Threat ISSUE (guardian)

[RAGE-HICKS]

I'm full dreadguard 24% def 50 shield 50 absorb about 1700 strength with 18+ power augments on almost all my items I was hoping that alongside sentinels (guarded) they wouldn't pull aggro between taunts, however it doesn't feel solid even with a flushed out rotation that fits in the most economic and threat generating abilities it can drop unexpectedly I've made almost no progress changing augments or any variant.

 

Compared to what I could achieve as far as total HP looking at threat mechanics those being DPS = threat i statted somewhat balanced i have unbuffed about 26-27k health but i was really hoping for a real tank not some dps statted tank simply to be comparable to sentinels offensive threat abilities.

 

Before the elitists jump in with "If you're losing threat in dreadguard" Let me preface by saying i have spent weeks flushing out rotations and taunting at the most opportune times to keep aggro on me.

I'm not LOSING aggro all the time but is this game simply a taunt spam? does it even matter what DPS i put out because what i expected my aggro to be with dreadguard is remarkably unsatisfying.

 

Almost all bosses i'm fine but stormcaller for instance where you have to rotate the turret you lose a few seconds of dps now that might not seem a lot but without an area taunt and then a saved single for something else you can lose aggro if dps isn't switched on.

 

TL:DR?

 

Tanking is unsatisfying for me even with a fully endgame geared tank because threat is dumb.

 

 

 

Note to developers

 

HP = Threat

Please add a buff to threat based on overall HP so that TANKS can actually be tanks and not dps stat to hold aggro in between taunt spamming.

Or Increase stance threat

 

 

Don't sit around and think about it just add this in please don't float it past management because you will be moved into working on some terrible warzone because you know your engine can't handle mass pvp.

please just do it.

Edited February 3, 2013 by RAGE-HICKS

[kirorx]

I know I was having some trouble with tanking because when i played SWG i would just build up threat by attacking for a bit prior to everyone attacking

 

Here in SWTOR i have found a few issues, one being that enemies drop the threat to attack someone every once in a while. This happens with knockbacks and stuff.

 

I found that, am maybe this will help; that it is best to not use taunt abiltites when building threats and save them for when the boss hits you with a knock back. This has been the best way IMO to keep the aggro on me and off my peeps.

[ckoneful]

I recommend posting this in the tank forums. It'll get buried here. Also, what's your co-tank? Shadows can still attack from 4-10m with most of their arsenal so you may want to consider swapping which tank you tank. Just a thought. I don't know much about Guardians, sorry.

[Petnil]

personly i use defence augments. Defence is king for guardians since we get so much bonus defence from talents.

Now if you insist on "dps" augments you should get strenght > power.

 

Guardians and juggernaut tanks do less dps that the 2 other type of tanks since the nerf some time ago. That´s the main reason we have lower tps than other tanks imo. We can only hope for a few dps buffs to the tank tree if not sooner then at the latest when RotHc launches.

 

What i do to help myself keep agro. Get 27 hilt and ofhand armoring. Depending on the content you do and you HP you take guardian or might. It made a huge difference for me but i have a feeling you allready got full 27 gear based on your hp and stats.

 

Cant realy say add much more. It´s true. Guardians/juggernaut tanks have a threat issue.

[tman_ac]

Have to agree on this, Guardians need a fix. In my raid team we have one shadow tank and one Guardian tank, both are full 63 geared. While the shadow tank can easily keep the aggro off my sentinel (full 63), the Guardian has a lot of issues, no matter if I am guarded by him and wait like 5s before I start attacking the Boss. I pull the aggro so fast that even my aggro dump doesn't help at all.

 

This is a serious problem for Guardians and I hope BW will fix this in an upcoming patch!

[KarethRiker]

Agree. Fix needed. Our best dps pull off any tank in a good burst situation but sins and PT get it under control fast. With ajugg they just lose it again 10 seconds later. We sometimes run with two juggs, fun times. Two easy fixes. Have the person who is guarded's threat redirect to tank. Have tank able to guard two people. Both still provide some threat mechanic challenges but would be better. And yes dps need to aggro dump, we do.

