LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I'm not really well versed with these characters, my knowledge on them is rather limited. If you want to help me out here, the best way would be to confirm the more off-topic discussions going on here, such as sourcing other battles for things like Tutaminis, that would let me focus better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Am I really being left to debate Surik's side by myself? the other debaters have vanished.... this should be a fair contest.Yes! Your allies have abandoned you and joined the Revanites! Mwahahahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) If you want to help me out here, the best way would be to confirm the more off-topic discussions going on here, such as sourcing other battles for things like Tutaminis, that would let me focus better. I have been trying such, but that is like trying to find a needle in a haystack that is as big as 10 acres of land. No one really seems to post this information out, so am looking deeper. Edited March 18, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkondo Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Yes! Your allies have abandoned you and joined the Revanites! Mwahahahaha! Revan was always the one to fight the war of conversion after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Yes! Your allies have abandoned you and joined the Revanites! Mwahahahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Wow, this is moving along awful quick. I'm going to correct a few things that I've seen pop up. 1. Oneness is not something you can just do. It just happens. It is not controllable. 2. Assumptions are being drawn over whether or not Revan could steamroll the Trayus Academy. The is simply no. Surik was a full master of the Light Side and was still affected by the Dark Side nexus. Revan's first encounter with Malachor nearly destroyed him if not for sheer force of will. Not that this point matters in this particular debate. 3. Tutaminis does not make Revan better than Surik. Just as Yoda using Tutaminis against Sidious does not make him better (for the record, I feel that there final engagement ended in a stalemate, but Yoda couldn't keep going). Also I saw mention that Yoda never redirected lightning. Perhaps AOTC needs to be watched again. We should also consider Surik's ability to quickly pick up on the skills and lightsaber forms of others. Remember that the Jedi Masters were shocked at how quickly she learned from them just by watching. I feel that this gives her a tactical advantage over Revan in terms of lightsaber skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I have been trying such, but that is like trying to find a needle in a haystack that is as big as 10 acres of land. No one really seems to post this information out, so am looking deeper. Quite, but if I can focus more on what Surik can do compared to Revan, it would definitely help me out, I'm stretched a bit thin here and rushing replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) well, first thing I always say with Revan.... Can anyone even tell me (Canonically - not opinion) what Lightsaber form(s) he uses and what level of proficiency he has in them and if a master of multiple styles - which is his primary form/ tactics etc....??? I could probably even extend that to the Exile Without this information - I find it hard to make a good analysis of any Duel...... ... At best, he probably would have diverse knowledge of all forms and is skilled in a number of them, given what is stated. Not a master, just skilled with varying degrees. Quite, but if I can focus more on what Surik can do compared to Revan, it would definitely help me out, I'm stretched a bit thin here and rushing replies. I'll keep looking, but no promises. Edited March 18, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilikaa Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Am I really being left to debate Surik's side by myself? the other debaters have vanished.... this should be a fair contest. I agree with you 100% so far. The only reason I haven't said up till now is because I am trying to catch up on the debate. Plus I think you have already used all my arguments for Meetra, lol. I do want to add one thing... Meetra and Revan served together during the Mandalorian War. They know each other pretty well, but each has learned a lot since the Battle of Malachor V. They are both unpredictable yet familiar with each other. I believe Meetra will eventually win because she can learn on the fly and has Echani Precognition. Even if she can't predict Revan's moves, all she has to do is see something once and she knows how to use it, or counter it. As far as I know of Revan, he doesn't have that same skill level. In other words, the longer the fight goes on, the more Meetra's chances of victory improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I agree this is getting a bit too one-sided to where im just jabbing Rayla (I mean nothing by it, and I apologize if it comes out like I do.), Aurbere we need you to well mediate to make this more even. You can't force a contest to be even when. Perhaps Surik has so few supporters because she's doomed. Mediation simply means that the debate stays grounded in reason, not forcibly equalling it out. As for the sever force question, all I've found in the KotOR CG is this: "At last, Traya reveals herself as a Sith, but the Jedi Exile refuses her invitation to join the dark side. Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest disciple." (pg. 156) "However, when Kreia reveals her identity as Darth Traya, the Jedi Exile is forced to kill her mentor." (pg. 140) So Traya is clearly still powerful in the Force when using telekinesis to wield those lightsabers, which is considered a "vast" use of telekinesis. I'm really only seeing that the Exile broke their Force bond before killing Traya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 [/color] it seems Meetra must first weaken her opponent before she can 'sever force' them, else she would have simply used the ability from the word go. This I agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Am I really being left to debate Surik's side by myself? the other debaters have vanished.... this should be a fair contest. As I said - I believed this to be a matchup that could have possibly gone either way Unfortunately the Admittedly extremely biased Novel (with this part pointed out by Beni) is going to tip things in Revan favour in this debate..... Well in my books it does because Nyriss>Meetra (with Scourge helping her) Revan>Nyriss therefore Revan>Meetra. That's how I see it. This is our only Canonically direct comparisson with a common foe - that Revan fares much better against... I Am not a subcriber of ABC logic but the ease in which Nyriss takes Meetra out (and the Way Revan takes Nyriss out) - also, the way Meetra is in awe of Revan (and almost seems to have a schoolgirl crush on him) certainly does nothing to help her in this case....Of course, this is written by the Man that created Revan Don't worry - this will happen to me also when we have the Obi Wan vs Darth Maul debate I will probably be the only one - but i really do think Darth Maul has the tools to beat Obi Wan (without any plot biases) and will vote so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkondo Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Wow, this is moving along awful quick. I'm going to correct a few things that I've seen pop up. 1. Oneness is not something you can just do. It just happens. It is not controllable. 2. Assumptions are being drawn over whether or not Revan could steamroll the Trayus Academy. The is simply no. Surik was a full master of the Light Side and was still affected by the Dark Side nexus. Revan's first encounter with Malachor nearly destroyed him if not for sheer force of will. Not that this point matters in this particular debate. 3. Tutaminis does not make Revan better than Surik. Just as Yoda using Tutaminis against Sidious does not make him better (for the record, I feel that there final engagement ended in a stalemate, but Yoda couldn't keep going). Also I saw mention that Yoda never redirected lightning. Perhaps AOTC needs to be watched again. We should also consider Surik's ability to quickly pick up on the skills and lightsaber forms of others. Remember that the Jedi Masters were shocked at how quickly she learned from them just by watching. I feel that this gives her a tactical advantage over Revan in terms of lightsaber skills. Yay, mediation you have my thanks. I find saber skills is where it gets really interesting, Surik does have the tactical advantage of picking up the skills and forms of others really quickly, however Revan is known to be highly unpredictable in the way he fights given his variety of abilities and feats he uses. I find this to be a bit of a counterthesis to Meetra's quick learning, however given that we know so little of Revan's saber skills other than that he was considered a master of saber combat that ones up in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Don't worry - this will happen to me also when we have the Obi Wan vs Darth Maul debate I will probably be the only one - but i really do think Darth Maul has the tools to beat Obi Wan (without any plot biases) and will vote so Just looked at the bracket set-up and it is highly unlikely that Kenobi and Maul will face each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 1.George Lucas has said more times than I can remember that you either use the Light Side(Or simply the Force as he refers to it) OR you use the dark side. 2.My point was to counter-act the inevitable 'But Revan owned at the Star Forge' debate that is so well sourced. 3.Such A>B means A>C logic isn't very great, for example, perhaps Revan is better than Surik at using such shielding abilities, it certainly looked that way, does that mean Revan is better straight away than she is at every other flip of the coin? that is quite an absurd notion don't you agree?1. Suspicious look... if you say so. 3. I think it more shows that Revan is more powerful than Surik in the Force. For one, when talking of the Force there is no such thing as 'defensive abilities' and 'offensive abilities' as they all rely on the same thing - strength in the Force. The fact that Surik was unable to defend against Nyriss' Force lightning yet Revan was strong enough not only to absorb it but to overcome it and destroy Nyriss shows he possess greater power in the Force. Far greater. And seeing as we have no means to judge their combat abilities, that's the only edge Revan needs. I think his strength in the Force is also supported by the fact he managed to absorbed the full force of the Sith Emperor Force lightning who was immensely powerful in the Force in every respect, and he bombarded his assailants with large space rocks at the Foundry. And finally, and I know this isn't a very strong point, but BioWare seemed to always portray Revan as the more powerful. Throughout the course of KOTOR II Meetra seemed to be somewhat in Revan's shadow. In the Revan novel she seems to take the role of the 'sidekick' and Revan seems to be all the more impressive than he is (e.g. Nyriss) and then in SWTOR Revan is the one who is referred to as 'more powerful than you can possibly imagine' etc. Just saying I think the guys who made him would agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Yay, mediation you have my thanks. I find saber skills is where it gets really interesting, Surik does have the tactical advantage of picking up the skills and forms of others really quickly, however Revan is known to be highly unpredictable in the way he fights given his variety of abilities and feats he uses. I find this to be a bit of a counterthesis to Meetra's quick learning, however given that we know so little of Revan's saber skills other than that he was considered a master of saber combat that ones up in the air. There's no question that Revan's a skilled duelist, however, he is facing tough opposition here. Meetra has several tools that are a great boon to her in lightsaber combat. She has her Echani Precogntion from Brianna and her natural ability to quickly pick up on an opponent's style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I agree with you 100% so far. The only reason I haven't said up till now is because I am trying to catch up on the debate. Plus I think you have already used all my arguments for Meetra, lol. I do want to add one thing... Meetra and Revan served together during the Mandalorian War. They know each other pretty well, but each has learned a lot since