why does the squishiest class (sorc) have the least burst?

[Psirebral]

Is it faster? like 7 second set up? 6-7 second set up? that's fast when other classes can burst out harder than that in that amount of time? Even one of the classes that has a smash spec can kill someone in 6 seconds.

 

Actually sorcerer's setup can be faster than smash's but that all depends on how many people are in the storm, or how often the 30% lightning strike procs. Sometimes luck says you shall not have a chain lightning proc, at least warriors have a way to force a smash.

 

Also we aren't talking about other classes but warrior and sorcerer. I'm beginning to think you quoted Mike Tyson because you too share his attention span, and are just posting for the sake of posting.

[Devinia-Hex]

Sorc/Sages have to have the highest skill set of any other class because we put out the least damage while moving or instantly. What this means is we have to stand to channel or hard cast anything if your lightning (Lightning Damage is laughable Dots are laughable) Our hardest hitting spell Death field is on a 15 second cooldown and can hit up to 3 targets with good gear full WH min-maxed Elite weapons/off hand you can get up perhaps 4400 on a full WH target with no defensive CD's or Damage reduction stances.

 

You will be hit for full damage when buble is down you only have 1 root/stun break which all Melee have to keep you in place. I'm not sure who these people are who think we have the entire warzone map to kite or if they have every been in a battle ground when you try to kite 1 person it normally ends with getting more people on you and dying. The fact that you have to kite is the first fact that you can't out damage another class this goes for any class ranged or melee a sorc/sage if fighting a merc/commando will have to LOS in range vs range fight or die. VS Sniper/Gunslinger get LOS or die. VS any melee run and kite or die.

 

Your always running and one defensive cooldown can ruin the chance at burst you have but allows the enemy to hit you for full damage.

 

An Easy fix for this would be to limit the offense when a defensive cd is being used such as a jugg/maurader if they use a -40% damage reduction cd make their damage 40% less. That way we don't have to eat a 6-7k smash while they take near no damage.

 

At the same time up Death Fields Max Damage to be equal to smashes .

or give us Assasins boost to shock. We need something that hit's harder while mobile if you want to make us a mobile class.

Lightning Tree needs a lot of upgrades it's just worthless right now the bubble cc is a daze btw and breaks on damage which is worthless for a dot class and if you go that high in the lightning tree when you are Madness your gimped anyways.

[Xerain]

Sorc/Sages have to have the highest skill set of any other class because we put out the least damage while moving or instantly. What this means is we have to stand to channel or hard cast anything if your lightning (Lightning Damage is laughable Dots are laughable) Our hardest hitting spell Death field is on a 15 second cooldown and can hit up to 3 targets with good gear full WH min-maxed Elite weapons/off hand you can get up perhaps 4400 on a full WH target with no defensive CD's or Damage reduction stances.

 

You will be hit for full damage when buble is down you only have 1 root/stun break which all Melee have to keep you in place. I'm not sure who these people are who think we have the entire warzone map to kite or if they have every been in a battle ground when you try to kite 1 person it normally ends with getting more people on you and dying. The fact that you have to kite is the first fact that you can't out damage another class this goes for any class ranged or melee a sorc/sage if fighting a merc/commando will have to LOS in range vs range fight or die. VS Sniper/Gunslinger get LOS or die. VS any melee run and kite or die.

 

Your always running and one defensive cooldown can ruin the chance at burst you have but allows the enemy to hit you for full damage.

 

An Easy fix for this would be to limit the offense when a defensive cd is being used such as a jugg/maurader if they use a -40% damage reduction cd make their damage 40% less. That way we don't have to eat a 6-7k smash while they take near no damage.

 

At the same time up Death Fields Max Damage to be equal to smashes .

or give us Assasins boost to shock. We need something that hit's harder while mobile if you want to make us a mobile class.

Lightning Tree needs a lot of upgrades it's just worthless right now the bubble cc is a daze btw and breaks on damage which is worthless for a dot class and if you go that high in the lightning tree when you are Madness your gimped anyways.

