Why are all the planets so linear?

[Vis-Tecum]

Even finding DataCrons is a on rails experience, as the only way to get to them is path bioware designed you to go down with no alternative roots.

 

so if there is a data cron in the middle of a lava lake, in a area that is not for questing or anything else but scenery but there is only 1 invisible bridge to get to it. by your deffinition that is linear even though you can go there when ever you want with out being prompted, gated by a accomplishment, or locked out of the next content untill you get that datacron. its all just because there is only one bridge to get to the datacron or one place to fall to get that egg or one open door that leads to that chest so it is on rails... interesting

 

edit: im just talking about the [absolutly not on rails] datacron hunts not the questing

Edited December 10, 2012 by Vis-Tecum

[noodlehaus]

I have 2 questions for everyone:

 

1. If i roll a smuggler, can i choose to level in Tython instead of Ord Mantell?

2. Are there several planets that offer the same level ranges giving me options to choose where to level?

[Vis-Tecum]

I have 2 questions for everyone:

 

1. If i roll a smuggler, can i choose to level in Tython instead of Ord Mantell?

2. Are there several planets that offer the same level ranges giving me options to choose where to level?

 

of course you can thats why there is no story in the game so you can level where ever you want and and not have to worry about continuity because your just playing every other mmo that exists... DUH

 

I have 1 question for you, is it expensive to live in a cave?

Edited December 10, 2012 by Vis-Tecum

[noodlehaus]

of course you can thats why there is no story in the game so you can level where ever you want and and not have to worry about continuity because your just playing every other mmo... DUH

 

I have 1 question for you, is it expensive to live in a cave?

 

i'm gonna quote this just to keep a copy safe. have you tried rolling a level 1 smuggler and going to tython at say level 3? have you tried starting a jedi and going to ord mantell at level 3?

 

have you tried leveling elsewhere after your starting area other than coruscant or dromund kaas?

 

my cave has AC, common pool for other cave-owners, a jacuzzi, xbox360 + kinect, a desktop, oven, fridge and fiber optic broadband, just to name some of the things it has. i know, it's not much, but i manage.

[Vis-Tecum]

i'm gonna quote this just to keep a copy safe. have you tried rolling a level 1 smuggler and going to tython at say level 3? have you tried starting a jedi and going to ord mantell at level 3?

 

have you tried leveling elsewhere after your starting area other than coruscant or dromund kaas?

 

my cave has AC, common pool for other cave-owners, a jacuzzi, xbox360 + kinect, a desktop, oven, fridge and fiber optic broadband, just to name some of the things it has. i know, it's not much, but i manage.

 

here you go

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

 

but you of course understand sarcasm because we both know your "questions" were not real questions just you being smug and my response was obviously me being snarky

Edited December 10, 2012 by Vis-Tecum

[noodlehaus]

here you go

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

 

ok, i'm getting dense.

Edited December 10, 2012 by noodlehaus

[MikeTheDuke]

I do not agree at all. They might seem that way, but there is nothing to stop you exploring any area on the planet, seeing if there is a quest available, performing it, doing what quests you want or not.

 

Most MMOs have a quest path that can take you from one area to another, so if you are new to the genre you will follow the quest path rather than just explore. Wow was like this, starting area, go to new area, and so on.

 

Tell me how this relates to a linear game like a COD where you following the defined area, you can explorer here and there but you reach pre-defined check-points and the game progresses. Tell me how it is like that.

[GalacticKegger]

I do not agree at all. They might seem that way, but there is nothing to stop you exploring any area on the planet, seeing if there is a quest available, performing it, doing what quests you want or not.

 

Most MMOs have a quest path that can take you from one area to another, so if you are new to the genre you will follow the quest path rather than just explore. Wow was like this, starting area, go to new area, and so on.

 

Tell me how this relates to a linear game like a COD where you following the defined area, you can explorer here and there but you reach pre-defined check-points and the game progresses. Tell me how it is like that.

