A Shadows Force Lift [PVE]

[KingpinDragon]

I'm having a hard time finding a use for the ability Force Lift, I mean imo it looks awesome at least. It heals and stuns your enemy for 8 secs. In most cases the enemies that can be "lifted" are defeated in 8 secs anyway, not to mention the 2 sec cast time (Infiltration and Kinetic specs [soon Balance I think]). I believe I use Turmult more than force lift in battle if you catch what I'm throwing.

In PvP it's perfectly fine, so this isn't about PvP.

 

So my question is for those who don't have the insta-cast. Do you you use Force Lift or is just there to look pretty? Also what situations do you use it (PVE only.) Thanks!

Edited March 9, 2013 by KingpinDragon

[Kitru]

Do you you use Force Lift or is just there to look pretty? Also what situations do you use it (PVE only.) Thanks!

 

Force Lift is there because it's a class ability for Consulars: Sages find it useful because they have a passive ability that makes it a true CC, but Shadows (even those with Containment) don't really get much use out of it because it retains its pitiful 8 sec duration regardless of what you do. Much like Double Strike and Saber Throw for Sages, it only really remains as an artefactual capability that would've been utilized had you chosen a different AC.

 

That's not to say you'll never find a time to use it. When you're soloing a heroic mission, sometimes you need that 8 seconds of CC on one of the targets at the start of the fight to ease up the load before the real cluster-fluffle begins. Other times, when a normal CC breaks in an ops for whatever reason, it's important to get *any* CC on the target least that newly broken target starts chewing through the ranks (Bombardiers and Cannoneers in EC are often guilty of this).

 

It's not "useless"; it's just not really useful. And it shouldn't be: as Shadows we get a stealth CC amongst the rest of the goodies we get as part of being a stealth AC. We don't really *need* Force Lift to be perfectly functional contributors.

[SirGusto]

A very situational ability. When i was first leveling my shadow, the game got super hard around lvl 40 as infil. I found i needed to mez and lift alot more targets to keep from being mobbed, just to try to live a lil longer. In pvp, I never use it unless i have the instal lift spec.

 

With an insta lift spec, you become the ultimate ninja capper. Mez, cap, he breaks it, well oh, i'll just lift him here, run out of LOS, and bam, mine

[slafko]

Force Lift does not have a place on my skillbar. Not even in PvP. To be honest, this thread made me think of that ability for the first time in a year.

[KeyboardNinja]

I use Force Lift to cover mistakes and buy the DPS time to CC something. The cast time is annoying, but sometimes worth it. At launch, the most consistent use was in stunning the techs who were healing the Hunter Creeper droid in KP (yay AoE-dependent DPS specs). 8 seconds is plenty of time in that case. I will also use it in large trash pulls when an add that *should* have been CC'd is roaming free (e.g. facepull or tab-target mistake). Force Stun -> Force Lift is a pretty effective way to buy a DPS or healer 10 seconds to get their CC off.

 

I have only ever used Force Lift in three boss fights: Bonethrasher (buying CC time for the manka cats), Fabricator (buying DPS delay time on the stun droids) and EC Kephess (buying CC time for a spurious Baradium Bomber while we setup a walker burn).

 

It's a tool that's in my toolbox, and I think every shadow tank should be aware of how and when to use it. However, it really isn't something that I use *all that* that frequently. It sits on Ctrl-4, which is obviously not the easiest keybind to hit. The only ability that I actually use which is on a *less* accessible keybind is Tumult (which I keep just for the Fabricator stun droids).

 

It would *really* be nice if shadow tanks had an instant in-combat mez, similar to Awe or the-aoe-thing-that-vanguards-have (darn you torhead). We have so many other utilities though that I think the lack of an instant in-combat mez is a fairly decent balance decision.

Edited March 7, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[slafko]

I see no reason for a shadow tank to use a 3 second casting, 8 second lasting CC. if you're worried about some stray mobs, use Force Pull and Spinning kick. Throw in Project for good measure and the mob will stick to you like glue. If you want to keep the mob down, apply Stun at the end of Kick. That's like three Shadow Strike's right there.

 

Not to mention how awesome the Pull-Kick combination looks.

Edited March 8, 2013 by slafko

[Kitru]

I see no reason for a shadow tank to use a 3 second casting, 8 second lasting CC.

 

It's a 2 sec cast, not a 3 sec cast.