[Elyxin]

Since our threat bonus is equal (roughly)between the tanks, the variable between the guard/jugg and the other tanks must lie in either: Scaling of non weapon based skills, or simply damage.

 

Threat has 2 components: damage and threat. damage is a one-for-one. Threat bonuses multiply this. so with a lower actual damage ceiling, our threat is simply going to be lower.

 

I'm not sure why tanks...or Dev's... have such an aversion to damage. It's not like doing 200 extra DPS will hurt our tanking ability...nor will it turn us into Mauraders with tank skills. but it will help a TON towards managing threat. there's no reason why our threat should have to scale with Health...the only thing that will happen is the other tanks (who statistically have more health then us) will still generate more threat then us. But increasing damage will benefit us in threat, and also speed up the solo process for those who don't have the reserves or desire to respec every night (or keep multiple gear sets).

 

All the have to do is retract the damage nerfs the did to us back in 1.4. out of all the tank specs, the guard/jugg was the ONLY one that got a damage reduction alongside the threat increase. the other two just got threat boosts (I think the PT/Van got a mild damage change with one of their talents). And we got NO official explanation for it, not even to this day. A change of 200 DPS is aprox a 20% increase in damage/threat for the Jugg, it would make a huge difference.

 

the solution is simple. bring Crushing Blow back up to it's former glory...even with the extra few mobs we can hit at a full stack, it would be far from OP with it's previous damage. add to a trait higher in the tree that would increase our damage by 5% in Soresu form only. there are a ton of simple ways to increase our damage without adding complexity (though there are a number of great ideas in the jugg forums for improving the spec overall).

 

Sorry for the book. big chip on my shoulder atm. TLDR - simple solution = increase our damage by 200 DPS average. wont break anything, will solve our issue.

[Jawstheshark]

To my observation all the tank classes have issues at end game. A fully geared DPS, going full throttle, will out pull a fully geared tank all the time, even with the tank cycling taunts on cooldown.

 

The problem is DPS and the threat gained from that DPS scales on a much steeper curve than tank threat, as players gain gear.

 

The simple fix to me would be to adjust the various tank mode/stance/cell/etc abilities and tie in some component to threat gain that links to one of the primary stats that tanks would gain with gear rather than the sheer DPS tanks put out.

 

 

If they do it right, it should be a fix it once and done.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Jawstheshark

[Lutese]

I'm full dreadguard 24% def 50 shield 50 absorb about 1700 strength with 18+ power augments on almost all my items.

 

I did read the whole post, but almost didn't after this opening line.

 

Your are a solid 6% off where your Defense should be.

 

Ditch those worthless Power Augments and swap in some Def. ones until you hit 30%.

(30/50/50 are the stats Jug/Guardians should have)

 

Are you pure tank spec (i.e. 31 in left tree) or are you Hybrid?

 

Hybrid not only gives you better mitigation, but also does more damage which equals more threat.

(you swap 4% Absorb for 4% flat mitigation which is much, MUCH better. Add to that the Unstoppable talent, and Force free Smashes and what is not to like? Dump more of those worthless power Augs to make up the loss of Absorb)

 

Do you understand how taunts work?

 

When taunting from Mele distance you gain 110% threat.

When taunting from Range you gain 130% threat.

 

Mele is considered 2.74 meters from the center of the targets hitbox.

 

Ranged is 2.75 meters.

 

A simple step backwards when you taunt = 20% more threat.

 

Do you use Enraged Defense as a Defensive CD? (don't... it lowers threat)

 

Are you Guarding the highest damage dealer?

 

Are your taunts always on CD? (Both AOE and single target)

 

Are you doing silly things like pulling with a taunt? That is basically gimping your threat on the pull. An increase of 110 - 130% threat of initial aggro = no real threat increase at all and a horrible thing for a tank to do.