 

I Stopped reading at the highlight. Seriously? Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

 

Sigh. If you don't know how to use just shock to keep up damage and keep someone off of you with sprint, the knock back, the snare, the stun, and the whirlwind... well you're bad. Specially when you have the advantage of ranged and you can sit back and free cast till someone comes for you.

[Invictusthetaru]

I know a lot of this discussion has been team based, which is fair, because 2 melees jumping on a sorc and smashing is insane. But in a 1 on 1 fight a sorc beats a smasher every single day, jugg easier so than mara.

 

1. Sorcs can cleanse force crush, therefore 1 of smashes singularity procs is useless.

 

2. they get 2 leaps, but getting them on CD isn't hard

 

Here's the scenario:

 

Instant singularity via berserk or the juggs rage builder, leap > knock back > force slow: either wasted smash or the game lagged and you get bubble bursted +1-3k dmg. reapply bubble + self heal to get them on CD

 

They immediately obliterate, force stun while walking away, DOT up, save root for end of stun, go to work

 

Force charge, knock back... etc....

 

Eventually this is a game that a good sorc vs. a good smash just eventually wins IMO.

 

Thoughts?

[Nonnolol]

class that has no defensive cooldowns and is squishest like sage should be highest hitting class not be stupid periodic crap

 

but no instead they give 8k aoe smash to class that has best cooldowns and best utility in game

 

roll black sage pre 1.2

 

What did sorc/sages lose with the 1.2 nerf? Was it as bad as the Merc nerfs? It's pretty obvious that casters have a problem in general due to the endless amount of interrupts/stuns/pulls/knock-backs etc.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Nonnolol

[SoonerJBD]

What did sorc/sages lose with the 1.2 nerf? Was it as bad as the Merc nerfs? It's pretty obvious that casters have a problem in general due to the endless amount of interrupts/stuns/pulls/knock-backs etc.

 

The most popular spec for Sorcs and Sages before 1.2 was a hybrid between the two DPS trees that gave them two instant AOE attacks that did really good damage. Force in balance/death field in the balance/madness tree is always instant. TK Wave/chain lighting in the TK/lightning tree has a 3 second cast time. A proc in the balance/madness tree made it instant and buffed its damage 20 percent. Those two abilities in tandem could do a lot of AOE damage. Force in balance/death field crits for 3k-plus on three targets. TK Wave/chain lightning could do close to 3k with the proc on up to five targets. Apparently, this wasn't fair, but it's OK for Sentinels and Marauders to AOE Smash for 7k on low cooldown.

 

In 1.2, they nerfed the hybrid spec by changing the proc so that it could no longer be used on TK Wave/chain lightning. Without the instant cast, TK Wave/chain lightning is all but useless, as the worst bad in PvP can interrupt a 3-second cast.

[Devinia-Hex]

I Stopped reading at the highlight. Seriously? Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

 

Sigh. If you don't know how to use just shock to keep up damage and keep someone off of you with sprint, the knock back, the snare, the stun, and the whirlwind... well you're bad. Specially when you have the advantage of ranged and you can sit back and free cast till someone comes for you.

 

 

Wow what server do you play on?

 

Some of you must be in a dream world if really think you can take even a decently played Maurader or Juggernaut in Rage Spec. I'm at 921 Bonus Damage and 75% Surge with full Elite War Hero and Exotech stims I'll be pushing 1,000 Bonus Damage and around 78% Surge I will still likely not hit for over 5k death fields unless I have the damage buff and my target has no damage reduction stance or cooldown up.

 

Max crit bonus is 100% so for a sorc or a sage you have a talent for Force in Balance and Death Field which gives you 30% bonus to crit your surge for that matter would only need to be 70% to reach 100% crit bonus on that ability which is your hardest hiting ability. Adding more surge will only boost crits on force lightning and crushing darkness other abilities. Death Field was nerfed and only hits on the high end for low 4,000 our sustained damage comes from force lightning spam and you have to plant your feet to do that.

 

You may feel because your damage tickles and people leave you alone to spam force lightning that you can kill other classes but really the second they give you a little attention you fold up like a cardboard box.

