Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 As with your other assertion, I'm not sure it does, has this been legally challenged and deemed "not gambling"? As it's only been around for a few years not (for example for a long while you could pay point of sale tax on online items and no point of orgin tax, but after a few years that was closed up). actually grab bags have been around pretty much as long as cash shops for games... for over a decade at least in online games... also grab bags have been in ToR since it's release... there are tons of missions and vendors on every single planet that give you lock boxes that contain random items... yet all of a sudden now you get a bug up your *** about them because YOU don't like them so make up nonsense about gambling to try and justify it sorry but as I said it's the same deal as with packs of collectible cards which have been around for over a century and have never been classified as gambling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) actually grab bags have been around pretty much as long as cash shops for games... for over a decade at least in online games... also grab bags have been in ToR since it's release... there are tons of missions and vendors on every single planet that give you lock boxes that contain random items... yet all of a sudden now you get a bug up your *** about them because YOU don't like them so make up nonsense about gambling to try and justify it sorry but as I said it's the same deal as with packs of collectible cards which have been around for over a century and have never been classified as gambling Yeah it took about a decade for them to cotton on to the tax issue too, but have grab bag really been around in MMORPGs since 2002? Which was the first game to have them then? As for trading cards, you didn't answer my questions about them in the post above. Do you approve of exploiting kids then? Edited October 25, 2012 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yeah it took about a decade for them to cotton on to the tax issue too, but have grab bag really been around in MMORPGs since 2002? Which was the first game to have them then? As for trading cards, you didn't answer my questions about them in the post above. Do you approve of exploiting kids then? it's not exploiting kids in any way shape or form... they are getting exactly what they pay for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyryu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) My cry is for them not to. It's a cool addition and honestly is a not an issue for those who don't want to spend real money. Buy the items from the GTN. Please save the legal references, the absolutely do not apply here. I pay a monthly fee and part of my time is spent running OPS. I don't know how many I have run trying to get that one last piece of Rakata only to get the same dumb helmet. That's random, and I am playing on a subscription basis; therefore, I guess it's gambling. People have to pay for additional quick bar slots and this is what we are griping about? Edited October 25, 2012 by Hyryu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imhotep Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yeah it took about a decade for them to cotton on to the tax issue too, but have grab bag really been around in MMORPGs since 2002? Which was the first game to have them then? As for trading cards, you didn't answer my questions about them in the post above. Do you approve of exploiting kids then? Oh good god the exploitation of children with baseball cards??? ***. Will you please take your psychobabble BS and be gone with it. Are you even old enough to remember what collecting cards was like? The thrill of opening a pack and not knowing what you would get? You would have everything be mundane and predictable because it isnt fair that little Johnny bought a pack and got a Mickey Mantle card and little Timmy bought a pack and got 8 rookies no ones heard of. Thats life, its not fair and taking risks is part of it. Do you even have children? This is exactly what is wrong with society today. Quit trying to use the "for the children" defense for this crap that doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyryu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I also assume that those who are complaining never played Yugioh, Magic, Pokemon, or any trading card game where you pay money for a sealed pack that you have no clue what it contains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 it's not exploiting kids in any way shape or form... they are getting exactly what they pay for So why do they have to keep buying them then if they get exactly what they want? And if they don't then what is the pyschological drive being used against them? And do you think it is fine to use that on kids? Easy, easy questions to answer, yet you won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Oh good god the exploitation of children with baseball cards??? ***. Will you please take your psychobabble BS and be gone with it. Are you even old enough to remember what collecting cards was like? The thrill of opening a pack and not knowing what you would get? You would have everything be mundane and predictable because it isnt fair that little Johnny bought a pack and got a Mickey Mantle card and little Timmy bought a pack and got 8 rookies no ones heard of. Thats life, its not fair and taking risks is part of it. Do you even have children? This is exactly what is wrong with society today. Quit trying to use the "for the children" defense for this crap that doesn't matter. Trading cards are not a life lesson. They are a very cunning use of psychology on kids, to the end of companies profits, you approve of that, fair enough (the end justify the means, I guess, so you would have fit in well in the tobacco industry a few decades ago I'm sure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 So why do they have to keep buying them then if they get exactly what they want? And if they don't then what is the pyschological drive being used against them? And do you think it is fine to use that on kids? Easy, easy questions to answer, yet you won't. I never said they got what they want I said that they got what they payed for... you are grasping so hard to try and push your silly pointless psycobabble bull to justify your seemingly irrational hatred for anything that has to deal with chance it's just ridiculouse at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utio Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 So why do they have to keep buying them then if they get exactly what they want? And if they don't then what is the pyschological drive being used against them? And do you think it is fine to use that on kids? Easy, easy questions to answer, yet you won't. How do you know they keep buying them? And how many have a gambling problem that has caused financial hardship? Simply put, they keep buying them because they like them, just like they keep buying sweets