Wanna See All of My Screenshots?

[Utopii]

Truly talented players don't have to promote themselves because the community does all the work for them.

 

/thread

Edited March 13, 2013 by Utopii

[sabbrina]

Thx blunti and ace. I try to be a decent person. With this post I was just trying to celebrate my achievement really. I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's ego or challenge anyone. Apparently this was wrong of me and people took it as me bragging, and maybe I was a little, but I definitely didn't do it in an attempt to attack anyone or say "I'm better than you". I don't think I've ever blatantly told anyone that I was better than them or that they were even a bad player. However the elitist nature of the pvp community seems to prevent most from praising others achievements and instead takes these achievements as challenges to their own egos making it so that these elitist people think they have to justify every screen shot or forum post that isn't even about them instead of admiring something that someone else is genuinely proud of.

I will admit this, I'm not an arrogant person, and this is the first time I've beaten any kind of record. It made me a little too arrogant and even though I don't think I was an ******e out of this arrogance I admit that it even annoyed me at times. Its good that I got this arrogance out of my system as I can go back to just being that relatively quiet guy who enjoys to relax and play the game rather than get involved in the community of "I'm better than you." AKA the pvp community.

 

i promised myself i wasnt going to post on this again due to it actually getting bumped, which is probably your intent. But are you actually listening to yourself type? You are constantly repeating yourself and looking for a pat on the back. *Good job boy, Now fetch*. You are INDEED an arrogant person, and an elitist jerk. anyone who has spent 10 minutes in your vent would know just how elitist your guild is, to the point of sickening to think that the goals in this game are your highest achievements in life just is mind blowing. We would all like recognition for our achievements, but to post something that was falsified and tampered with is just asking for comments like mine. Congrats on your HPS, but dude check your ego at the login screen.

[Harglerode]

Assuming that bubbles can be maintained on 4 people (any more is a little force exhaustive and any less is just being lazy), bubble sage provides for more possible stuns leading to escape mechanisms or splash-stuns on their healers to assist with focus fire. It also provides for a definite immobilize, either stalling or just assisting to control the enemy team. Salvation can be useful, but even having people group up within an 8 meter range can be detrimental if the team you are fighting is smart (or not brain-dead) about aoe. It gives other healers on your team more time to heal, as well as a free stun for escape.

Arguing the group utility of a salv sage over a bubble sage is even harder, considering that each bubble bypasses the lockout placed on an individual player

 

How does this vailidate a salv healer being a liability?

Edited March 13, 2013 by Harglerode

[OmniParadox]

i promised myself i wasnt going to post on this again due to it actually getting bumped, which is probably your intent. But are you actually listening to yourself type? You are constantly repeating yourself and looking for a pat on the back. *Good job boy, Now fetch*. You are INDEED an arrogant person, and an elitist jerk. anyone who has spent 10 minutes in your vent would know just how elitist your guild is, to the point of sickening to think that the goals in this game are your highest achievements in life just is mind blowing. We would all like recognition for our achievements, but to post something that was falsified and tampered with is just asking for comments like mine. Congrats on your HPS, but dude check your ego at the login screen.

 

Read the first few words and stopped... Roxxy, I'm sorry that I upset you once. This petty grudge of yours is hardly worth acknowledging and I wish you would stop asserting yourself into every conversation I'm having just to remind me that you don't like me. I get it, and I don't really care at this point.

 

Continuing on to the mostly civil conversation I was having with Vas. I honestly think in a team of perfect players the salvation sage would be the most beneficial. With a team that was coordinated enough to use ranged to pop bubbles have no one stack for smash (or bubble stun) and ultimately counter the two broken specs without using a broken spec themselves, a salvation sage (not that they would need to use salvation as no one is really stacked, I think people forget that the difference between salvation and bubble isn't just the aoe) would put out the most heals and be the most beneficial. However, I don't think that this team exists and I would be very impressed if it did. (really I wouldn't know because I'm not involved in the ranked community but I assume the top teams use broken specs) With that being said, in most lesser teams or playing against a lesser team maybe it is more beneficial to use bubble stun as a crutch. In this pvp community I believe the latter scenario is the case rather than most people being able to play this easy game almost to near perfection, which I think is a huge miscalculation (even in the best of ranked teams). So in the current state of pvp, where no one plays so perfectly that they can easily counter the two broken specs of the game, you probably would be right in some or maybe even more than half of circumstances (as pvp is purely circumstantial) that the version of myself that could probably play bubble stun pretty well (better than any bad that could pull it off) would be more beneficial to the group as other teams aren't very good at countering it and any team I'm on most likely won't be able to counter smashers without it. However, as I have often been able to heal just fine and be more beneficial than a bubble stun any time the other team doesn't stack or doesn't have too many smasher or melee it comes down to player choice. As you said yourself the output between the two specs is too variable to determine which suggests that the only thing left is player choice.