[Xerain]

Wow what server do you play on?

 

Some of you must be in a dream world if really think you can take even a decently played Maurader or Juggernaut in Rage Spec. I'm at 921 Bonus Damage and 75% Surge with full Elite War Hero and Exotech stims I'll be pushing 1,000 Bonus Damage and around 78% Surge I will still likely not hit for over 5k death fields unless I have the damage buff and my target has no damage reduction stance or cooldown up.

 

Max crit bonus is 100% so for a sorc or a sage you have a talent for Force in Balance and Death Field which gives you 30% bonus to crit your surge for that matter would only need to be 70% to reach 100% crit bonus on that ability which is your hardest hiting ability. Adding more surge will only boost crits on force lightning and crushing darkness other abilities. Death Field was nerfed and only hits on the high end for low 4,000 our sustained damage comes from force lightning spam and you have to plant your feet to do that.

 

You may feel because your damage tickles and people leave you alone to spam force lightning that you can kill other classes but really the second they give you a little attention you fold up like a cardboard box.

 

Oh because you don't use lightning when no one is on you to build procs? You don't use some form of one of your roots when someone gets near and run away? You don't use your snare then speed away? You don't use your cleanse to wipe snares off and run? You don't use whirlwind? You don't do any of this to keep distance to use lightning that has a snare on it to build up procs then drop damage.

[abhaxus]

Stop giving people a false image of what sorcerers can do, those numbers are almost completely imaginary. Fully min/max'd against BM and above, CL (in the hybrid spec) will only crit for 3k+ but never 4k, unless you're taking Reverberating Force and at that point it wouldn't even be considered a hybrid spec. I also doubt you wiped an entire group by yourself as even the most retarded people can spam CC on you while the others bang their head against the keyboard 'til your health is gone. The last example is entirely possible but... a warrior can do it with less build up and for 15k+ damage.

 

I don't doubt you're a good sorcerer but saying that you just roll over everyone with your CL and DF is a bit far fetched. If you have proof to the above statements then I will respectfully retract my point.

 

I find it hard to believe that anyone who has played hybrid has not done the same thing. The smile that spreads across my face when I see a player on my team die just as they've corralled a group of enemies together is epic. Force storm ticks for about 850 or 900 crit, I say a quick prayer to the RNG gods and hope I only have to let it tick twice, then dump reckless and CL and death field, sometimes force storm again to finish it off. It's not all the time, but I have done it in hybrid heal spec without DF before I specced into OP bubble.

 

I don't think anyone is or will argue that sorc DPS is as easy as PT or smash, but it is still possible to dominate. The ability to respec for free has greatly increased utility for sircs that can play both at a high level. I make no claims to being on a high level rated team, but in a RWZ it takes me about 20 seconds to respec and setup my bars, and I can output 375k dmg per half in voidstar, 400k + heals. And I am not even that good. I don't want bioware to make the class any better. It is fine where it is. Other classes need to be balanced, but sorc is fine where it is.

Edited December 4, 2012 by abhaxus

[jolleebindu]

Oh because you don't use lightning when no one is on you to build procs? You don't use some form of one of your roots when someone gets near and run away? You don't use your snare then speed away? You don't use your cleanse to wipe snares off and run? You don't use whirlwind? You don't do any of this to keep distance to use lightning that has a snare on it to build up procs then drop damage.

 

Of the "melee" classes that have these I believe only the Shadow snare is cleanse-able by all sage specs.

And getting away isn't so much the problem as staying away. Though, if you have a root on you that you cannot cleansed you are generally screwed - since it is either a spam-able root or the class has a stun that you need to save you cc breaker for.

 

On a side note, I think the roots attached to "force-style" attacks that have roots (i.e. the special saber throw, force leap) should be cleanse-able as force attacks.

 

Lastly, on the topic of burst

 

I would suggest a change to force imbalance. Making it an instant cast player targeted ability with a little of its damage taken from the splash and redirected to the main target.

 

Additionally I would buff the damage boost to the dots from FiB slightly and only make it apply to the main target.

