Threat ISSUE (guardian)

[Icebergy]

Guardians are definitely the weakest of the tanks by far when it comes to DPS and threat, but it is far from unplayable. I would definitely agree that we need a buff, but here is some advice to help you make due.

 

OP my first question for you is what spec are you using? The defense/immortal tree is currently awful and you really should not be putting any more than 17 points in it. If you are using it, I strongly recommend you switch to 17/22/2.

 

Your priority for that spec is sweep->bladestorm->master strike->sunder while keeping riposte up at all times, and weaving in strikes and slashes as your focus needs and allows respectively.

 

Taunt mechanics in this game are different than any other MMO I have played. In other MMOs, taunts do not actually ADD any aggro unless you are behind someone in aggro, then it will place you at the top and force the target to attack you. In SWTOR, it does all that, but in addition, it treats your threat as a separate entity if you are on the top of the threat meter and will bump your threat up 30%(I am not sure if this is the number, but it is something like that) above where it currently is.

 

What this means for you is that taunts are a huge threat increase to use in a rotation. Open up the fight with a taunt after your sweep and BS, and then once the taunt debuff wears off, hit your AoE taunt, by the time the AoE taunt falls off, your taunt will be off cd again, use it again. Those three taunts will put you far enough ahead of your DPS that you should be fine for the rest of your encounter.

 

After those three initial taunts, and maybe 1-2 more single target ones when it comes off cooldown, I personally do not use my taunt anymore unless I feel like I need it. I prefer to save them for an emergency, but YMMV.

[Kil-Gorbane]

Sweeping slash is more AoE attack with less damage and bigger rage spender not needed on a boss fight especially as filler during an opener.

 

I prefer to hit smash before going into sunder armors because its a bigger hit and higher threat on the opener. But I don't doubt either way would be bad again to each his own I suppose if its working for you (obviously is).

 

I consider my opener: Saber Throw -> Force Leap -> Sundering Strike -> Force Sweep -> Blade Storm -> Riposte -> Sundering Strike/Master Strike -> Sundering Strike.

 

Now after that I will then start using: Blade Storm/Force Sweep/Riposte/Master Strike/Sundering Strike (roughly in that order) whenever they are available. As a filler, I highly recommend you consider using Sweeping Slash as a filler (yes, even if it is 1 boss).

 

For whoever is having threat generation: I suggest getting Courage so the only thing you have to use Focus on is (~1 for Blade Storm), 3 for Dispatch, and then the rest on Sweeping Slash. I know that it looks like it is an inefficient ability (because it is), but trust me --- spamming a high treat ability (AoE attacks have increased threat generation) works wonders.

 

** I know it is possible for Guardian tanks to be feasible in the high end raids, but we have to work our butts off to do it. BW could help out the Guard/Jugg tanks by re-working the Defense/Immortal tree. It's 'smart-high threat' ability at 31 points needs to be reworked (I thought it needed a lower cooldown before the change but then they butchered it). Why does the Hybrid build have better armor mitigation (4% on everything vs. 4% on elemental)? Lastly, Focused Defense needs to be saber-form dependent (drops threat in offense forms and increases threat in defense form).

Edited February 4, 2013 by Kil-Gorbane

[IrishTR]

I consider my opener: Saber Throw -> Force Leap -> Sundering Strike -> Force Sweep -> Blade Storm -> Riposte -> Sundering Strike/Master Strike -> Sundering Strike.

 

Now after that I will then start using: Blade Storm/Force Sweep/Riposte/Master Strike/Sundering Strike (roughly in that order) whenever they are available. As a filler, I highly recommend you consider using Sweeping Slash as a filler (yes, even if it is 1 boss).

 

For whoever is having threat generation: I suggest getting Courage so the only thing you have to use Focus on is (~1 for Blade Storm), 3 for Dispatch, and then the rest on Sweeping Slash. I know that it looks like it is an inefficient ability (because it is), but trust me --- spamming a high treat ability (AoE attacks have increased threat generation) works wonders.

 

** I know it is possible for Guardian tanks to be feasible in the high end raids, but we have to work our butts off to do it. BW could help out the Guard/Jugg tanks by re-working the Defense/Immortal tree. It's 'smart-high threat' ability at 31 points needs to be reworked (I thought it needed a lower cooldown before the change but then they butchered it). Why does the Hybrid build have better armor mitigation (4% on everything vs. 4% on elemental)? Lastly, Focused Defense needs to be saber-form dependent (drops threat in offense forms and increases threat in defense form).

 

 

I'll look into it and run a parse I didn't think it generated any additional threat beyond the DPS it does (which in turn on multiple targets that makes sense) but when its only hitting one target for say example call it 900 damage vs 3 targets for 900 damage each, I'm doubtful its doing more threat than another ability would of higher damage.

 

Again I'll try to get some parse shorts here this week.

[Kil-Gorbane]

I'll look into it and run a parse I didn't think it generated any additional threat beyond the DPS it does (which in turn on multiple targets that makes sense) but when its only hitting one target for say example call it 900 damage vs 3 targets for 900 damage each, I'm doubtful its doing more threat than another ability would of higher damage.

 

Again I'll try to get some parse shorts here this week.

 

Single Saber Mastery... its generating 30% more treat (if spec'ed). Now I am wondering if that is 30% before the tank stance's % increase on top (so 30% * 2?). Either way, its a 'high threat' ability, no need to parse it.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Kil-Gorbane

[IrishTR]

Single Saber Mastery... its generating 30% more treat (if spec'ed). Now I am wondering if that is 30% before the tank stance's % increase on top (so 30% * 2?). Either way, its a 'high threat' ability, no need to parse it.