I agree, though console games hardly merit comparison. I think most of the linearity complaints come from WoW players who were spoiled with flying mounts that allow the character to go pretty much anywhere they want. Take away the flying mounts and WoW becomes as linear as any other MMO. Edited December 10, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[ConradLionhart]

The reason why planets are linear is because they divided the "world" into multiple planets.

 

Back in vanilla WoW, they only needed 2 continents, Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor. And WoW can just focus on making this one world seamless. All the zones are seamless because they can be connected to one another.

 

SW:TOR has to create that galaxy feel and divide those zones into multiple planets. If you want them to create every planet to be as big as vanilla Azeroth, it may require too much development time.

 

Edit: What's done is done for the existing planets. But maybe for future planets, they can do what WoW did.

Burning Crusades introduced the Outlands. Maybe for SW:TOR's new explansion they can do something similar, just one planet, but make it a big seamless one.

Edited December 10, 2012 by ConradLionhart

[noodlehaus]

I agree, though console games hardly merit comparison. I think most of the linearity complaints come from WoW players who were spoiled with flying mounts that allow the character to go pretty much anywhere they want. Take away the flying mounts and WoW becomes as linear as any other MMO.

 

being a long time WoW player, what makes this game linear in comparison is when it comes to levelling and questing, you don't have any other path of progression but to go through the same sequence of planets your previous characters went through.

 

the order in which you go through planets is always the same. your only option is to skip some by out-levelling them, but the order is still the same.

 

in WoW, you can choose to level in different zones which have the same level range of quests/mobs. with or without a flying mount.

[The_Brick]

The reason why planets are linear is because they divided the "world" into multiple planets.

 

Back in vanilla WoW, they only needed 2 continents, Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor. And WoW can just focus on making this one world seamless. All the zones are seamless because they can be connected to one another.

 

SW:TOR has to create that galaxy feel and divide those zones into multiple planets. If you want them to create every planet to be as big as vanilla Azeroth, it may require too much development time.

 

Edit: What's done is done for the existing planets. But maybe for future planets, they can do what WoW did.

Burning Crusades introduced the Outlands. Maybe for SW:TOR's new explansion they can do something similar, just one planet, but make it a big seamless one.

I could see them having an expansion that only consists of one or two planets that are as big as Azeroth.

 

Kashyyyk and/or Trandosha would be nice. Kessel as well, but I couldn't see it being any bigger than Quesh.

[funkhouse]

I want more areas that have no real purpose but make the planet feel alive. Random caves, easter egg areas, etc.

 

why so my toon has to now move farther around the map because you want more space?

 

Reason people think wow is bigger area is becuase each map of 3 or 4..dont remember dont care, they are 1 big zone. Swtor is just as big just broken into sections.

 

Want to feel like its bigger. toggle the walk and dont use mounts, taxis and quick travel to get around. No point in having more space that holds nothing of importance to any class that is their on missions. Then there would be a flipside threads just like this complaining about open space zones with nothing in them.

[lklinga]

What's stopping you?

With few exceptions nothing is stopping anyone to completely ignore the quest directions and freely explore the whole planet. City planets are well tunnel like because they are city planets.

If you think it is feasible to have fully explorable Coruscant you must have bit unrealistic expectations

[Goretzu]

I don't know, I can agree the voice acting has it's moments but I can't say it's that good. There are a few lines so far in the Smuggler story that really made me shudder; but what really draws me up the wall is how often things are repeated. Just reused voice clips that feel way out of place, and not just in side quests. Often during what should be important story moments.

 

It's not amazing (there's too much of it for it all to be that good for a start), but it is very good.

 

SWTOR certainly isn't let down by that side of things.

 

But it is by static worlds and linearity.

[Prysha]

Uhm what?

 

The maps are big , there is things to explore ... and yet it takes me a few minutes to travel through tattooine or alderan... even bigger maps ? nah.. i like it how it is...

[Fornix]

I disagree. WoW, Rift, STO, CO, Aion, are not like that at all. LOTRO isnt either for that matter. Again, name another MMO that is linear and anti-explore as this one. Im sure there are some, maybe one's I havent played.

 

Well, I'd name WoW, Rift, Aion and LOTRO out of those that you listed and have played enough to know as to how linear those games are.