 

if you're worried about some stray mobs, use Force Pull and Spinning kick. Throw in Project for good measure and the mob will stick to you like glue. If you want to keep the mob down, apply Stun at the end of Kick. That's like three Shadow Strike's right there.

 

First off, sometimes it's more important that the target not be able to act rather than ensuring that it's attacking you, which is why your comment about Project has little to no real reason to be there. We're talking about CC here, not aggro.

 

Secondly, if the **** hits the fan, devoting 3 GCDs (Pull>Kick>Stun) to locking down a target for 5.5 seconds is substantially different from devoting a 2 sec cast to locking down a target for 8 seconds, which is what Force Lift is good for, not to mention that you're behaving as if all of those tools are *always* going to be off GCD when you need them. Most of time, I keep Force Pull on CD on trash simply because I like to actually position enemy groups to maximize AoE damage rather than leaving the multitudinous stragglers standing around in every direction.

[slafko]

It's a 2 sec cast, not a 3 sec cast.

The point is that even one second is too much. But you already knew that.

 

If the Consular can pick up a sizeable chunk of debris, a really big rock or even a droid in an instant and throw it at my enemy's face, there's really no reason against instantly picking up a mob and leaving it in the air. After all "Size matters not", right?

 

First off, sometimes it's more important that the target not be able to act rather than ensuring that it's attacking you, which is why your comment about Project has little to no real reason to be there. We're talking about CC here, not aggro.

Taking into consideration that you're a tank - a target susceptible to CC does not make much difference if it's attacking you or floating in the air for a few seconds. You're better off picking up averything on yourself and positioning them for AoE than wasting two seconds to neutralize a rather weak mob for 8 seconds.

 

Secondly, if the **** hits the fan, devoting 3 GCDs (Pull>Kick>Stun) to locking down a target for 5.5 seconds is substantially different from devoting a 2 sec cast to locking down a target for 8 seconds, which is what Force Lift is good for, not to mention that you're behaving as if all of those tools are *always* going to be off GCD when you need them. Most of time, I keep Force Pull on CD on trash simply because I like to actually position enemy groups to maximize AoE damage rather than leaving the multitudinous stragglers standing around in every direction.

Those tools will always be available to me when I need them. That's the main reason I'm behaving like they are.

 

 

In conclusion: A 2 sec cast for an 8 second stun on a meager mob is not really worth it. If it were instant, then yes. If it were 2 sec and lasted at least 30 seconds, then yes again. As it is now - it's practically useless.

 

i haven't used that skill in over a year and never saw a situation where I might need it. But then again, I don't tank with the speed of a chess player.

Edited March 8, 2013 by slafko

[Kitru]

Taking into consideration that you're a tank - a target susceptible to CC does not make much difference if it's attacking you or floating in the air for a few seconds. You're better off picking up averything on yourself and positioning them for AoE than wasting two seconds to neutralize a rather weak mob for 8 seconds.

 

You're operating under the assumption that the target you need to CC with Force Lift needs to be CCd purely because of the damage it deals or because it's a standard/elite mob. I've used Force Lift on a Rak Medic in HM LI because of that friggin' healing (especially the last trash pack with 2 Medics). I've also used it on free Cannoneers and Bombardiers during EC trash. Both of those enemies are not guys you want to just get aggro on and otherwise ignore: the Medics' healing is well and truly disgusting and will often be impossible to heal through unless you're chain stunning them; the Cannoneers and Bombardiers in EC will start dropping massive damage on the entire raid with that friggin' Mortar Volley. If either of those targets isn't getting focus targeted by DPS (whether because there's other targets or because people just aren't paying attention), getting aggro isn't going to be particularly useful. Force Lift, on the other hand, *will* buy you a nice 8 second window to clean things up.

 

Those tools will always be available to me when I need them. That's the main reason I'm behaving like they are.

 

The entire point of the discussion is that Force Lift is useful when the fecal matter decides to collide with the wind generation device. It's all about edge cases and the only way you'll always have every tool available to you during an edge case is if you never use it otherwise. If you use any of those abilities in *any* other case, you can't assume you're going to have them up in the same case as Force Lift.

 

i haven't used that skill in over a year and never saw a situation where I might need it. But then again, I don't tank with the speed of a chess player.

