yotasatheart Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Ok as the title says, im trying to figure out the bennefit, if any of running a vengence jugg over a Carnage Marauder. I have a 50 Carnage marauder and decided to roll a jugg, i got it to lvl32 and started to realize..they both do the same exact job in an extremily similar fashion..so why play one or the other?? ----differences----- vengence jugg +ravage reset on impale proc +savagry grants 60% crit on scream and execute +push +unstoppable talent +aoe slow +useless 31 point talent (hits the same as vicious slash with a 12s dot that does about the same as a vicious slash over duration) +6 rage on 1min timer +require a 3rage impale for savagry +15% DR on talented enraged defence +taunts **total of 2 defensive CDs Carnage Marauder +ravage roots target in place +gore +auto crit on scream +30% damage to scream and massacre crits +massacre (very very good 31pt talent) +root on saber throw (with 20% healing debuff) +berzerk +predation +15%dmg buff (forget name lol-i dont use much in pvp, use berzerk and pred more) +scream costs 1 less rage (after jugg shien form) than juggs do +6 rage on 15sec timer +scream auto crit procs off blood frenzy (any ataru hit (every 6sec)). massacre grants a free ataru hit.. +20% DR cd (up to 30sec on 1min timer) +99% DR cd on 1.5m timer (1.25m with 2pc) +insta cloak+rootbrake+speed increase for 5sec on 1min cd **total of 4 defensive cds ----similarities---- both rely heavily on ravage both rely heavily on scream both rely on massacre (carn) or VS (jugg) for filler dps i know i have most likely forgotten some things, but with the above mentioned... i suddently have lost my will to level my jugg from 32-50 considering carnage and vengence have the same job, and do it in a VERY similar fashion, but marauder has much better defensive CDs, more defensive CDs, more group and personal utility, and FAR more damage output in a quicker time span. im basically looking for someone to explain or convince to me why with the above mentioned a veng jugg could/would perform its job better than a carnage maruauder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridickilis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Veng Jugg is more flexible in my opinion because of the taunts (for pvp, you probably don't want to do this in pve) and ability to hybridize with the immortal tree for more survivability. Otherwise, yeah I noticed most of the same things you did. In fact I only went with a heavy veng tree build after the experience of leveling a Combat Sent to 50. I always found myself DPSing around healers and rooting enemies for them while thinking 'wow I really wish I had a taunt or guard right now'. Edited February 13, 2013 by Ridickilis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotasatheart Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 yeah taunts and guard is nice, but im not gonna lie, i cant stand to tank in pvp lol. i pvp to melt somebody elses face, or laugh as i heal someone that they are trying to melt. i do not pvp tank lol. so from that standpoint, for purely damage, there is zero incentive to roll veng jugg over carnage mara lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridickilis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Well don't think of it as a tank per-say. Look at this build (11/28/2), this is what I came up with as my "Combat spec tank" for a lack of a better term. It satisfied my need for a combat/carnage spec feel with some nice defensive CD's. Edited February 13, 2013 by Ridickilis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotasatheart Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 yeah but all that build does is give you 1 extra rage on sunder, free scream on charge a couple tank talents (cant remember the 2nd tier too well) and 40$DR on 3min timer. and 8% damage on ravage. Carnage will already have that 8$ on ravage from rage tree, but the baseline 20%DR for up to 30sec per 1min is much stronger than immortals 40% on 3min and it doesnt cost a talent point ya know? i also forgot to mention, juggs dont get the DR from AOE attacks that marauders get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyxin Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) OP,. there isn't enough of a difference between the two to make a decision on class design alone. you will have to end up choosing based on what you like. Personally, I like the single blade approach of the jugg, and their animations (I don't like the guard on repub side because of this...animations are king). Also skill execution...they certainly aren't identical, so some of those differences can impact your choice. the only other impact would possible be external opinion. People in general ignorantly assume that Mara = better damage (when skill is a critical factor). so even if you outplayed 99% of the mara's in the game, people may still assume that a mara does better damage and prefer the mara over the jugg. PvP I can't say....I refuse to play it in this game. Edited February 13, 2013 by Elyxin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridickilis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) yeah