 

Also, just so no one misunderstands, I don't think that people who play broken specs are bad. Some of the best pvpers on the server use these specs, and I don't respect them less for it. My argument is just based on the fact that most bad players could probably pull these specs off (maybe not to the caliber of better player), and a team of perfect players could counter these specs without actually using them.

[Carter_Mathis]

How does this vailidate a salv healer being a liability?

 

It lacks survivability as the squishiest healer in the game with (due to it's spec) the least amount of escape mechanics. Put two good dps on it and watch them try to cast any ability at all, or move more than a meter before dying. Two watchmen sentinels could keep every single ability that they have on cooldown just by coordinating interrupts and leaps. A class that has high output (though I'm not a fan of a stationary aoe hot) but takes little advantage of potential defense mechanics is a liablity. Hence, full salv sages aren't picked over bubble sages in ranked (e.g. competitive battles)

Any other obvious questions needing answers?

[OmniParadox]

It lacks survivability as the squishiest healer in the game with (due to it's spec) the least amount of escape mechanics. Put two good dps on it and watch them try to cast any ability at all, or move more than a meter before dying. Two watchmen sentinels could keep every single ability that they have on cooldown just by coordinating interrupts and leaps. A class that has high output (though I'm not a fan of a stationary aoe hot) but takes little advantage of potential defense mechanics is a liablity. Hence, full salv sages aren't picked over bubble sages in ranked (e.g. competitive battles)

Any other obvious questions needing answers?

 

I still feel like in this scenario the sage you are sicking two good dps on is just staring at you blankly while you wail on it. I'm sure you have probably played against plenty of sages that are so nice as to do this for you, but I still feel like this argument is invalid in the case of actual human interaction. Thats what kiting is for and even though sages don't have many defensive cool downs they are arguably the best class for kiting. I love melee as all I have to do is get away from them before they can't hit me anymore. And ranged is even better, because you just duck your head behind a corner and they can't shoot you. I'm sorry you apparently haven't encountered many good sages.

[Carter_Mathis]

Loonnnngg Post

 

It would be near impossible to either (a) Avoid getting your teams melee stunned by broken bubbles (5m aoe stun) if you want to put an appropriate amount of pressure on the other team or (b) Kill anyone while having your melee stand back because you don't want them to get stunned. I've always argued that avoiding popping a bubble on one person isn't that hard as a melee, but staying out of 5m of any person taking damage is next to impossible while maintaining any form of damage.

Also, I said that the output of the two specs are similar, I did not say that the defensive capabilities of a bubble sage make it more desirable. While a salvation may heal as much damage as a burst bubble prevents, the stun allows for your teammate to hit the enemy without the enemy being able to pop any defensive cooldowns (except Focused Defense). With the exception of salv, the only things lost are 4% bonus healing and 2% crit chance, so no, we aren't underestimating the difference salv and bubble.

[Carter_Mathis]

I still feel like in this scenario the sage you are sicking two good dps on is just staring at you blankly while you wail on it. I'm sure you have probably played against plenty of sages that are so nice as to do this for you, but I still feel like this argument is invalid in the case of actual human interaction. Thats what kiting is for and even though sages don't have many defensive cool downs they are arguably the best class for kiting. I love melee as all I have to do is get away from them before they can't hit me anymore. And ranged is even better, because you just duck your head behind a corner and they can't shoot you. I'm sorry you apparently haven't encountered many good sages.

