WotC SW Saga RPG

[Ventessel]

I'm just curious here, who's played the Wizards of the Coast d20 version of Star Wars, particularly the Saga Edition?

 

I'm a big fan of tabletop RPGs and always loved the d20 system for its flexibility and simplicity. Who else out there either played in or ran a campaign for one of those games?

[MyDarkSunshine]

I have played the RPG both in table top groups and PbP. The system is fairly good, and with the right people a lot of fun - albeit far from perfectly balanced. House rulings were often used to smooth the edges.

[Ventessel]

Yeah, you'll always have that player who manages to make a broken character. However, I've found that Saga Edition required far fewer house rules than previous variants of d20 to make it run smoothly.

 

The only thing that would become unbalanced was Move Object. There was just no way to keep that single force power from being used in outrageous situations. At one point during a campaign I had set during the Second Galactic Civil War, a player killed Ben Skywalker by plastering him against the ceiling of a hangar bay with a gargantuan shuttle.

 

Needless to say, Luke and Mara were pretty ticked off...

[MyDarkSunshine]

There was more than one build that could drop a target -4 down the CT in a single turn if it played out right, and a few other nasty one trick ponies. The general imbalance was between Force users and non-Force users. Move object was powerful (an optional rule toned it down, but wouldn't affect the situation you describe), yes, and generally the reason every Force user is advised to take multiple instances of Rebuke.

 

Ironically due to how skills leveled against other traits/defenses the Force becomes weaker the higher level a campaign is set. Oh, and light side Jedi totally own dark side Sith (severe Force ftw).

 

[Edit:] One trusts said player was shown Luke's justice?

Edited March 1, 2013 by MyDarkSunshine

[Ventessel]

There was more than one build that could drop a target -4 down the CT in a single turn if it played out right, and a few other nasty one trick ponies. The general imbalance was between Force users and non-Force users. Move object was powerful (an optional rule toned it down, but wouldn't affect the situation you describe), yes, and generally the reason every Force user is advised to take multiple instances of Rebuke.

Scoundrel/Assassins were usually very versatile builds. Force users were powerful, but with the right splat books there were abilities that balanced them out. A good will defense would keep Force powers from wrecking you, and there were feats that let you buff your will with your Intelligence. I've seen some very creative combinations used to good effect. A lot of my players actually made a concerted effort to play characters who eschewed the Force.

Ironically due to how skills leveled against other traits/defenses the Force becomes weaker the higher level a campaign is set. Oh, and light side Jedi totally own dark side Sith (severe Force ftw).

Eh, at a certain point it becomes possible for Force users to take 10 on certain powers. I think with any d20 game it finds its best balance around level 5-10 and starts to get unbalanced around 12-15. Higher than that and you do start to see really outrageous things.

There was also an illusion based talent that let a Force user trick someone into thinking they'd been cut off from the Force, which I thought was hilarious.

[Edit:] One trusts said player was shown Luke's justice?

The situation was actually rather complicated. Luke ended up forgiving the player involved... Mara, however, did not....

[leroyray]

First off I feel the need to tout my own qualifications before I weigh in on this subject. I have played every iteration of Star Wars RPGs since West End Games second edition D6 (for those keeping score at home that is West End Games D6 second and revised edition, Star Wars d20, Star Wars d20 revised, Saga Edition, and I have played both the the beta and beginner game of Fantasy Flight's new Fringe based RPG called Edge of the Empire)

 

That being said, of all the d20 systems Saga does the best job of achieving some sort of balance. Jedi are way more powerful out the gate (I hate skill focus: use the force) but the official errata did a good job of nerfing some of the force powers (changing the rules for move object was HUGE) Soldiers actually got pretty good towards the mid game levels and scoundrels with the right build could do some damage as well. My biggest issue with Saga is that it still felt like D&D with a palette swap. I ran Saga for a group of friends who are massive D&D 3.5/Pathfinder fans and they of course loved the game. They knew the basics of the rules and knew how to min/max. I do not have the D&D background and have no nostalgic attachment to the d20 rules (in fact the first 2 SW RPGs made under the d20 license turned me off so much I almost passed on Saga) so I was able to be a bit more critical of the game. Number 1, i found the combat to be too tactical. It felt like a mini's combat game with an RPG tacked on. Secondly, even though the balance was better there was still a power gap between Jedi and non-Jedi. Finally i feel the game didnt really capture the swashbuckling feel of the Star Wars films. We ran the game from levels 1 to 8 and dropped when I heard there was a new SW RPG in the works.

 

My recommendation is to try out the Fantasy Flight Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, it strives to capture the feel of the original trilogy and returns Force Users to their pre-EU power levels.

