Jugg Tanks are Broken... Left in the dust

[AgustusCaesar]

I am writing this in protest on How the tanking side of the Jugg tree Has been left behind By all the up dates in the game.

 

There are more DPS Juggs than TANKING Juggs by far. In END-GAME ops, The only tanks you find are ASSASSIAN Tans. Why is this ,??? Where are the juggs usable return heals ( not that garbage that makes you loose aggro,.) , Where is his 1 min Deffance cool downs? No Break Combat, ? Where is his higher agro table.? Or more dps,? Somthing to keep fully geared Mars , and assains, and BH, and.. well every one from pulling agro from the Jugg tank. Sorry Guys but the back hand just aint cutting it.

 

 

I was told that the Jugg was Based on " Darth Vador" , and the assassian was based on " Darth Maul ".

 

If you put them both in this game, How would the 2 compair. ???? Vader would be less than dissapointing.......

 

Please Fix Jugg Tanking......

 

 

Sincerely

 

Broken Dusty Jugg

[Thundergulch]

Somthing to keep fully geared Mars , and assains, and BH, and.. well every one from pulling agro from the Jugg tank. Sorry Guys but the back hand just aint cutting it.

 

Maybe look at your rotation? Spec? Gear?

My Marauder is 1/2 DG, 1/2 Campaign, and I almost never pull aggro from our main Jugg tank when I go all out at the beginning of a fight,and he has no DG gear, but is full Campaign/BH

[LiquidSix]

I've been playing a Guardian Tank since the game was released and been tanking in progression raid groups since March, I wouldn't say it's broken, but it isn't as "good" or "popular" as a Sin tank or PT tank. I've played all three and Jugg tank rotations are easily the most complicated to learn and be effective at holding aggro. PT tanks are the easiest in my opinion. My only advice would be to check your rotation, I never loose aggro and the two sents in my group never pull off me and they're in full DG (I'm half DG, half Campaign/BH. I'm not, however, one of those silly 32k tanks.

[abokado]

Yeah.. tanking as a jugg just isn't as sexy. You cannot go into stealth and CC an enemy in your path to quickly skip trash mobs, your aoe sucks, it's ridiculous. And it's extremely difficult to play. I tried tanking for a bit because I got fed up with the waiting times for the daily fps and wow, I am such a bad tank. Don't even know what the problem is. I know what a tank needs to do, but people are dying left and right and somehow all my skills seem to suck terribly and there is just no flow at all, it's just.. a huge cramp. Went back to damage dealing because I felt like a huge disappointment. Better let the assas tank, they can stealth and have a CC. God, I wish I had a CC or stealth. You'd think some mighty sith warrior in heavy armor would be a good tank, pfft...

[bbare]

Tanks are fairly balanced in this game. If you struggle as a juggernaut tank, it is more due to player skill than class.

[Arlanon]

Soresu Form grants you extra Threat.

 

Otherwise, try running with a hybrid spec to squeeze out some damage. That top tier ability in Immortal you can do just fine without. That Rage is better spent on Scream, Smash, or Sweeping Slash (or whatever it's called). Using that will help you hold aggro on multiple mobs.

 

What also helps is if your DPS coordinate, use half a brain (collectively), and focus targets, preferably the one you are actually fighting. Most DPS are too dumb and/or lazy to do this. If they get aggro and die, don't think of it as your fault, because it isn't. It is theirs.

 

Also, take a look at your mods and enhancements. One thing to consider is that the more Defense you raise, the less use you are getting out of Shield and Absorb. Because on a successful Defense, Shield never even rolls at all. So don't worry too much about capping out Defense AND Shield+Absorb. Pick one and skimp on the other. You can put some Power in its place.

 

This will require some min/max of your gear. Use your imagination and come up with a build that appeals to you. I personally use Defense mods in every piece, and trade Shield+Absorb for Power, Crit, and Surge. I do still have base 20% Shield+Absorb just from using a Shield Generator with Soresu Form. That's pretty good stat weight for wearing one single piece (the Shield Generator).

[Icebergy]

Tanks are fairly balanced in this game. If you struggle as a juggernaut tank, it is more due to player skill than class.

 

Your first sentence is blatantly incorrect, but your second is correct. Guardians/Juggs are definitely lacking in some areas compared to the other tanks, but if you are a good player, you can overcome.

 

Also no one should be specced into Defense or Immortal at this point, the tanking tree is awful. Spec 17/22/2 for best results.

[Marb]

Your first sentence is blatantly incorrect, but your second is correct. Guardians/Juggs are definitely lacking in some areas compared to the other tanks, but if you are a good player, you can overcome.