 

You can't move while you are immobilized or stunned. If you want to move while immobilized you can (a) use Force Speed (on a 20 sec cd) or (b) use cc break (2 min cd). If you want to move while stunned you can pop your cc break (2 min cooldown). While I am not factoring in your fighting-spirit-super-saiyan-powerup, do you have any other method to move yourself? And, I won't put myself in that situation doesn't count because I might as well say, my scoundrel will never take damage because I believe in the heart of the cards!

[Harglerode]

It lacks survivability as the squishiest healer in the game with (due to it's spec) the least amount of escape mechanics. Put two good dps on it and watch them try to cast any ability at all, or move more than a meter before dying. Two watchmen sentinels could keep every single ability that they have on cooldown just by coordinating interrupts and leaps. A class that has high output (though I'm not a fan of a stationary aoe hot) but takes little advantage of potential defense mechanics is a liablity. Hence, full salv sages aren't picked over bubble sages in ranked (e.g. competitive battles)

Any other obvious questions needing answers?

 

Where as the questions are obvious, I'm asking them as simply as I can, it seems that the answers are not so much. Only asked ( 2 or 3 times) for you to validate your argument that a salv healer was a liability in a team enviroment. To which you now respond with a 2 vs 1 scenerio as your winning statement. Im guessing this means salv healers are the only healers lacking the ability to solo win against 2 good dps? Just have a hard time understanding, everytime you attempt to validate your claim of a salv healer being a liability, why do you always use scenerios where the salv healer is alone.

 

You may come back with another "Why a bubblestun is more useful answer", but I dont think you are going to back up your claim of a salv healer being a liability with any actual facts from a group setting. A shame really, I was really looking forward to hearing what you had to say on that subject.

 

Side note: High output yet squishy, doesnt that just about rule out most every AC in the game?

[OmniParadox]

It would be near impossible to either (a) Avoid getting your teams melee stunned by broken bubbles (5m aoe stun) if you want to put an appropriate amount of pressure on the other team or (b) Kill anyone while having your melee stand back because you don't want them to get stunned. I've always argued that avoiding popping a bubble on one person isn't that hard as a melee, but staying out of 5m of any person taking damage is next to impossible while maintaining any form of damage.

Also, I said that the output of the two specs are similar, I did not say that the defensive capabilities of a bubble sage make it more desirable. While a salvation may heal as much damage as a burst bubble prevents, the stun allows for your teammate to hit the enemy without the enemy being able to pop any defensive cooldowns (except Focused Defense). With the exception of salv, the only things lost are 4% bonus healing and 2% crit chance, so no, we aren't underestimating the difference salv and bubble.

 

According to you its not terribly hard to shut down a sage completely. Why not have ranged pop the bubble that sage has on itself, melee jump in and single target him down, and then continue on to focus down other players having ranged pop any left over bubbles until bubblez returns only to shut him/her down again? I don't think a heavy melee team is the way to go anyway. If your perfect player team implemented this your great bubble stun spec would be way less valuable. Also, I said maybe it is more beneficial against baddies or a heavy melee team composition. No where have I said salvation healing is better all the time in every case ever. I just don't think bubble stun is necessary because its broken and a good enough team wouldn't need it. I just don't like your argument that bubble stun is always better and there's not even a choice as to why. Also, in your perfect theorycraft scenarios that 4% and 2% would yield more healing no?

 

p.s. Soul is making very good points too. The conversation is getting sidetracked and you really haven't backed up your statement that salv healers are just liabilities.

Edited March 13, 2013 by OmniParadox

[Harglerode]

Truly talented players don't have to promote themselves because the community does all the work for them.

 

/thread

 

Which community is that?

[Carter_Mathis]

Where as the questions are obvious, I'm asking them as simply as I can, it seems that the answers are not so much. Only asked ( 2 or 3 times) for you to validate your argument that a salv healer was a liability in a team enviroment. To which you now respond with a 2 vs 1 scenerio as your winning statement. Im guessing this means salv healers are the only healers lacking the ability to solo win against 2 good dps? Just have a hard time understanding, everytime you attempt to validate your claim of a salv healer being a liability, why do you always use scenerios where the salv healer is alone.

 

You may come back with another "Why a bubblestun is more useful answer", but I dont think you are going to back up your claim of a salv healer being a liability with any actual facts from a group setting. A shame really, I was really looking forward to hearing what you had to say on that subject.