Edited March 3, 2013 by leroyray

[Ventessel]

Edge of the Empire looks very good, I was just checking out on your recommendation.

 

The cinematic style of action is actually something that I tried to replicate with my most recent SW Saga campaign. I'm fairly flexible when it comes to the "cinematic action" sequences of adventures. For example, the group was escaping from Corellia just before the outbreak of the Second Galactic Civil War.

 

The players were a motley assortment of old hands from the Yuzhong Vong Wars, two Jedi Knights, an assassin working for Alliance Intelligence, and an ace pilot who served a stint in Wraith Squadron before signing on with an Alliance intelligence cell.

 

It felt like Star Wars, and I kept the action fast paced and the players were on the edge of their seats with each decision they made. I had them make skill checks and scaled the difficulty and rewards based on what they were trying to do. Everyone was able to participate in one scenario or another, even if it was so simple as manning a gun turret and shooting down Corellian interceptors.

 

I think many DM's can get caught up in the rules and let things become bogged down. It takes preparation, but if you're comfortable with the mechanics, you can keep even tactical combat flowing smoothly and exciting. The duel with Ben Skywalker was actually an evolving situation, and the Jedi who was fighting him didn't want to kill him. The duel came to a standoff when Ben jumped over the player's Jedi and onto a shuttle, basically the situation at the end of Ep. III between Anakin and Obi-Wan... until a rogue Force Adept in the party who specialized in move object smacked the shuttle into the ceiling... then things got messy in a hurry.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Ventessel

[leroyray]

I just don't think a tactical combat system is the right fit for Star Wars. Part of what made D6 SW:RPG so great was that all you needed for combat was a sketched map on 8x11 paper and your imagination. I think tactical combat was a bad fit for this specific IP and Wizards of the Coast was just lazy by tacking SW onto a hastily constructed combo of D&D 3.5 and D&D 4th edition. I will take some of the blame for not being as familiar with the system as my PCs were. My RPG background is rooted more in D6 SW, Shadowrun and Pallidium

 

Conversely a game like Shadowrun would benefit from have a more tactical style of combat. Ask anyone who has played Shadowrun 4th edition how broken the game gets with multiple initiative passes while using a tactical map and minis. My gaming group still brings up the days long argument we had up and it has turned into something of a meme between us.

Edited March 3, 2013 by leroyray

[Ventessel]

I just don't think a tactical combat system is the right fit for Star Wars. Part of what made D6 SW:RPG so great was that all you needed for combat was a sketched map on 8x11 paper and your imagination. I think tactical combat was a bad fit for this specific IP and Wizards of the Coast was just lazy by tacking SW onto a hastily constructed combo of D&D 3.5 and D&D 4th edition. I will take some of the blame for not being as familiar with the system as my PCs were. My RPG background is rooted more in D6 SW, Shadowrun and Pallidium

 

Conversely a game like Shadowrun would benefit from have a more tactical style of combat. Ask anyone who has played Shadowrun 4th edition how broken the game gets with multiple initiative passes while using a tactical map and minis. My gaming group still brings up the days long argument we had up and it has turned into something of a meme between us.

 

I've found that a looser, more imaginative system can be great during role-playing moments (imagine if Han and Greedo had rolled initiative, and spent four rounds shooting at each other until someone's HP bottomed out...) but that many times the players will get into a gritty, tactical situation (Star Wars is filled with battles and so forth) and I like to reward good strategies and teamwork in those situations.

 

Now, I am a tactician by nature and by training. I've spent the better part of my life learning and practicing the various tenets of warfare, so I enjoy the military aspect of Star Wars a great deal. I've also been using the d20 system since its inception, so I'm comfortable with the system. I am constantly tweaking the feats, talents, etc. to fit the campaign I'm running. Back in high school I even ran a post-apocalyptic Gamma World game which was almost entirely homebrewed and quite a bit of fun.

 

The one thing I dislike about d20 is the concept of min/maxing, which often forces me as the DM to create encounters that are a little unbalanced, just to account for certain players' specialized attributes. So Fantasy Flight's game might be a welcome break from that, but I worry that it may introduce an oversimplification or lose some of the depth of character creation (purely from a mechanical standpoint).

 

Something that was fun to do was tie character advancement into the story. If they wanted to learn a certain feat or uncommon force power, someone had to teach them. Leveling up wasn't instantaneous, either. Sometimes players would have two levelups "in the wings" until they could settle down and train their new feats and abilities. Backgrounds also played a large role, both in the contacts they would have available, and in terms of skills, etc. which they were familiar with.

