4 where she learns how to use battle meditation on the move.Incorrect on both accounts. Mical teaches her a technique to replenish her Force resevoir and she learned moving meditation from T3-M4 which is only useful if your practicing Soresu or fixing stuff, which isn't going to be very useful do to the lack of blaster weapons and droids and sheer tenacity of Revan's attacks. The most powerful of which I'm referring to are Force storm and Force projectile storm, which he displayed at the Foundry. And the Exile absolutely stunned the Mandalorian on Serroco, Dxun and many other big time battles that she won from the frontlines, she was simply too good at reading the battlefield for them to overcome her lead from the front mentality.Revan did the same, but to a greater extent. He was heralded by Canderous Ordo as the greatest Jedi ever or something to that effect.So you think a veteran with years of experience fighting Mandalorians and some of the most powerful Sith Lords that ever lived is going to stand about and get swatted like a fly all damsel in distress like? I think you are severely underplaying the Exile's abilities, that's if you even know what they are.Like Nyriss did? And nowhere in the game does it say that Meetra is an epitome of the light side. The Jedi Masters certainly didn't see her that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I'll see what I can do, but I don't want to sound biased, am I right? Beni does it for his threads, it would be nice not to be soloing an entire side of a hot debate here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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