but all that build does is give you 1 extra rage on sunder, free scream on charge a couple tank talents (cant remember the 2nd tier too well) and 40$DR on 3min timer. and 8% damage on ravage. Carnage will already have that 8$ on ravage from rage tree, but the baseline 20%DR for up to 30sec per 1min is much stronger than immortals 40% on 3min and it doesnt cost a talent point ya know? i also forgot to mention, juggs dont get the DR from AOE attacks that marauders get True, true and I'm certainly not advocating one is better than the other. Though you are missing a few points of the build. It's more based off getting that ravage cd to proc and getting the crit buff on both vicious throw and scream. Also getting 20% DR for 4 seconds after every leap on top of CC immunity (which can be done every 15 seconds). Enraged defense will also give a +15% DR for it's duration (10 seconds), on a 45 second CD with it's already built in self healing, because of the deafening defense talent. That talent also gives a permanent 4% DR. And Saber Ward's 100 percent for 2 seconds which Mara's don't get. Plus heavy armor should give a base internal/elemental resistance of around 20-22% where, If my memory serves, I believe my combat Sent only has around 10% base. No doubt the Carnage spec puts out more damage but I do feel that overall this spec has better defenses. Of course this is just my own perception, I don't have any 'facts' or combat logs or anything. Just based off feel. I also notice, pound for pound, healers have an easier time keeping my Jugg up during focus fire than my Sent. Edited February 13, 2013 by Ridickilis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotasatheart Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 True, true and I'm certainly not advocating one is better than the other. Though you are missing a few points of the build. It's more based off getting that ravage cd to proc and getting the crit buff on both vicious throw and scream. Also getting 20% DR for 4 seconds after every leap on top of CC immunity (which can be done every 15 seconds). Enraged defense will also give a +15% DR for it's duration (10 seconds), on a 45 second CD with it's already built in self healing, because of the deafening defense talent. That talent also gives a permanent 4% DR. And Saber Ward's 100 percent for 2 seconds which Mara's don't get. Plus heavy armor should give a base internal/elemental resistance of around 20-22% where, If my memory serves, I believe my combat Sent only has around 10% base. No doubt the Carnage spec puts out more damage but I do feel that overall this spec has better defenses. Of course this is just my own perception, I don't have any 'facts' or combat logs or anything. Just based off feel. I also notice, pound for pound, healers have an easier time keeping my Jugg up during focus fire than my Sent. you also make good points. i cannot deny that unstoppable is the envy of pretty much any AC in the game. it is singularly the best pvp talent in game at this time lol. that one talent literally almost evens them out in my opinion. and i will agree, it does seem easier for a healer to get a jugg up than it is a marauder but, where unstoppable is a jugg trump card, undying rage's 99%DR for half life popped at 10-20% health is LOLOL heal me to full healer while i continue to melt face. for those 5sec a marauder can literally tank an entire team even if he only receives one small heal. one thing that does turn me off of jugg, is that it depends on a 5-1 rage shatter and 4-1 rage impale at 30% chance on 9sec CD to proc ravage reset. there is a lot of times where you could go a full sycle or 2 without getting a ravage proc and that is a huge DPS loss, especially in pvp where you need ravage the most. also, where jugg gets a 60% crit chance buff to execute and scream every 9 secs, marauder gets a 30% damage boosted auto crit scream every 6 seconds. and every 15secs that auto crit boosted scream gets to enjoy 100% armor pen too also before i forget, while enraged defense is fantastic, especially since it can be used while stunned and is a 45sec cd, it is a huge rage drain for a spec that already doesnt produce enough rage to keep it happy. between 4 rage shatter, 3 rage impale, and 3 rage screan and 2 rage vicious slashes, and 2 rage vicious throw (all of which require one more rage to use than needed because shien refunds one rage) makes for a spec that is fairly rage hungry without the rage production to sufficiently support all those abilities and a 4 rage CD that drains 1 rage every hit for 10 seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridickilis Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Well don't forget enrage (+6 rage)on a 60 second CD, especially useful for enraged defense but yeah rage management is quite tight in soresu. Course, having that unyeilding talent for the 4 rage every time we get stunned, slept or knocked down is quite useful too with all the stuns going around in pvp. lol I know what you mean about that damn ravage proc. I don't even have shatter so my only hope is impale. Though, you