 

Side note: High output yet squishy, doesnt that just about rule out most every AC in the game?

 

High output, not squishy: Infiltration sin, any sentinel, any slinger (shy of dirty fighting)

You asked for a group setting, and 2 dps on 1 healer seems pretty standard, with the healer who isn't currently guarded needing to stay alive until the tank can rotate the guard/taunts over back to him (at which point the other healer stays alive on their own for a bit). They are a liability because they don't have anything necessary to survive while providing heals. The double watchmen shows just how bad the situation can get.

Additionally, yes, it seems fair to compare what a sage could have and doesn't when speaking about liabilities, since being a liability means that you aren't playing a class to it's potential.

Anything else dumb you want to get off your chest?

[Carter_Mathis]

According to you its not terribly hard to shut down a sage completely. Why not have ranged pop the bubble that sage has on itself, melee jump in and single target him down, and then continue on to focus down other players having ranged pop any left over bubbles until bubblez returns only to shut him/her down again? I don't think a heavy melee team is the way to go anyway. If your perfect player team implemented this your great bubble stun spec would be way less valuable. Also, I said maybe it is more beneficial against baddies or a heavy melee team composition. No where have I said salvation healing is better all the time in every case ever. I just don't think bubble stun is necessary because its broken and a good enough team wouldn't need it. I just don't like your argument that bubble stun is always better and there's not even a choice as to why. Also, in your perfect theorycraft scenarios that 4% and 2% would yield more healing no?

 

While ranged does lower the use of bubbles, how do you argue that a salv sage would survive a similar encounter, since the other team doesn't have to worry about bubble stun and aren't rooted for 5 seconds after being knocked back? The ranged shouldn't be close enough to finish off a sage in any map in this game and the melee will be rooted in enemy lines, whereas your team just has a sage in more trouble. And no, the 2% accuracy, 2% crit chance, and 4% bonus healing do not make up for the difference between having a bubble stun, knockback root, and telekinetic effusion vs salv.

Tip: when arguing, do not try to bring up survivability when your going for the squishy spec

[Harglerode]

i promised myself i wasnt going to post on this again due to it actually getting bumped, which is probably your intent. But are you actually listening to yourself type? You are constantly repeating yourself and looking for a pat on the back. *Good job boy, Now fetch*. You are INDEED an arrogant person, and an elitist jerk. anyone who has spent 10 minutes in your vent would know just how elitist your guild is, to the point of sickening to think that the goals in this game are your highest achievements in life just is mind blowing. We would all like recognition for our achievements, but to post something that was falsified and tampered with is just asking for comments like mine. Congrats on your HPS, but dude check your ego at the login screen.

 

I totally missed something... What was falsified and tampered with? The HPS record?

Not going to defend the reason this post started, but the actual subject matter changed about 5 pages ago.

One last comment here, there may be major differences that Im just not seeing, but Cates posting his videos was met with a much different response. Devil's naked duel video was met with a much different response. Just saying, it's not like self bragging is something new here.

[Harglerode]

High output, not squishy: Infiltration sin, any sentinel, any slinger (shy of dirty fighting)

You asked for a group setting, and 2 dps on 1 healer seems pretty standard, with the healer who isn't currently guarded needing to stay alive until the tank can rotate the guard/taunts over back to him (at which point the other healer stays alive on their own for a bit). They are a liability because they don't have anything necessary to survive while providing heals. The double watchmen shows just how bad the situation can get.

Additionally, yes, it seems fair to compare what a sage could have and doesn't when speaking about liabilities, since being a liability means that you aren't playing a class to it's potential.

Anything else dumb you want to get off your chest?

 

Well, how long are we talking about here, for the tank to get back while I stand in place confused? 5 sec, 10 sec, a few mins? Nevermind tho, seems as though your responses are getting more insult based as we go along. I have no desire to further irritate you with my less than intelligent questions. Good Day Sir.

[OmniParadox]

While ranged does lower the use of bubbles, how do you argue that a salv sage would survive a similar encounter, since the other team doesn't have to worry about bubble stun and aren't rooted for 5 seconds after being knocked back? The ranged shouldn't be close enough to finish off a sage in any map in this game and the melee will be rooted in enemy lines, whereas your team just has a sage in more trouble. And no, the 2% accuracy, 2% crit chance, and 4% bonus healing do not make up for the difference between having a bubble stun, knockback root, and telekinetic effusion vs salv.