[Thylbanus]

I just want to chime in here and put my two cents in about the game. Loved it, but as with all games I play, the core books are nothing more than guidelines. I too try to capture the feel, rather than the mechanics behind the action. The story is much more important than the rules. As someone pointed out the unfortunate demise of Ben with the shuttle. I would have had Luke Force Pull him out of the way or have an opposed roll that would have either slowed it down for Ben to scramble away or win all together and put the shuttle down.

 

Either way, don't let mechanics get in the way of a good story.

[Ventessel]

I just want to chime in here and put my two cents in about the game. Loved it, but as with all games I play, the core books are nothing more than guidelines. I too try to capture the feel, rather than the mechanics behind the action. The story is much more important than the rules. As someone pointed out the unfortunate demise of Ben with the shuttle. I would have had Luke Force Pull him out of the way or have an opposed roll that would have either slowed it down for Ben to scramble away or win all together and put the shuttle down.

 

Either way, don't let mechanics get in the way of a good story.

Couldn't agree with you more about the "rulebooks are guidelines" bit, that's my guiding philosophy when it comes to tabletop RPGs.

Had Luke been there, no doubt he would have saved his son. However, this all took place on an orbital station above Corellia. Ben Skywalker had been falling further under the influence of Jacen Solo, who was becoming more radical and violent in his efforts to quell the Corellian secessionists. Ben initiated the confrontation onboard the station by placing the party under arrest, and one of the Jedi challenged him to a duel. Tempers flared and things got interesting.

[ThatGnome]

I just don't think a tactical combat system is the right fit for Star Wars. Part of what made D6 SW:RPG so great was that all you needed for combat was a sketched map on 8x11 paper and your imagination. I think tactical combat was a bad fit for this specific IP and Wizards of the Coast was just lazy by tacking SW onto a hastily constructed combo of D&D 3.5 and D&D 4th edition.

 

I agree with this. SW Saga is one of my favourite versions of WotC's D20 system, but I don't think it works well for Star Wars. The emphasis on tactics is one I really don't like that much. I've actually modified Saga for a few other SF games, but for Star Wars I would rather see a different system. Possibly FFG's new one, although I suspect I could something rather nice with a version of Fate.

[Ventessel]

I agree with this. SW Saga is one of my favourite versions of WotC's D20 system, but I don't think it works well for Star Wars. The emphasis on tactics is one I really don't like that much. I've actually modified Saga for a few other SF games, but for Star Wars I would rather see a different system. Possibly FFG's new one, although I suspect I could something rather nice with a version of Fate.

 

It became fairly obvious with 3.5 DnD and onwards that the d20 system was also pushing WotC's line of miniatures to support the system. Now, RPGs like this do have strong roots in the miniatures world, and it's fun to play with them for combat purposes, but it should be an optional aspect of the game.

 

Many players enjoy the tactical challenge of combat on a well-drawn map, and it can fit in quite well with a Star Wars campaign that wants to focus on warfare or battle. Just the same, many games will deal more with the intrigue and adventure that doesn't involve tactical combat, just the occasional shootout with Imperial troops or pirates.

 

I feel that you can always scale down the tactical aspect of the game, and resolve combats faster and with less gritty die rolling and so forth, but it's tough to incorporate that into a system where it doesn't exist in the first place. What happens when you need a specific resolution for a tense battle?

[ThatGnome]

Many players enjoy the tactical challenge of combat on a well-drawn map, and it can fit in quite well with a Star Wars campaign that wants to focus on warfare or battle. Just the same, many games will deal more with the intrigue and adventure that doesn't involve tactical combat, just the occasional shootout with Imperial troops or pirates.

 

I feel that you can always scale down the tactical aspect of the game, and resolve combats faster and with less gritty die rolling and so forth, but it's tough to incorporate that into a system where it doesn't exist in the first place. What happens when you need a specific resolution for a tense battle?

 

I do remember thinking that a 'Republic Commando' game would be a good fit for the system, but that never really appealed to any of the people I've played tabletop RPGs with. Though as I mentioned I've used the system for other SF settings, and a Mass Effect game I played with it worked out very well - admittedly, one with a heavy emphasis on tactical combat. I suppose the fairest thing I can say about Saga is that it's excellent at the things it does, but that the things I want to do in the SW universe aren't as well served.

[Ventessel]

Lightsaber combat is actually great fun with Saga Edition, and you can have pretty fluid dogfights and space battles. What exactly would you prefer in a Star Wars RPG that is covered by rules rather than roleplaying?

[Thylbanus]

Couldn't agree with you more about the "rulebooks are guidelines" bit, that's my guiding philosophy when it comes to tabletop RPGs.