 

If you've been playing for a year and haven't found a situation in which it would be useful, you're simply not paying attention unless you're only ever running content with a massive cluster of CC capable classes that all pay more attention than you happen to. As to playing at the speed of a chess player, anyone that does know how to use Force Lift is actually playing a faster game than you are. The only reason you don't seem to think it has any use is because you simply aren't paying enough attention to see when it *is* useful, regardless of how you seem to denigrate anyone that seems to have an opinion that dissents from yours (it also means you've never seen anyone play speed chess).

[slafko]

You're operating under the assumption that the target you need to CC with Force Lift needs to be CCd purely because of the damage it deals or because it's a standard/elite mob.

Just because you've managed to assume something does not mean that it's true.

 

The entire point of the discussion is that Force Lift is useful when the fecal matter decides to collide with the wind generation device. It's all about edge cases and the only way you'll always have every tool available to you during an edge case is if you never use it otherwise. If you use any of those abilities in *any* other case, you can't assume you're going to have them up in the same case as Force Lift.

If and when those edge cases happen, I need to react fast. Fast as in "not wasting my time watching the castbar for two seconds".

 

If you've been playing for a year and haven't found a situation in which it would be useful, you're simply not paying attention unless you're only ever running content with a massive cluster of CC capable classes that all pay more attention than you happen to.

Are you an honorary citizen of Assumptionland?

 

As to playing at the speed of a chess player, anyone that does know how to use Force Lift is actually playing a faster game than you are.

I sincerely doubt that.

A recent thread showed that I play at a pace not acceptable to the majority of people here.

 

The only reason you don't seem to think it has any use is because you simply aren't paying enough attention to see when it *is* useful, regardless of how you seem to denigrate anyone that seems to have an opinion that dissents from yours (it also means you've never seen anyone play speed chess).

It's really funny seeing you accusing me for the thing you're doing in your every post.

 

And a nice assumption about the chess there. Very nice indeed. Please disregard my comment about being an honorary citizen of Assumptionland. It is clear to me you're actually their ambassador.

[ZeroPlus]

Going waaaaay off-topic here, but:

... and Saber Throw for Sages, ...

 

I'm guessing it's a typo and you meant Saber STRIKE but I would love it if my Sage had a "Saber Throw"! What better way to finish off those pesky mobs that have 15 health?

[Kitru]

If and when those edge cases happen, I need to react fast. Fast as in "not wasting my time watching the castbar for two seconds".

 

How is watching a cast bar for 2 seconds appreciably different from the 1.5 sec GCD you're playing with anyways? Hell, you're a Shadow tank: if you're not a complete idiot, you're spending 20-25% of your total time watching TkT channel. You're acting as if a 2 sec cast somehow automatically means that the speed at which the game is played is slowed down to a crawl. If anything, the fact that it's a 2 sec cast means that, in order to actually *use* it effectively, you need to process input at a speed other than "immediate gratification".

[KeyboardNinja]

If and when those edge cases happen, I need to react fast. Fast as in "not wasting my time watching the castbar for two seconds".

 

Stun -> Lift. It's exactly 0.5s longer than your Kick -> Stun combo (give or take pushback) and gives you 8 whole seconds to deal with the problem.

 

The fact that you're refusing to acknowledge the utility of a skill does not demonstrate your uberness as a player. If anything, it demonstrates your unwillingness to learn and improve, as well as your lack of imagination in applying the tools at your disposal. Kitru and I have both given valid and useful applications of Force Lift based on our (significant) experience tanking the hardest content in the game. You have…mostly just insulted people who disagree with you.

[slafko]

How is watching a cast bar for 2 seconds appreciably different from the 1.5 sec GCD you're playing with anyways?

 

Stun -> Lift. It's exactly 0.5s longer than your Kick -> Stun combo (give or take pushback) and gives you 8 whole seconds to deal with the problem.

 

That's half a second right there.

But hey, I came from a game where 1/4 of a second decided whether people live or die.

 

The fact that you're refusing to acknowledge the utility of a skill does not demonstrate your uberness as a player. If anything, it demonstrates your unwillingness to learn and improve, as well as your lack of imagination in applying the tools at your disposal. Kitru and I have both given valid and useful applications of Force Lift based on our (significant) experience tanking the hardest content in the game. You have…mostly just insulted people who disagree with you.