(I can't think of a single boss in any Flashpoint or Operation that I have ever lead with a taunt)

 

Find a fast, efficient, and high damage opening rotation and follow it with a taunt. (make sure to take that step back to 2.75m for the 20% threat bump if it is stationary target)

 

Follow that with another solid high DPS rotation and use your AOE taunt. (stepping into 130% range of course)

 

After your next solid high DPS rotation is done your single target taunt is back up so use it. (again stepping back if possible for the 20% bump)

 

You now have a nice chunk of threat and SHOULD be well ahead of your DPS.

 

(keeping this up and using your taunts on CD)

 

Don't wait for someone to pull off of you to use a taunt.

Make it a part of your rotation and be smart about it.

Losing threat will become a non-issue.

 

(I have people spiking to 2,400 DPS in raids <durn PT Powertechs and Snipers> and I don't lose threat on a boss ever)

 

 

 

 

<edit: ok, maybe once every 100 pulls if I am being stupid>

Edited February 3, 2013 by Lutese

[Marb]

When they introduced grade 61 mods in 1.2, they also went about itemising individual mods better, or at least making it possible to obtain the exact mod your after. So not only did we get a general increase in dps, we also got the ability fine tune and "BiS" dps, which simply wasn't practical with rakata itemisation. This made dps classes deal more damage not only from the increase stat budgets, but the availability of optimised mods to increase dps past a simple tier adjustment (the gap from rakata to campaign is massive for this reason).

 

Now on the other hand, they buffed tank threat by 50%, which means amount of threat that tanks gain from their damage was increased by 50%. However at the same time, tanks had their dps adjusted DOWN. Vanguards lost the surge bonus on stockstrike, Guardians lost their 6% damage boost from vigilance and had guardian slash damage reduced. Shadow dps was less effected, with balance changes made to bring their damage mitigation in line with the other tanks (Which now, means that they still have the best threat generation, purely because they have the best dps.)

 

The main point though, purely from the guardian perspective, is if you take into account the nerfs to dps, with the relative increase to damage for dps classes, I feel the 50% threat boost is not as effective at closing this gap as it was intended to be. The issue is compounded by the fact that threat scales WITH DAMAGE and guardian dps was already the lowest amongst the tanks prior to these changes. This resulted in guardians receiving a net increase in threat that was/is insufficient.

 

And before someone brings it up again, I can't seriously believe that rolling taunts is intended design, considering most fights require taunts at specific intervals, and some have dire consequences for the tank loosing threat for even a moment (Asation HM).

Edited February 3, 2013 by Marb

[Elyxin]

....stuff....

 

Great advice. I'd highly recommend most tanks pay attention to it if they are looking to improve their current play. But I think the issue that the OP is bringing up (which is a good one), is that the "tanking" tree for the guard/Jugg is not working as intended.

 

When you can get better mitigations and better threat via damage from our primary DPS tree (a Hybridized version of it), that tells us somethings wrong. when the best traits for tanking are early in the tank tree and late in the DPS tree that tells us somethings wrong.

 

he is probably low on defense due to the stat placement of the gear + the augments. but how is increasing his defense going to increase his threat? you are correct...not saying you aren't...but I think this post was less about his specific build and more about how the tanking aspect of this class is broke. For all you know, his defense is low because he is trying various ways of increasing his threat (hence the power augs).

 

The issue isn't his build nor what you think of his experience....the issue is you and I recommending that he spec as a DPS HYBRID to be a more effective tank. that's the issue. and a critically important One I might add as we move forward in this game. the tanking tree needs a vital revamp. I spec full 31 pts into my tanking tree for my shadow consular (assassin). it's the best build for them to tank with. It should be the exact same for guards and juggs...but it's not. were the only class that specifically DOESN'T spec fully into the tanking tree to tank.