 

The main difference with them however is that in TOR there's even less reason to return through lower zones. This is caused due to the fact that they first of all, simply aren't along the way. And second of all, there's no real gathering skills bringing you there anymore as you simply use companions.

 

Regular gameplaywise however, in games such as woW, Rift, Aion and LOTRO you also just shift from hub to hub, with the very rare return to a previous hub.

 

STO and CO I haven't played sufficient to judge, however I'm not inclined to believe they're any different.

 

The one thing which does set TOR apart a bit is a lack of choise, for example in games such as WoW the stories are linear, however you may diverge into another storyline, bringing you through the linear experience in another zone. SWTOR does not have this option. Per level bracket, there's only one planet to pick from.

 

It'd be a good addition for future content patches to work on alternative leveling routes for classes, preferably as part of an expansion with introduction of a new class. However, interewave the possibility for already existing classes to diverge to those planets as well.

[Goretzu]

Well, I'd name WoW, Rift, Aion and LOTRO out of those that you listed and have played enough to know as to how linear those games are.

 

The main difference with them however is that in TOR there's even less reason to return through lower zones. This is caused due to the fact that they first of all, simply aren't along the way. And second of all, there's no real gathering skills bringing you there anymore as you simply use companions.

Regular gameplaywise however, in games such as woW, Rift, Aion and LOTRO you also just shift from hub to hub, with the very rare return to a previous hub.

 

STO and CO I haven't played sufficient to judge, however I'm not inclined to believe they're any different.

 

The one thing which does set TOR apart a bit is a lack of choise, for example in games such as WoW the stories are linear, however you may diverge into another storyline, bringing you through the linear experience in another zone. SWTOR does not have this option. Per level bracket, there's only one planet to pick from.

 

It'd be a good addition for future content patches to work on alternative leveling routes for classes, preferably as part of an expansion with introduction of a new class. However, interewave the possibility for already existing classes to diverge to those planets as well.

 

 

That's true, but SWTOR is very corridored too, with visable walls and invisable ones, much more so than I think any of the others.

 

Also quests in SWTOR tend to be VERY clustered, that happens in other MMORPGs, but SWTOR has seemed to go a stage further. In LOTRO for example there'll be quests that take you a long distance away, oftern to far flung places in the game word, SWTOR doesn't really do that.

 

Also in say LOTRO you do hit zone walls, but in many SWTOR zones there are so many walls within zones, now in city planets this may be difficult to avoid, and in starter planets like Tython/Korriban that may be want is needed, but it carrys on into later planets that could have been and felt much more open.

[anstalt]

Whilst total landmass in TOR may be theoretically quite big, most of it is channeled in to corridors which gives us the linear feeling. However, I'd like to point out one potentially simple improvement:

 

 

Remove quest indicators.

 

 

To expand on this, when LOTRO first launched it had no quest indicators. You'd pick up a quest, read the text and then it'd be up to you to figure out where to go. There were no arrows pointing the way. There were no giant marks on the map to say "come here and kill me!". as a result, reading the quest text was mandatory which made the whole thing much more immersive. It took some skill to figure out the clues in the text. But, there was also a lot of exploration done by everyone because you didn't know where to go. You'd check every building, every corner, every rock in the hopes of finding your specific quest. In this way, exploration was encouraged and everyone got to know all of the zones very well.

 

However, once they introduced the quest helper, that all went down the pan. Unfortunately, most people take the path of least resistance, so most people just accepted the quest, didn't read what they had to do, and just followed the arrows to their goals. Whilst helpful, especially to those who struggled to read the text and follow the clues, it also destroyed the feeling of openness. A common complaint in later expansions was "this feels too linear, im just going from hub to hub" where as in actual fact the quest design was mostly the same, it was just the quest helper that changed.

 

 

The same is true here: people skip the conversations, follow the quest indicators, complete the quests and hand in. There is no need to explore in the first place so the game feels linear right from the start. Then when you do try to explore, you hit exhaustion zones, mountains, invisible barriers etc.