Tip: (edited) something completely unrelated to what I said

 

I didn't argue that a salv healer would fair better against this strategy. You said, "oh it can't be done" and I merely replied in a scenario in which it could. In any case, I'm tired of trading scenarios with you as it is clearly pointless. As I said before, no one can be wrong ever, so if I don't stop this now I'm afraid we will continue to talk in circles. Not to mention how difficult it is argue with someone who is so confident about themself that they actually use absolutes in purely hypothetical scenarios. You think salv healers are a liability, I don't. Agree to disagree.

 

Also, I'm not really interested in conversations where the other person starts resulting in personal attacks and sarcastic remarks. So I think now is a good time to go ahead and leave the conversation. I'm sure you'll be like most and take it as some kind of victory that I'm choosing to discontinue my part of the conversation and I encourage to hold on to your wins. In any case, some of this conversation was actually constructive, the rest was just tiring.

 

Good talking to ya.

[Harglerode]

It would be near impossible to either (a) Avoid getting your teams melee stunned by broken bubbles (5m aoe stun) if you want to put an appropriate amount of pressure on the other team or (b) Kill anyone while having your melee stand back because you don't want them to get stunned. I've always argued that avoiding popping a bubble on one person isn't that hard as a melee, but staying out of 5m of any person taking damage is next to impossible while maintaining any form of damage.

Also, I said that the output of the two specs are similar, I did not say that the defensive capabilities of a bubble sage make it more desirable. While a salvation may heal as much damage as a burst bubble prevents, the stun allows for your teammate to hit the enemy without the enemy being able to pop any defensive cooldowns (except Focused Defense). With the exception of salv, the only things lost are 4% bonus healing and 2% crit chance, so no, we aren't underestimating the difference salv and bubble.

 

Just to FYI, it's a 6% bonus.

[Carter_Mathis]

Well, how long are we talking about here, for the tank to get back while I stand in place confused? 5 sec, 10 sec, a few mins? Nevermind tho, seems as though your responses are getting more insult based as we go along. I have no desire to further irritate you with my less than intelligent questions. Good Day Sir.

 

One healer uses evasive mechanics or defensive cooldowns to stay alive against one or more dps while the tank guars a healer who is just healing through dps or cross healing. When the unguarded healer's cooldowns wear out and their health drops to about 70% the tank switches the guard to the other healer, at which point the previously guarded healer begins using cooldowns. Reaction time for switching guard should be the length of the gcd. And yes, I get annoyed when people don't use any critical thinking skills and just kinda do/say stuff.

[ace_boogie]

I totally missed something... What was falsified and tampered with? The HPS record?

Not going to defend the reason this post started, but the actual subject matter changed about 5 pages ago.

One last comment here, there may be major differences that Im just not seeing, but Cates posting his videos was met with a much different response. Devil's naked duel video was met with a much different response. Just saying, it's not like self bragging is something new here.

 

If you'll notice... Everyone who seems to have a problem with this either was or is a healer lol.

[Carter_Mathis]

If you'll notice... Everyone who seems to have a problem with this either was or is a healer lol.

 

I would like to make clear that I actually support this. It would be a huge lie to say that I don't enjoy poking fun at people or bringing up past successes (though my canvas is late night imp fleet with Barbs and his is youtube). Also, 1.6k hps is quite outstanding and a wz I definitely would've enjoyed watching

[OmniParadox]

I would like to make clear that I actually support this. It would be a huge lie to say that I don't enjoy poking fun at people or bringing up past successes (though my canvas is late night imp fleet with Barbs and his is youtube). Also, 1.6k hps is quite outstanding and a wz I definitely would've enjoyed watching

 

Thank you very much Vas. The reason why I originally made this post is because I was so frustrated I didn't record it. Aaaand I hate to point it out as I'm sure a lot of people will be like "oh he's just bragging again" but I wish you would round up. 1690 is pretty close to 1.7k. This entire forum post would be greatly different if I had recorded it, and I regret not doing so.