 

Also no one should be specced into Defense or Immortal at this point, the tanking tree is awful. Spec 17/22/2 for best results.

 

Actually all the tanks ARE remarkably well balanced. The jugg has some quality of life issues, but so does the assassin (dark ward charges, can't self heal on the move) and the powertech (lacking a third proper defensive cooldown).

 

Juggs are not the underdogs, I think that the relative popularity compounds the limitations of the class, and in return Juggs are left with a reputation of not being able to hold threat compared to the other two tanks. While juggs do have the lowest threat ceiling proper use of taunts negates this disadvantage, its not asking a great deal from the player, as this tactic is viable and useful on any of the tank classes.

 

If you think a bad player can just waltz in and tank the town on an assassin, you couldn't be more wrong. The powertech however..

Edited January 28, 2013 by Marb

[Omophorus]

Actually all the tanks ARE remarkably well balanced. The jugg has some quality of life issues, but so does the assassin (dark ward charges, can't self heal on the move) and the powertech (lacking a third proper defensive cooldown).

 

They are quite well balanced from a mitigation perspective (with Vanguard/PT taking the most damage, oddly enough, given a high enough level of play/gear from all 3 classes). Shadow/Assassin and Guardian/Juggernaut require nearly identical healing overall. Juggy will scale slightly better than Assassin going forward, as self-healing is a smaller component of overall mitigation, and Assassin's self-healing will not continue to scale with content much longer.

 

They are nowhere near balanced from a threat-generation perspective, especially on multiple targets. Single target threat can easily be compensated for by taunts, but Juggy is the only tank AC that almost has to rely on them, whereas both PT and Sin can largely tank purely via DPS after an initial taunt or two.

 

They are not balanced from a resource-generation perspective either, though player skill contributes hugely to this.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Omophorus

[generalarchie]

Does your jugg die faster then usual? Not sure if it is the armor

[Marb]

They are nowhere near balanced from a threat-generation perspective, especially on multiple targets. Single target threat can easily be compensated for by taunts, but Juggy is the only tank AC that almost has to rely on them, whereas both PT and Sin can largely tank purely via DPS after an initial taunt or two.

 

They are not balanced from a resource-generation perspective either, though player skill contributes hugely to this.

 

Just to clarify, they absolutely have threat issues but I think they are singled out as unique snowflakes far too much. I don't think requiring player skill to overcome challenges of the rage system is a design flaw in the class. I see power-techs are plain broken because of how laughably stupid simple they are.

[BlownSi]

Damage output when compared to the other two tank classes is where the issue lies, plain and simple. That said, I have tanked with my Sin and Jugg and I will say that I have to work much harder on the jugg for threat production (again, caused by said issue above mostly), BUT......I fully feel survivability on the Jugg is second to none. Can you tank end game content like HM TFB and NiM EC with a Jugg....Yes and I have done it without much issue. The healers actually said I am a little bit easier to heal comparably speaking.

 

It is glaringly obvious when comparing the damage output of my Jugg tank compared to our similarly geared PT or Sin tanks in my guild that Jugg tank damage is the issue. 15%-20% lower overall damage over the course of an encounter compared to the other two is just way to much to have to try and make up for with rotation and player skill, though it CAN be done.

[Arlanon]

Skimp a little on Shield+Absorb. 40% is fine, grab some Power Enhancements.

[KVork]

Damage output when compared to the other two tank classes is where the issue lies, plain and simple.

 

Here you go.

 

Juggernaut Immortal (full tank spec, not this ridiculus hybrid that only proves a point) does 150dps less than similary geared PT and around 200-250 dps less then similary geared Assasin.

Juggernaut has a more survivability, especially compared with PT, thats true.

 

I play all tank classes and must say that I can see what devs thought, each tank has its roles, but at the same time Juggernaut/Guardian tanks are without doubt broken, damage really should be buffed instead of nerfed (it was lately).

Problem lies partially in gear progresion, better gear in ops, bigger gap between tank and dpsers. But mostly it lies in terrible Immortal skill tree for juggernaut, it is just crappy.

 

Last tier?

Some rage generation I dont really need, Enrage CD reduction on a skill I almost never use, 4% dmg reduction on elemental, whilst hybrid has 4% on all damage...

And then recently nerfed Crushing Blow ..... and some time earlier nerfed aoe taunt skill booster because of pvp whine.

 

Fckn joke, and bad one.