 

Ah yes Single Saber Mastery 3/3 that's where Smash gets its higher threat I was trying to think of at work as well as sweeping slash cool. So yea Smash no cost and Sweeping Slash is 3, I'll still run the parses of it all to see the optimal and highest of all that (Threat is calculated off of the damage done too so thats a factor)

 

Smash vs Sweeping Slash (Threat and DPS)

Sweeping Slash vs Vicious Slash (same was the other I wanted to compare as they both require 3 rage)

Edited February 4, 2013 by IrishTR

[Lord_of_Mu]

While I can agree that tanks could use some improvements in the way their threat scales with gear. I don't believe HP scaling is the way to go.

 

HP to threat is a pretty bad idea as it leaves the possibility for better geared players who already generate a lot of threat to generate even more. It also means that a lot of newer tanks will stack endurance over defensive stats and the last thing any healer wants to heal is a paper tank with a large hp pool.

 

A better solution would be to adjust or add in passive talents that improves the coefficient we receive from strength and power. I know that accuracy isn't a big deal for us but a top tier talent that converts a percentage of either our endurance or primary stat to accuracy might also help. An extremely high hit rate to the point that we start cutting through a target's defenses, dealing "penetrating" damage might be new direction to go.

 

So long as the talent is high enough and not viable for pvp, balancing issues shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Icebergy]

I think the biggest issue is that the defense/immortal tree is just so bad right now, that there is no simple fix. If they tack on some extra threat at the top of the defense tree, I still will not spec into it, because Vigilance will still be better for surviving and for dealing damage.

 

The tree requires a complete rework at this point, and I don't think they are willing to do that. I think the soonest we can hope for that is with RotHC.

 

EDIT: I actually just thought of a quick fix for making the defense tree viable. Tack Unremitting on to something high in the defense tree, such as Command (this talent is very weak (shortens force push CD) and is quite high up in the tree), and then switch the DR bonuses of Commanding Awe and Inner Peace. Boom, the defense tree is now the obvious tanking tree. At that point, they can easily just tack on a bonus to Soresu threat somewhere, like maybe Guardian Strike.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Icebergy

[JediMasterSarynn]

As someone who has optimally geared all three tank classes and run raids with all of them, Guardian definitely has threat issues compared to the other classes. It got to the point where I ditched my Guardian altogether (after playing with him since 7 months before launch in beta) because it was just frustrating. I only recently started playing him again because I missed him (being my first character and all).

 

They've nerfed Guardian damage, and as a result, threat generation, since beta. For the most part, any time they've even touched the Guardian class at all since about the 3-4 month mark before launch they've either removed skills from the class or lessened it's overall effectiveness in tanking. I'm hoping that with the Makeb "expansion" they revisit all the classes, especially Guardian tanking, and bring it inline with the other tanking classes.

[Marb]

It is IMO until Bioware adjusts Immortal accordingly. And yes the difference between the two is more than just very small... Immortal TPS and DPS is subpar to the Hybrids (as mentioned earlier do I think its right? of course not but it is what is and I just work with the cards we're being dealt right now).

 

And I played Immortal just like everyone else to its fullest from day 1 to post change in what was it 1.2? Even the gurus at MMO Mechanics discredited it too, so they must all never played it right either. You sir must be the diamond in the ruff who gets it right, so my compliments to you.

 

I can't speak for the people at mmo mechanics, but have you actually looked at the tps of both builds? please post some logs that show the massive threat difference. The difference between both specs, as far as threat goes, is not very impressive. If your playing hybrid because of "heaps better threat" you have missed the point of the spec.

 

Immortal gets crushing blow, gets more threat on smash (from 2/2 decimate) and backhand (past the opener this is irrelevant.) Also possibly more threat on ravage if you put your last point into ravager.

 

Hybrid gets a bleed on force scream, more uptime on force scream and impale. Depending how you spec, some builds don't even get impale so then you don't have anything to compare for the absence of crushing blow.

 

And before anyone says it, no, crushing blow deals more threat then impale. The main draw back is its cooldown. On the other hand Impale has a shorter cooldown, but with hybrid rage constraints you don't actually take advantage of that anywhere near what you would think. Extracts from: http://www.torparse.com/search?s=gorsameth

 

Crushing Blow hits Operations Training Dummy for 1076 energy damage, causing 2799 threat.

Crushing Blow hits Operations Training Dummy for 1084 energy damage, causing 2819 threat.

Crushing Blow hits Operations Training Dummy for 1022 energy damage, causing 2658 threat.

Crushing Blow hits Operations Training Dummy for 1043 energy damage, causing 2713 threat.

 

 

Impale hits Operations Training Dummy for 1184 energy damage, causing 2369 threat.

Impale hits Operations Training Dummy for 1207 energy damage, causing 2415 threat.

Impale hits Operations Training Dummy for 1207 energy damage, causing 2415 threat.

Impale hits Operations Training Dummy for 1146 energy damage, causing 2292 threat.

 

And to just clarify my position, I'm not saying that immortal is better, its not. But as far actual net TPS there is little difference. Hybrid has more raw dps, while immortal has comparable threat due to higher threat multipliers.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Marb

[thasensei]

Some great tips in this thread, particularly those by Lutese.

 

While I agree that guardian threat is troublesome....what fights does this REALLY matter? Writhing Horror is the first that comes to mind where it's really critical to never lose aggro. The probe droids in the Vorgath encounter are probably another scenario with that knockback mechanic.

 

As far as I know, it's not CRITICAL if you lose aggro in the other fights, so long as you get it back for those key moments.

 

So for those 2 fights guardians have it a little tougher; but this is fixed by working taunts into your opening rotation. Is it nice to have a higher overall threat? Absolutely. Is it game-breaking if you don't? No, not with current mechanics.