[Master-Nala]

I have 2 questions for everyone:

 

1. If i roll a smuggler, can i choose to level in Tython instead of Ord Mantell?

2. Are there several planets that offer the same level ranges giving me options to choose where to level?

 

1) After you finish your class quest, what's stopping you?

2) Yes, after the capital planets you have at least two planets with level appropriate enemies/quests:

 

15-20: Capital, Taris-Balmorra

20-24: Taris-Balmorra/Nar Shaddaa

24-28: Nar Shaddaa/Tatooine

28-34: Nar Shaddaa (bonus)/Tatooine/Alderaan

35-38: Alderaan/Taris-Balmorra/Hoth, Quesh

38-44: Alderaan (bonus), Hoth, Belsavis

44-47: Alderaan (bonus), Belsavis, Voss

47-50: Belsavis (bonus), Hoth, Voss, Coruscant, Ilum

 

It gets better as you level which makes sense because levels take longer. But if you're suggesting you have only one path to level, you just aren't trying very hard to find another path.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Master-Nala

[Fornix]

That's true, but SWTOR is very corridored too, with visable walls and invisable ones, much more so than I think any of the others.

 

Also quests in SWTOR tend to be VERY clustered, that happens in other MMORPGs, but SWTOR has seemed to go a stage further. In LOTRO for example there'll be quests that take you a long distance away, oftern to far flung places in the game word, SWTOR doesn't really do that.

 

Also in say LOTRO you do hit zone walls, but in many SWTOR zones there are so many walls within zones, now in city planets this may be difficult to avoid, and in starter planets like Tython/Korriban that may be want is needed, but it carrys on into later planets that could have been and felt much more open.

 

Many players in MMO communities and also on these boards used to complain about quest givers sending them to the other end of the zone, just to return again. This is not unique to something which SWTOR tackled, but also was already seen for example in Cataclysm. You did your thing within a hub, and if you get sent further away you turned in the quest at a different figure.

 

Don't blame the devs for listening to community feedback.... advocate the community to make up their minds on how casual and laid back they truly want things .

 

What additionally plays a major part in it are features such as mounts, flight paths, return stones, etc. In the earlier days of MMO's those weren't available either or had very lengthy cooldowns. These greatly contributed to making MMO worlds smaller as well.

 

 

Yes, there are a lot of walls in SWTOR, however I do not feel those walls are out of place, it's part of the natural environment. Although I do agree that more could have been done to take things to the next level, I don't think world design such as commonly seen in older MMO's with predominantely flat plains, lack of canyons and mountains, etc is the answer. Cliffs and mountainsides are a natural part of landscapes, it's weird not to have them.

 

For example the lands of Azeroth in my opinion have always been too flat. Much rather I look at for example the world in Skyrim, where there are plenty of natural borders you run into. Obviously there are scale differences between the world of Skyrim and planets in SWTOR, but I take it goes without explanation that one cannot handcraft multiples worlds of that size and quality into an MMO without extending the timeframe even further.

 

 

 

1) After you finish your class quest, what's stopping you?

2) Yes, after the capital planets you have at least two planets with level appropriate enemies/quests:

 

15-20: Capital, Taris-Balmorra

20-24: Taris-Balmorra/Nar Shaddaa

24-28: Nar Shaddaa/Tatooine

28-34: Nar Shaddaa (bonus)/Tatooine/Alderaan

35-38: Alderaan/Taris-Balmorra/Hoth, Quesh

38-44: Alderaan (bonus), Hoth, Belsavis

44-47: Alderaan (bonus), Belsavis, Voss

47-50: Belsavis (bonus), Hoth, Voss, Coruscant, Ilum

 

It gets better as you level which makes sense because levels take longer. But if you're suggesting you have only one path to level, you just aren't trying very hard to find another path.

 

I'd definitely suggest there is only one path to level if you focus on questing. Unless experience for quests have significantly increased these days. However, during the first months of the game I completely all side quests, all class quests and all bonus quests and I only just hit 50. There was no option to skip a planet, there was definitely not an option to skip multiple planets to truly take a different path every time I'd play.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Fornix

[Master-Nala]

But it is by static worlds and linearity.