Had Luke been there, no doubt he would have saved his son. However, this all took place on an orbital station above Corellia. Ben Skywalker had been falling further under the influence of Jacen Solo, who was becoming more radical and violent in his efforts to quell the Corellian secessionists. Ben initiated the confrontation onboard the station by placing the party under arrest, and one of the Jedi challenged him to a duel. Tempers flared and things got interesting.

 

You guys made me go back over my old notes and with my house rules. In my game, the shuttle wouldn't have been able to move fast enough to kill anyone. We made it so that Move Object had a sliding scale. Small objects could be moved quckly, but could not damage. If used at the beginning of a round, could force an initiative reroll due to distraction. Otherwise the bigger it was, the slower it moved. Depending on how far away that ceiling was, it could have taken several turns in my game the move the shuttle, more than enough time to do anything to prevent poor Ben's fate.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Thylbanus

[Ventessel]

You guys made me go back over my old notes and with my house rules. In my game, the shuttle wouldn't have been able to move fast enough to kill anyone. We made it so that Move Object had a sliding scale. Small objects could be moved quckly, but could not damage. If used at the beginning of a round, could force an initiative reroll due to distraction. Otherwise the bigger it was, the slower it moved. Depending on how far away that ceiling was, it could have taken several turns in my game the move the shuttle, more than enough time to do anything to prevent poor Ben's fate.

 

That's actually a great idea. I was always rather annoyed by the use of Distant Power with Move Object/Destiny Point to propel things at 90 feet per round across the solar system. I'll probably implement something along the lines of your house rule the next time I'm home, although my player who made a Force Adept that specialized in nothing but Move Object will be somewhat disappointed.

[leroyray]

Lightsaber combat is actually great fun with Saga Edition, and you can have pretty fluid dogfights and space battles. What exactly would you prefer in a Star Wars RPG that is covered by rules rather than roleplaying?

 

Going back to the newest iteration of SW:RPG, I like the non-binary dice system that Fantasy Flight is using (I know the main grip about the dice is that they are proprietary and cost $15 for a set but I will say this it is a great investment) It allows PC's to be more active in the way game mechanics effect the narrative. Spending the advantage and threats became as fun as succeed or failing in any given task. I enjoyed the mechanical representation of luck, ability and the Force that is presented in this system. I know I am talking Edge of he Empire up a lot and some of that is due the novelty and the "ZOMG! NEW SYSTEM!" but I think they are taking a fresh approach to mainstream gaming with what are basically radical ideas for a SW RPG. I am a HUGE fan of the no Jedi rules as well as the emphasis on the more grimmy noir elements of the Fringe

[Ventessel]

Going back to the newest iteration of SW:RPG, I like the non-binary dice system that Fantasy Flight is using (I know the main grip about the dice is that they are proprietary and cost $15 for a set but I will say this it is a great investment) It allows PC's to be more active in the way game mechanics effect the narrative. Spending the advantage and threats became as fun as succeed or failing in any given task. I enjoyed the mechanical representation of luck, ability and the Force that is presented in this system. I know I am talking Edge of he Empire up a lot and some of that is due the novelty and the "ZOMG! NEW SYSTEM!" but I think they are taking a fresh approach to mainstream gaming with what are basically radical ideas for a SW RPG. I am a HUGE fan of the no Jedi rules as well as the emphasis on the more grimmy noir elements of the Fringe

I do like the new dice system, and it seems like WotC is taking a similar concept into D&D Next with their expertise dice and the advantage system.

 

I have always dislike binary results, which is why I often have skill checks take multiple stages, with varying degrees of success. I will probably try out Edge of the Empire at some point, since the system looks to be fun and flexible. And I can always use my existing dice collection if need be, apparently there are adaptation tables for regular dice.

 

I do like that they kept Jedi out at first, both because attempts to balance Jedi with other classes always underpower the Jedi, and because I prefer to have Jedi training be something that has to be worked towards if a player wants that kind of ability. I think it's a good idea for Fantasy Flight to break the game into three parts, each focusing on certain elements of Star Wars.

[leroyray]

I am curious to see how releasing 3 separate core games, utilizing the same mechanics, and being fully compatible works out. White Wolf did this with Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Hunter, Changling, etc. and it worked out ok (except Mages were too over powered) and it made for this great pervasive world and story that stretched through several different games over different periods of time. I think Fantasy Flight can pull it off but the third book that introduces Jedi is probably going to be their version of Mage

[Ventessel]

Sure, but that's ok. I'm fine with Jedi being overpowered, and actually prefer that. This way they can be limited and you'd have to fulfill certain conditions to become one, but they're worth it if you want to allow it in your campaign.