[Arijharn]

In my opinion, against single targets we're golden, unless someone massively outgears me, I should have no problem maintaining threat, or don't have in my experience. Aoe tanking is a massive pain in the *** though, I feel like I depend upon Smash with the 4 stacks of sunder and sweeping strike and even then it's quite difficult. Pitty most of the game seems to be mobs though.

 

I don't know why you wouldn't take Crushing Blow though, it's one of our highest damage abilities, is a rage dump, and has a secondary effect on 5 sundered targets which is a nice aoe threat ability.

[wetslampigduex]

L2Taunt stack. Tanks are pretty well balanced. The Jugg tank in my guild can hold aggro off of me (Powertech Full d/g) i dont ever pull once and i pop everything as soon as the fight starts.

 

Take a step back to 5 meters when you taunt it boosts aggro to 130%, wait a good 3-5 cooldowns to use your first taunt(single taunt). When that is dropping off use your aoe. Then when your aoe taunt is about to fall off use one more single taunt. After that you can continue using your single taunt on CD(except for Zorn and Toth fight) but chances are if you have the proper rotation down you shouldn't have to taunt again.

 

The reason you don't pull with taunt is simple.(if someone is wondering) By using it at the pull your boosting your threat 110%-130%(depending on range) of 0. So really its just a wasted ability. By waiting a few cooldowns it allows all the DPS to gain threat and you boost your threat off of theirs.They dont actually steal threat from you until they are 130%, so by waiting until just about the last second they're gonna be about ~120% above you then you step back to 5 meters taunt and your 130% above them. If your always running with the same group you should have a pretty good feel of when they normally pull threat. As a tank myself in my main group there is a PT dps pushing 2k dps, at the start of the fight i listen closely because i know right after i hear him laugh a second or two later he's going to be tanking. So as soon as i see or hear that second rail shot fire off im using my first taunt. By the time that single taunt wears off chances are if he's getting procs he's gonna pull as soon as it wears off cause everyones OCD's are still up. That's why you use your AOE at this point. Like i said if your rotation is solid you shouldn't need to taunt again cause the OCD's should have worn off, but it's always safe(if the fight allows it barring tank swaps) a 3rd taunt(your single) will assure you do not ever loose threat.

 

I do agree it's tougher threat generation on a jugg. But, they are far from broken. Great DCD's also single target threat isn't all that terrible.

[AgustusCaesar]

Ok Guys, Allow me to clarify.

 

Juggs are being out paced With Gear. (DPS/Aggro Generation vs Tanking aggro.)

 

With the increased DPS from the other Classes Gear, There Should of been an increase to the juggs Pulling ability to compensate. I am not the only one who agrees with this, It becomes Harder to hold aggro on Mobs.

 

Single targets are easier to maintain control of,But when fighting mobs you have control for about 7 sec.

 

This is not a problem for PT/SIN tanks bc Alot of there Aggro Generation are based on Dps. So there aggro level inherently goes up with every increase in gear.

 

If every other tanking class had to work as hard as a jugg to tank there would not be an issue, But when you have to Resort to hybrid builds, and have to have a perfect rotation, ...ect. And other classes don't have to struggle the same way. Something is wrong.

 

This is not a questions of my gear, Im in DG/CAMP. And i have worked every rotation i can get my hand on.

 

A player can only do so much, A little love from Bio. Would go along Way.

[Zuuf]

I play a juggernaut tank as my main in operations. My guild is mostly geared in 63 armorings/enhancements/mods and we spend our time in NiM Denova and HM Terror. The only way I can keep threat over one of my marauder buddies who is putting out 3k dps, is a combination of guard, using a hybrid tree specialization, sacrificing some of my tanking gear for dps gear and liberal use of taunt.

 

A couple of things that would go a long way to help juggernauts would be to give us a low damage range ability that doesn't have a long cooldown and increasing our base damage if fully immortal. Until something changes, I feel obligated to run a bastardized tank spec, not because I want to, but because it's the only way to keep up with the dps scaling.

[Khayleth]

I've been playing jugg since release and I've noticed the issues that you guys have mentioned. The threat issue is not new even spamming taunts, it's been with the class since day 1 and while the buff to Soresu certainly helped offset it, as people gear up the issue is popping up again, here is the problem and will always be the problem (the jugg/guardian issues are identical to the same issues that warrior faced).

 

Jugg tanks do not scale as well as other tanks.

 

Tanking with my raid group at the time (pre-soresu buff when we cleared all nightmare modes before EC gear became available) I found myself losing threat against people I used to hold it fine against, taunting on cd, guarding the person, even using intercede, once they began to gear up in full rakata. Once they maxed out and started augmenting their gear I found myself unable to keep up with them at all despite being in full rakata myself. Right after the soresu buff came out though things were totally fine, could hold easy without issue but looking at that now makes it seem like more of a bandaid fix then anything else. Depending on the power inflation in the xpac they are either going to have to A) buff Soresu again or B) go the WoW route and make threat irrelevant or C) make jugg tanks actually scale better.