must admit, sometimes that RNG will seem like it just can't miss! You're almost afraid of someone calling HAX! on you. Otherwise, you pretty much nailed all the differences. Force camo and obfuscation really are useful little tools as well. I don't know, tough call. Carnage may be my favorite spec but the Jugg AC is my favorite class for pretty much all the same reasons Elyxin said. The look, the feel, just for the aesthetics of it. Edited February 14, 2013 by Ridickilis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotasatheart Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Well don't forget enrage (+6 rage)on a 60 second CD, especially useful for enraged defense but yeah rage management is quite tight in soresu. Course, having that unyeilding talent for the 4 rage every time we get stunned, slept or knocked down is quite useful too with all the stuns going around in pvp. lol I know what you mean about that damn ravage proc. I don't even have shatter so my only hope is impale. Though, you must admit, sometimes that RNG will seem like it just can't miss! You're almost afraid of someone calling HAX! on you. Otherwise, you pretty much nailed all the differences. Force camo and obfuscation really are useful little tools as well. I don't know, tough call. Carnage may be my favorite spec but the Jugg AC is my favorite class for pretty much all the same reasons Elyxin said. The look, the feel, just for the aesthetics of it. i completelly forgot about obfuscate -_- ok so mara get FIVE defensive CDs lol. obfuscate is AMAZING against any melee class and obfuscating a pyro PT or vanguard is LOLOL when you see that railshot miss haha. i wont lie i LOVE impales animation. i with massacre had an animation similar to impale or annihilate personally, but hey we cant get everything lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 i suddently have lost my will to level my jugg from 32-50 considering carnage and vengence have the same job, and do it in a VERY similar fashion, but marauder has much better defensive CDs, more defensive CDs, more group and personal utility, and FAR more damage output in a quicker time span. im basically looking for someone to explain or convince to me why with the above mentioned a veng jugg could/would perform its job better than a carnage maruauder From a DPS perspective, Juggy is solidly middle of the pack. Marauder is top 2, by a large margin, along with Pyro PT. If you're looking to fill a DPS role as a Sith Warrior, there are virtually no compelling reasons to choose a Juggy over a Marauder for PVE. The most compelling is that the person playing Juggy A is a better player than the person playing Marauder B. If it's the same person at the wheel of either class, Marauder simply does more damage, has better utility, and is the better choice. The above is purely from a mechanics standpoint. Pyro PT and Marauder are simply in the healthiest place from a DPS perspective, and there's no getting around that fact. I'd even give the nod to PT over Marauder because it is so shockingly *easy* to do good DPS. The most compelling reason to play a Juggy is if you want to be able to DPS or tank as required. Alternately, the subjective reasons, like "fun" or "anti-FOTM" are reasons to consider Juggy, but I don't put much stock in either. Marauder is really fun to play (moreso than Juggy for me, anyway), and I don't think the current state of class balance should in any way influence what you want to level. If it happens to be FOTM, so be it. If it happens to be a lame duck, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_y Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 yeah taunts and guard is nice, but im not gonna lie, i cant stand to tank in pvp lol. i pvp to melt somebody elses face, or laugh as i heal someone that they are trying to melt. i do not pvp tank lol. so from that standpoint, for purely damage, there is zero incentive to roll veng jugg over carnage mara lol If we're talking PvP, have you considered playing your jug as a smasher? By the time smash is nerfed, the expansion will be here, so everything will be different then anyway (and you may like what they do for Vengeance more than what they do for Carnage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotasatheart Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 If we're talking PvP, have you considered playing your jug as a smasher? By the time smash is nerfed, the expansion will be here, so everything will be different then anyway (and you may like what they do for Vengeance more than what they do for Carnage). This is a real possibility, ill give you that. and no i havent even considered smash because i refuse to play a one trick pony lol. i would love to see vengence get some love. i really really would. i understand the lack of utility they possess as i obviously already have a50 carnage marauder, id be perfectly happy with my jug if they made them at least be within 5-10% of a marauders damage between veng and carn. as it stands though, this is not the case =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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