the Battle of Malachor V. They are both unpredictable yet familiar with each other. I believe Meetra will eventually win because she can learn on the fly and has Echani Precognition. Even if she can't predict Revan's moves, all she has to do is see something once and she knows how to use it, or counter it. As far as I know of Revan, he doesn't have that same skill level. In other words, the longer the fight goes on, the more Meetra's chances of victory improve. Revan matches and exceeds Surik in the field of precognition. Surik simply learned a little of Echani techniques from the Handmaiden, while Revan overawed the entire Echani people with his mastery of these abilities. "Revan's originality as a battlefield commander would earn him the undying respect of both the Mandalorian and Echani warrior cultures as according to the former, Revan represented a supremely worthy foe—one that both embodied their philosophies and showed them their weaknesses.[7] The Echani, on the other hand, believed that Revan represented the epitome of what one could achieve in the arts of war, and that his skill was born out of a highly advanced battle precognition" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Just looked at the bracket set-up and it is highly unlikely that Kenobi and Maul will face each other. lol - you always manage to find a way to spoil my fun!!!!! Or you probably don't want another like the grievous/savage opress debate that will go on forever you have probably done the right thing after all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 lol - you always manage to find a way to spoil my fun!!!!! Or you probably don't want another like the grievous/savage opress debate that will go on forever you have probably done the right thing after all.... It's just how things fell I guess. I didn't really think about who would face who in future rounds. I just focused on creating close battles for the first round. And this one has, so far, exceeded my expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I demand a quote! I expect whatever has been said is very much open to interpretation. Ok after searching and searching, here. Finally he saw the truth. This truth that he, the Avatar of light , Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, The Fiercest , Most implacable , Most devastatingly Powerful Foe the Darkness had ever known... just- didn't- have it. He'd never had it. he had lost before he started . He had lost before he was born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 You can't force a contest to be even when. Perhaps Surik has so few supporters because she's doomed. Mediation simply means that the debate stays grounded in reason, not forcibly equalling it out. As for the sever force question, all I've found in the KotOR CG is this: "At last, Traya reveals herself as a Sith, but the Jedi Exile refuses her invitation to join the dark side. Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest disciple." (pg. 156) "However, when Kreia reveals her identity as Darth Traya, the Jedi Exile is forced to kill her mentor." (pg. 140) So Traya is clearly still powerful in the Force when using telekinesis to wield those lightsabers, which is considered a "vast" use of telekinesis. I'm really only seeing that the Exile broke their Force bond before killing Traya. Which one are you using? the 2006 hardback or the 2008 re-release? In-case anybody wants the quote: "..The former Jedi could feel her Sith master was just buying time now, building her willpower to overcome the seasoned General, despite reluctance, she stretched out her hand, pointed at the old woman's mind and the Sith Lord's wail confirmed the battle was won, realised she had not that she had also severed her tutor's last hand. She let loose a sigh of relief at this final end, exhausted she felt, her reliance on the force had faded, her every inch ached in pain, 'too long, too much..' she thought. As she offered the defeated betrayer her mercy, she barely saw three violet beams lunge toward her, just in time that she knocked herself from her own footing. In reaction she just managed to freeze the lightsabers in their spot, her master was beaten and she knew it, this was the last ditch and far too weak it was, she batted away the lightsabers as she walked forwards and pointed her cyan blade at the near dead woman's throat, it was over." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 3. Tutaminis does not make Revan better than Surik. Just as Yoda using Tutaminis against Sidious does not make him better (for the record, I feel that there final engagement ended in a stalemate, but Yoda couldn't keep going). Also I saw mention that Yoda never redirected lightning. Perhaps AOTC needs to be watched again. We should also consider Surik's ability to quickly pick up on the skills and lightsaber forms of others. Remember that the Jedi Masters were shocked at how quickly she learned from them just by watching. I feel that this gives her a tactical advantage over Revan in terms of lightsaber skills.3. You forget Aurbere that Yoda did not overcome Sidious with Tutaminis, if he had then yes, I would say Yoda is definitely more powerful than Sidious. But it ended in a stalemate hence why I believe they are equal. I would not say the same for Marek because the explosion killed him, it is clear that he was overwhelmed. And I say it again, if Meetra is more powerful than Revan, how is it that she couldn't absorb her lightning? Despite having Scourge as back up? Good point about Surik though, however I think Revan has the edge concerning the Force which eliminates that advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Ok after searching and searching, here. All that tells me is that Sidious broke Yoda's spirit. Yoda gave up and fled, which is a guaranteed way to lose a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 It's just how things fell I guess. I didn't really think about who would face who in future rounds. I just focused on creating close battles for the first round. And this one has, so far, exceeded my expectations. Actually, a fresh debate may be more interesting than Obi vs Maul.... This debate, I kind of had a very strong feeling - would be in Revan's favour...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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