 

High threat moves (backhand/pommel and crushing/guardian attack I can't remember the name of) do a static amount of threat, that threat does not change based on gear. At tionese it generates X amount of threat and in DG it also generates X amount of threat and while the damage does increase as you gear up, it is largely not noticeable. They need to remove the "high threat" and up the damage or make the amount of threat scale better, give the threat generated a power/strength modifier so that increases in increments as you gear up but don't make the modifier so large that the increase is exponential.

 

Addendum: Also, I don't think the soresu form's -1 rage on assault and sundering is really needed anymore.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Khayleth

[AgustusCaesar]

Thank You For Both of you confirming my point.

 

I could not of put it into any beter words my self.

[Aluvi]

Top tier tank abilities for juggs need more threat. Jugg tanks need more dps. 31 point jugg tank is not viable end game.

[KVork]

I've been playing jugg since release ...

 

High threat moves (backhand/pommel and crushing/guardian attack I can't remember the name of) do a static amount of threat, that threat does not change based on gear. At tionese it generates X amount of threat and in DG it also generates X amount of threat and while the damage does increase as you gear up.

 

Sorry but you are wrong here.

 

"Generates high amount of threat" means actually +60% threat on 'crushing blow' and +100% on 'Backhand', stacks with soresu +100% giving you (in theory, and I am sure only about juggernaut) 100%+100%+60/100%=260/300% total threat vs damage on this attacks.

"from my nightmare denova - Crushing Blow (top tier immortal skill)

total damage 82841

total threat 215448"

 

Backhand, same ops

dmg 31142

threat 93469

 

So it scales with damage, just damage doest scale up because of poor skill balance on this tree.

 

whole log

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/90467de1-4545-41b1-bad3-64bdc63ed29f/player/1#d=0,b=1

 

Cheers.

 

PS. Yes, by all means buff damage on both of those, quick fix: give us back extra damage with 5 sunders on.

Edited February 1, 2013 by KVork

[AgustusCaesar]

Soooo Now what..??

 

Most people agree that there is some kind of tweeking that could help the Jugg out.

 

 

How do we get BIO to take a look at the problem ..?

[paowee]

Tanks are fairly balanced in this game. If you struggle as a juggernaut tank, it is more due to player skill than class.

 

^ QFT

 

Wearing a 58 hilt and 61 modded gear (campaign pieces) I can hold my own versus a fully min maxed 63 modded dread guard geared Marauder. (i Intercede + Mara's threat dumps)

 

P.S. I'm referring to Jugg as a tank in general. I agree that the immortal tree needs some help. >_<

Edited February 4, 2013 by paowee

[Elyxin]

Soooo Now what..??

 

Most people agree that there is some kind of tweeking that could help the Jugg out.

 

 

How do we get BIO to take a look at the problem ..?

 

I think that's the issue. our damage was nerfed with no reason why, no official explanation as to the logic or reasoning, and even after a general consensus that the damage reduction has impacted us greatly and needs to be changed, no word whatsoever about behind the scenes discussion, or even the idea that they recognize that we feel as a player-base it's an issue.

 

In their defense, class development has crawled to a standstill in general...so I don't feel singled out in that regard, but even to that...they need to start communicating about development of the classes. there is no class in the game that if perfectly balanced at the moment, so I find it really odd that they haven't even brought the general subject up yet.

 

I just got done with a Turbine podcast where the devs outlined some general goals for the year. among them class design was a big one. and In all honesty I feel that the classes in that game are far better off then many of them in this game. Just because classes aren't broke to the point that they don't' work doesn't mean that they dont need to be worked on.

 

Immortal needs an overhaul. the sheer fact that our supposed "PvE" DPS tree actually functions better as a tank tree, not to mention our PvP tree almost is better for DPS in PvE....it's all mixed up. not saying that vengeance and Rage aren't in sweet spots...they are...it's just backwards that we have to spec into a DPS spec for better mitigations and more threat (via sheer damage increase).

 

Now that you think about it, it's sad that we already KNOW that damage is the answer...were speccing into a damage focused spec for better threat, even though it penalizes our rage production. The devs should really stop looking at their metrics, and start looking at what players are actually DOING in game to get the results we need.

 

We simply need more damage. Immortal needs a rework, but at it's most basic form, we need more damage.