 

What game has dynamically changing worlds? Guild Wars 2 touted that and what they meant is that randomly, the same public quest you've done a dozen times before would pop up.

[Goretzu]

Many players in MMO communities and also on these boards used to complain about quest givers sending them to the other end of the zone, just to return again. This is not unique to something which SWTOR tackled, but also was already seen for example in Cataclysm. You did your thing within a hub, and if you get sent further away you turned in the quest at a different figure.

 

Don't blame the devs for listening to community feedback.... advocate the community to make up their minds on how casual and laid back they truly want things .

 

What additionally plays a major part in it are features such as mounts, flight paths, return stones, etc. In the earlier days of MMO's those weren't available either or had very lengthy cooldowns. These greatly contributed to making MMO worlds smaller as well.

 

 

Yes, there are a lot of walls in SWTOR, however I do not feel those walls are out of place, it's part of the natural environment. Although I do agree that more could have been done to take things to the next level, I don't think world design such as commonly seen in older MMO's with predominantely flat plains, lack of canyons and mountains, etc is the answer. Cliffs and mountainsides are a natural part of landscapes, it's weird not to have them.

 

For example the lands of Azeroth in my opinion have always been too flat. Much rather I look at for example the world in Skyrim, where there are plenty of natural borders you run into. Obviously there are scale differences between the world of Skyrim and planets in SWTOR, but I take it goes without explanation that one cannot handcraft multiples worlds of that size and quality into an MMO without extending the timeframe even further.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd definitely suggest there is only one path to level if you focus on questing. Unless experience for quests have significantly increased these days. However, during the first months of the game I completely all side quests, all class quests and all bonus quests and I only just hit 50. There was no option to skip a planet, there was definitely not an option to skip multiple planets to truly take a different path every time I'd play.

 

 

Over doing it certainly, not doing it at all though? No. In fairness it would be difficult to do on most planets (all but Hoth, Tattoonine and Ilum in fact) due to the corridorred nature, but still it would add to the illusion of openness.

 

I don't think it's really possible to recapture the open mapless discovery of say EQ1, AC or SWG these days, but it is possible to encourage exploration.

 

LOTROs managed it reasonable with decent zone design.

 

Rift managed it with ok zone designed and achievements and rewards for doing stuff (they encouraged you to climb that "unclimbable" moutain and you got a reward if you did, they didn't just surround it with invisable walls and exhaustion zones to stop you [for some reason]).

 

I think perhaps it was here that Bioware EA showed it's single player game history and it's lack of MMORPG experience.

 

 

1) After you finish your class quest, what's stopping you?

 

Unless they've changed it (and it has been a while since I last tried), many or even most of the quests don't show up for you if it's not your started planet.

[Goretzu]

What game has dynamically changing worlds? Guild Wars 2 touted that and what they meant is that randomly, the same public quest you've done a dozen times before would pop up.

 

This is exaxtly the problem though.

 

MMORPG world are static (they don't have to be linear though), and most MMORPGs go to great lengths to draw the players eye away from this staticness with a plethora of tricks (most of which have been around since EQ1 in 1999).

 

SWTOR largely seems to have disguarded these tricks, and unfortunately it shows.

[Master-Nala]

I'd definitely suggest there is only one path to level if you focus on questing. Unless experience for quests have significantly increased these days. However, during the first months of the game I completely all side quests, all class quests and all bonus quests and I only just hit 50. There was no option to skip a planet, there was definitely not an option to skip multiple planets to truly take a different path every time I'd play.

 

No you didn't. If you had, you would have hit 50 by Voss at the latest, assuming you only did Heroics once or not at all. One of the constant refrains early on was that there was too much content, that people greatly outleveled content.

[DuckKing]

It's a known fact on these forums that Master-Nala is a huge supporter of TOR and would defend this game to no end and would take a bullet for BioWare and EA. Master-Nala only sees everything one sided and in positive light.

 

Now theres nothing wrong with the written above but it has grown immensely annoying. We'll never get great things if people like the above support and defend bad decisions. Something to think about.

Edited December 10, 2012 by DuckKing