 

Ideally this would result in a slight "burst" of damage at the front end of the rotation and at the end, once all of the dots are ticking. If anything reduce the base dot damage a little to compensate for this front and back-end heavy approach.

[jolleebindu]

I find it hard to believe that anyone who has played hybrid has not done the same thing. The smile that spreads across my face when I see a player on my team die just as they've corralled a group of enemies together is epic. Force storm ticks for about 850 or 900 crit, I say a quick prayer to the RNG gods and hope I only have to let it tick twice, then dump reckless and CL and death field, sometimes force storm again to finish it off. It's not all the time, but I have done it in hybrid heal spec without DF before I specced into OP bubble.

 

I don't think anyone is or will argue that sorc DPS is as easy as PT or smash, but it is still possible to dominate. The ability to respec for free has greatly increased utility for sircs that can play both at a high level. I make no claims to being on a high level rated team, but in a RWZ it takes me about 20 seconds to respec and setup my bars, and I can output 375k dmg per half in voidstar, 400k + heals. And I am not even that good. I don't want bioware to make the class any better. It is fine where it is. Other classes need to be balanced, but sorc is fine where it is.

 

Not picking on the style for unranked wz's, but in rated's single target burst is how your team lives and dies by single target burst.

[fungihoujo]

The most popular spec for Sorcs and Sages before 1.2 was a hybrid between the two DPS trees that gave them two instant AOE attacks that did really good damage. Force in balance/death field in the balance/madness tree is always instant. TK Wave/chain lighting in the TK/lightning tree has a 3 second cast time. A proc in the balance/madness tree made it instant and buffed its damage 20 percent. Those two abilities in tandem could do a lot of AOE damage. Force in balance/death field crits for 3k-plus on three targets. TK Wave/chain lightning could do close to 3k with the proc on up to five targets. Apparently, this wasn't fair, but it's OK for Sentinels and Marauders to AOE Smash for 7k on low cooldown.

 

In 1.2, they nerfed the hybrid spec by changing the proc so that it could no longer be used on TK Wave/chain lightning. Without the instant cast, TK Wave/chain lightning is all but useless, as the worst bad in PvP can interrupt a 3-second cast.

 

More or less this is the big problem. Before 1.2 a sorc had a bit more mobility because a- resurgence made DI instant, so you could get off heals, and b- CL wrath procs did some good damage.

 

The thing is- lightning strike just doesn't hit hard enough to be worth the wrath proc, and that's a problem. The 31 point talents are not used in any build because they do so little damage, that's a problem. There's very little casting mobility now- that's a problem. CL simply does not hit hard enough for a 3 second cast, that can't even be disputed as most hybrids that go high enough to have CL and even instant CL still do not include CL in their burst combos- that's a problem.

 

Things like force lightning, crushing darkness- these don't need buffs, they're fine as is. Affliction is a bit piddly, but it's a long duration dot that gives us procs and is widely applyable.

 

No dot protection- creeping terror should have that- thundering blast is too weak and should do double damage rather than auto crit simply because it's in a tree that you desire high crit rating in already because of how many crit procs there are.

 

Ability to heal under fire needs help- right now our protection for healing is the stun bubble- but when that gets nerfed you go back to being too easy to interrupt- a 2.5 second heal is way too long, it worked when it could be instant.

 

Top tier talents need a rework- instant DI procs need to come back- consumption needs a rework because even before stun bubble, healers had to spec hybrid lightning for better resource management.

 

Simply put- nearly everything can be interrupted, the class must always be moving yet relies almost fully on long casts. Lightning is simply unimpressive- LS sucks, CL sucks, TB sucks- the spec has root KB and stun bubble, outside of that it's a turret with subpar damage.

 

Other ACs do not have to sacrifice as much survivability to get damage, or as much damage to get survivability. One other thing is- pre 1.2 the hybrids had good flow. Lightning has terrible flow, you spam until you get procs, it's like playing a watered down frost mage. Madness has better flow but there you're getting procs you don't need once you wrath crushing darkness.

[Jakees]

i wish force imbalance made the next ten dots crit so i could smash all day