[Mavery]

Op, you do have some significant problems with your gearing so that does not help you any. The main issue with guardian threat is the amount of white hit that we have. It's not so bad that you should lose threat, but the margin for error is so slight.

[gamorrean]

like most others here, as a Jugg tank it has just got to the point where i do not have any fun anymore on him and retired him, it feels more like a taunt rotation game rather than actually tanking, i almost feel the Jugg/Guardian have to be outfitted like dps to hold threat then that is no help for surviabilty or and help to a healer.

[PhantomMalice]

The way I see it, two things needs to happen. One of them is to bring threat generation of tanks up to par with DPS of their same gear level. Two, make sure threat dumps on DPS actually makes a difference. I can't stress the 2nd point enough. If BioWare is dead set on "team work" between DPS and tanks in terms of threat managements, then they need to make DRASTIC increase on the threat that is being dumped when DPS uses their Diversion, Cloud Mind, Surrender etc. etc. So far, the only threat dumps that actually work are the in combat stealth.

 

And I have another pet peeve. What's up with the ambiguous tool tips? "This ability generate high threat"? "Lowers your threat generated by moderate amount"? "Absorbs high amount of damage"?

 

I am seriously, did the tooltip writer in BioWare failed their math class or something? Or did EA forget to give you funding to write percentages into the tool tips? Like how hard is it to say "This ability generates additional 100% threat"?

Edited February 3, 2013 by PhantomMalice

[SentinelDranoel]

The way I see it, two things needs to happen. One of them is to bring threat generation of tanks up to par with DPS of their same gear level. Two, make sure threat dumps on DPS actually makes a difference. I can't stress the 2nd point enough. If BioWare is dead set on "team work" between DPS and tanks in terms of threat managements, then they need to make DRASTIC increase on the threat that is being dumped when DPS uses their Diversion, Cloud Mind, Surrender etc. etc. So far, the only threat dumps that actually work are the in combat stealth.

 

 

I am seriously, did the tooltip writer in BioWare failed their math class or something? Or did EA forget to give you funding to write percentages into the tool tips? Like how hard is it to say "This ability generates additional 100% threat"?

 

I agree with the dumping for DPS, I find it useless sometimes. I thought it was just me, lol. I have used it and still kept agro on me, if a tank has to taunt to get the the agro off of me, what is the point of me using the agro dump. Some numbers would help. 50%, 75%, 25%...

 

Between the threat with Smash, Hilt Strike and Guardian Slash, I don't really lose agro with the Burst Dps toon Guarded. I like the suggestion of the option to guard more than one person. I would like to see Guardian Slash do more damage when 5 stacks of armor reduction is on my target.

[theSCARAYone]

I have a guardian and a juggernaut tank and they are by far the weakest tanks. I have full 61 gear with some augmented and a shadow in my guild in half 56's half 58's keeps aggro off of me so easily even while I'm doing all high threat ability's and taunting on cooldown. This is why roflsmashers make me angry, because they make Bioware think about nerfing one of the higher threat generating ability's for guardians. They need to buff guardian tanks and change the way the class works a little bit.

[Lutese]

And before someone brings it up again, I can't seriously believe that rolling taunts is intended design, considering most fights require taunts at specific intervals, and some have dire consequences for the tank loosing threat for even a moment (Asation HM).

 

 

You seem to be bringing preconceived notions of tanking from some "other" games into this one.

 

You are acting like taunting is "bad" or means you "failed" in some way as a tank.

 

I come from another MMO (LOTRO) where a taunt only holds the mob and doesn't build additional threat. As a tank I had to WORK for my aggro. I get it. In that game if you taunt it means you "failed" at your job.

 

Taunting constantly to maintain threat is how THIS game works. The taunt DOES build threat and is a valuable skill that should be used in a rotation as opposed to regulated to "oh shoot I messed up I better taunt".

 

In order to hold threat without taunts in THIS game the tank will have to be doing somewhere around 1,000-1,300k DPS which just isn't going to happen.