 

I have given you both valid points against using Force Lift based on my (significant) tanking the hardest content in the game. You have responded by teaming up in an attempt to shut me up. I get it, I really do. You guys have had me on your list ever since I've dared to say that tanking with a shadow wasn't nearly as hard as you've been suggesting and telling people.

 

And yes, I am extremely unwilling to "learn and improve" by adopting strategies that diminish my performance.

Edited March 12, 2013 by slafko

[ArchArcher]

Funny that this topic was here, talked about force lift with my guild mate yesterday how useless it was most of the time

 

I find it more useful on PvP, CC a sniper so leapers can get to him or shuting down a healer with it is nice. I'm playing on kinetic combat spec. And the 30m range on it is awesome. However that 2 sec cast bar can turn into 5 sec when you're under attack. So in PvE (if you¨re a tank) I find it useless. It came in handy on Lost Island tier 2 on the medics when someone broke the first CC, but other than that I can only notice that it has really few times when it really came in handy.

 

If I could as a tank spec insta cast it or be immune to pushback, I'm sure it would see more action in both PvE & PvP. But considering how much mobility & utility I have as a tank shadow I'm not hoping any tweaks for the force lift, and with the phase walk coming in I can only smile.

[Atramar]

pve - sucks

pvp - awesome.

 

/thread

[KingpinDragon]

I greatly appreciate the input from you all. I guess my inferences about Force Lift were indeed correct; judging from all the posts. It's a shame that this ability may sit dormant come 2.0; when it has such good potential in PvE.

 

pve - sucks

pvp - awesome.

 

/thread

 

I would be very thankful if you could post something productive. At a bare minimum post something that shows you do not have a negative IQ. Anything requiring an IQ above 20 will suffice, as I am not expecting a miracle.

[slafko]

It came in handy on Lost Island tier 2 on the medics when someone broke the first CC, ...

 

Bah, not even then. Interrupt first spamheal, Spinning Kick the second, Force Stun the third if he lives that long.

[feliix]

Force lift can be a great way to control aggro in some pve situations

when combined with typical line of sight trickery.

 

A shadow tank can initiate a bogus cc, which grabs initial aggro.

As the aggro'd group closes, real cc can be applied, non-cc'd

enemies continue on to the shadow tank.

 

Since you used LOS after initial aggro, the CC is safe from AOE.

 

Pretty specific to pve, but it's one of the perks for a pve shadow.

 

Late edit for increased clarity:

For the purposes of this thread, the shadow tanks lift is considered "bogus",

keeping in line with earlier ideas expressed in this thread.

 

The shadow tanks "bogus" lift initiates aggro, the shadow tank being out of

line of sight "pulls" the now aggro'd group. "Real cc", would be applied by

other members of the shadow tanks group as the aggro'd pack closes

(e.g., sage lift, smuggler slice, commando conc. round). For a tough pack

you can even get other pre combat cc's in prior to the shadow lift for an even

more controlled situation.

Edited March 18, 2013 by feliix
Clarification

[KingpinDragon]

Force Lift is there because it's a class ability for Consulars... Much like Double Strike and Saber Throw for Sages, it only really remains as an artifactual capability that would've been utilized had you chosen a different AC.

 

That's not to say you'll never find a time to use it. When you're soloing a heroic mission, sometimes you need that 8 seconds of CC on one of the targets...

It's not "useless"; it's just not really useful. And it shouldn't be: as Shadows we get a stealth CC amongst the rest of the goodies we get as part of being a stealth AC. We don't really *need* Force Lift to be perfectly functional contributors.

 

I believe your insight hits it best. All classes get new abilities come 2.0 but in some cases our current abilities; we do not find use for could use some work. Just a thought.

[slafko]

A shadow tank can initiate a bogus cc, which grabs initial aggro.

As the aggro'd group closes, real cc can be applied, non-cc'd

enemies continue on to the shadow tank.

 

You do realise that a Shadow cannot use his real CC once the mobs enter combat and that they enter combat the moment you Lift one of their friends, right?

 

As for intial aggro, you're far better off simply Force Speeding into the mob and nuking them with Slow Time and Force Breach. In extremely rare situations where you want to LoS a group of mobs, you can engage them from range by using Force Pull or your single taunt. Hell, you can even use Force Potency followed by Telekinetic Throw if you feel like it. Any of these methods will result in said mob coming to you simultaneously instead of one mob coming 8 seconds later and not getting killed by the AoE as the rest of his friends.

Edited March 18, 2013 by slafko