 

I've tanked TFB HM (we as a guild have been 5/5 for a bit now) and I fully understand the mechanics of all the fights in this game and from all the various roles. (I raid lead and will tank, dps or heal based on group makeup)

 

BECAUSE you are constantly tank swapping on most all of the Bosses in TFB the tanks are able to maintain threat on DPS that are, when well geared and min/maxed correctly, pulling some really crazy numbers right now.

 

IF you are able to maintain threat on ANY class of tank without using taunts constantly then you need to have a nice long talk with your DPS about why they are only doing 1,200-1,400 DPS.

 

I can have as many as three DPS'rs in one of my Guild runs that can pull over 2K during a boss fight.

(2,400 spikes are fairly common)

 

Unless I do a very efficient DPS rotation constantly and using every skill in my bag o' goodies (including taunts) I just will not be able to hold threat vs. DPS pulling numbers like that.

 

But I somehow manage to.

 

And I have explained how.

 

Hope it helped.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Lutese

[Aelrail]

Threat dumps used correctly are very effective, if the DPS waits until he pulls aggro, they are doing it wrong. Threat dumps should be kept on CD always if the tank is having aggro issues.

And aggro might be an issue at the beginning of the fight, after that should not be, say what you want but after 15 or 20 secs into the fight, if aggro is an issues, you are doing something wrong.

Accuracy is in tank gear for a reason, in this game and every other game, you need to hit to generate threat.

Once you get to the 30/50/'50, or whatever mitigation stats balance is optimal for your class, the rest of the stat budget should go into threat generation stats,mainly power, for increased threat generation. If you keep stacking mitigation it is mostly wasted stat budget due to diminishing returns.

 

Most of the times the people complaining about mechanics do not fully understand the mechanics of the game, and this looks like a perfect example.

 

The threat mechanics are in a good place in this game, learn to use your tools.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Aelrail

[Chiramu]

You might need more strength for your tanking. Tanking needs to DPS a reasonable amount to keep aggro too. A big health pool does nothing if you can't keep the aggro, and also that big health pool whittles away fast unless you have mitigation.

 

Tanking is not an easy job.

[PhantomMalice]

Most of the times the people complaining about mechanics do not fully understand the mechanics of the game, and this looks like a perfect example.

 

The threat mechanics are in a good place in this game, learn to use your tools.

 

NONE of us actually "understands" anything in this game. Everything including the claims about using taunts in a rotation to hold aggro or the supposed amount of threat is added when using high threat abilities. All of these are guess work at best. Now, you may argue that a small group of people had tested a few situation and posted some supposed numbers doesn't make them correct. Granted, it doesn't make them wrong either, but the sample size and amount of test conducted is far too small to use as an immoveable evidence.

 

As I said before, I don't understand BioWare's obsession in avoiding the posting of some concrete numbers. Purposely leaving the game mechanics in ambiguity only prompts me to suspect the game developers are lazy enough to make a half broken mechanic and use the wording in tooltips as an excuse for their incompetence.

 

"Oh, everything is working as intended. You are just mistaken about what 'generates high amount of threat' actually means!"

[Mavery]

NONE of us actually "understands" anything in this game. Everything including the claims about using taunts in a rotation to hold aggro or the supposed amount of threat is added when using high threat abilities. All of these are guess work at best. Now, you may argue that a small group of people had tested a few situation and posted some supposed numbers doesn't make them correct. Granted, it doesn't make them wrong either, but the sample size and amount of test conducted is far too small to use as an immoveable evidence.

 

As I said before, I don't understand BioWare's obsession in avoiding the posting of some concrete numbers. Purposely leaving the game mechanics in ambiguity only prompts me to suspect the game developers are lazy enough to make a half broken mechanic and use the wording in tooltips as an excuse for their incompetence.

 

"Oh, everything is working as intended. You are just mistaken about what 'generates high amount of threat' actually means!"

 

You are absolutely 100% wrong.

 

When the developers introduced combat logging -- and when players came out with the various parsing websites -- we are able to see exactly what abilities do. If you take a website like torparse.com, go into the the log tab, you'll see things like this:

 

22:36:40.051 Elidibs's Slow Time hits Kephess the Undying for 761 kinetic damage, causing 2283 threat.

 

Slow Time is one such ability that generates a "high amount of threat." The threat stances add a flat 100% threat increase on all damaging abilities (which brings it up to 1522 threat). If we then multiply that by 1.5 you get 2,283. Which means "this ability generates a high amount of threat" is a 1.5x multiplier.

 

You can repeat this for almost anything. Through logs I can see precisely how much threat I gain from taunts, how much I lose from threat dumps, and the like.

 

Yes, the tooltips do not explain everything -- but logs do.

[GuruVII]

The link links to another topic on these forums. True it is for shadow tanks, but it does explain some tanking mechanics.

 

 

The Link

[BrianDavion]

Guardians have been begging BW to give their tank build a serious buff since early access. BW has never EVER addressed this. (apparently they're not willing to address issues with a class if it's PVE mechanic. quick complain that our DPS sucks in PVP! maybe they'll listen! ) I dunno WHY they refuse to address this. because honestly, these days I see more vigilance guardians then defence guardians.

 

heck even among the tanks an aweful lot seem to insist on useing a Hybrid tree so they can get talents like unremitting etc that are almost priceless for tanking.

Edited February 3, 2013 by BrianDavion

[Marb]

You seem to be bringing preconceived notions of tanking from some "other" games into this one.

 

You are acting like taunting is "bad" or means you "failed" in some way as a tank.

 

I come from another MMO (LOTRO) where a taunt only holds the mob and doesn't build additional threat. As a tank I had to WORK for my aggro. I get it. In that game if you taunt it means you "failed" at your job.

 

Taunting constantly to maintain threat is how THIS game works. The taunt DOES build threat and is a valuable skill that should be used in a rotation as opposed to regulated to "oh shoot I messed up I better taunt".

 

In order to hold threat without taunts in THIS game the tank will have to be doing somewhere around 1,000-1,300k DPS which just isn't going to happen.

 

I've tanked TFB HM (we as a guild have been 5/5 for a bit now) and I fully understand the mechanics of all the fights in this game and from all the various roles. (I raid lead and will tank, dps or heal based on group makeup)

 

BECAUSE you are constantly tank swapping on most all of the Bosses in TFB the tanks are able to maintain threat on DPS that are, when well geared and min/maxed correctly, pulling some really crazy numbers right now.

 

IF you are able to maintain threat on ANY class of tank without using taunts constantly then you need to have a nice long talk with your DPS about why they are only doing 1,200-1,400 DPS.

 

I can have as many as three DPS'rs in one of my Guild runs that can pull over 2K during a boss fight.

(2,400 spikes are fairly common)

 

Unless I do a very efficient DPS rotation constantly and using every skill in my bag o' goodies (including taunts) I just will not be able to hold threat vs. DPS pulling numbers like that.

 

But I somehow manage to.

 

And I have explained how.

 

Hope it helped.

 

I know how taunt works, and you haven't discovered some magical secret to tanking on a guardian. Taunt fluffing is a crutch for pt's and assassins, plain and simple. Does it bother you that an assassin or pt has to only taunt once at the right time to have a solid lead on threat?

 

I'm not saying that your solution is not viable, quite to opposite, its flat out required for guardians to get any grasp of a mobs attention, but this is not how it should be. Rolling taunts back to back is not intended design.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Marb

[Ailie]

Taunts shouldn't be used in rotation, they should be saved for when it's needed to be used (ie swapping, agro dumps etc)

 

If one particular tanking class needs to use a taunt in their rotation to hold aggro, there is a problem. Guardian tanks in our guild have this problem. Our Vanguards and my Shadow do not.