for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imhotep Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 So why do they have to keep buying them then if they get exactly what they want? And if they don't then what is the pyschological drive being used against them? And do you think it is fine to use that on kids? Easy, easy questions to answer, yet you won't. He said what they PAY FOR. You pay for a set amount of items. Sometimes they are good sometimes not but you still get what you PAY FOR. Just like baseball cards. Package says 8 cards and thats what you get. Again with this pyschobabble BS. You realize that people like you are weakening our society right? It teaches risk/reward. You buy the baseball cards because you want the cards. Sometimes you get what you were hoping for sometimes not but you always get whats promised on the package. Can you imagine if no one in life ever had to take a risk? Never failed? How would they ever know what success was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzel Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Please visit the following link: http://www.swtor.com/free There you will see the following: Cartel Coins Cartel Coins can be used for the purchase of great in-game items through the Cartel Market, coming soon! Loyal subscribers can spend their Cartel Coin rewards on items, including: Kowakian Monkey Lizard Pet Get one of these lively little mascots, a favorite of the Hutts. Sith Meditation Throne Harness the Dark Side of the Force™ in the most menacing manner with your own personal Meditation Throne. Lost Helm of Darth Nihilus Strike fear into your enemies’ hearts with this legendary mask from the mysterious Sith Lord who stalked the galaxy in the years after the Jedi Civil War. FALSE ADVERTISING You are not able to purchase any of these items with Cartel Coins. You have to purchase "Packs" which cost 360 Cartel Coins. All of the items ADVERTISED on the SWTOR web site are super rare drops from these "Packs". You can't just go to the Cartel Market and purchase them as advertised right here on SWTOR.com. In fact, the MAJORITY of new "Cartel" items are not for sale directly through the Cartel Market. They are only available through random Cartel Packs. Cartel Coins can NOT, "be used for the purchase of great in-game items through the Cartel Market" as advertised. It's a total and utter SCAM. Talk about NERD RAGE? Wait until people start spending their real life currency to find out they've been scammed. This is not how you treat your, "Loyal Customers". Wow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Why? Because technically the dude is right. They say you can buy this this and this, When in reality you have to buy grab bags to get said items. So they should have said, oh you can get the items by purchasing packs, and you'll get them if your lucky. But then again who would that excite? no technically and in every way that matters he is wrong and being a drama queen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross_Fade Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 no technically and in every way that matters he is wrong and being a drama queen... That's your opinion and I'll respect that, but I will also respectfully disagree with you because you're wrong. I'm not going to argue this in someone else's thread though. But he is right, rather he's being a drama queen or not, they did say they would be available and now its come to pretty much luck of the draw. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 People seem to be forgetting that the $15 subscription doesn't just cover things you can get on the Cartel Market (including and not limited to Grab Bags). Subscribers also get access to unlimited WZs, Ops and the new Section X area on Belsavis as well as other things I cannot quite remember. You aren't just paying $15 for a chance at a rare item, you are paying that money for the additional perks of subscribing stated by Bioware. I really fail to see why people are getting hot under the collar about this. ^^This. I couldn't care less about "grab" bags. It has nothing to do with my sub or the reason I play. It might be a fun aside if you choose to spend your CC that way. It might be a total rip off if you choose to spend your CC that way. lol! Either way, you choose. Now... the big development for subs is the significantly reduced price of the cost of mod swaps! That is something worth talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 That's your opinion and I'll respect that, but I will also respectfully disagree with you because you're wrong. I'm not going to argue this in someone else's thread though. But he is right, rather he's being a drama queen or not, they did say they would be available and now its come to pretty much luck of the draw. My 2 cents. nope . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) I never said they got what they want I said that they got what they payed for... you are grasping so hard to try and push your silly pointless psycobabble bull to justify your seemingly irrational hatred for anything that has to deal with chance it's just ridiculouse at this point Except it's not "silly" or "pointless", it's exactly why many things are licence and/or not allowed. There's nothing irrational about what I'm saying it's all very rational and straight-forwards. You seem to be taking a fairly irrationaly stance that people can exploit anything they want however they want, but that's fair enough if you genuinely believe thatm However you'll never get me or most people to agree with that though. Edited October 25, 2012 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 He said what they PAY FOR. You pay for a set amount of items. Sometimes they are good sometimes not but you still get what you PAY FOR. Just like baseball cards. Package says 8 cards and thats what you get. Again with this pyschobabble BS. You realize that people like you are weakening our society right? It teaches risk/reward. You buy the baseball cards because you want the cards. Sometimes you get what you were hoping for sometimes not but you always get whats promised on the package. Can you imagine if no one in life ever had to take a risk? Never failed? How would they ever know what success was? I'm not saying someone pays for 8 cards and only gets 7, that's not the issue, not even remotely so (other than perhaps as a bad attempt at a Strawman). The issue is why they contiune to buy them, what psychological principle is being used to prey on them and keep them buying. How do you know they keep buying them? If they didn't buy them why would they exist? And how many have a gambling problem that has caused financial hardship? In Europe, the rate of problem gambling is typically 0.5 to 3 percent, in the USA ~2.3%. Simply put, they keep buying them because they like them, just like they keep buying sweets for the same reason. Indeed, which is the same reason certain fast food outlets have large advertising slot in kids TV and produce toy meals. Kids are easy to exploit, much more so than adults, although the psychological principle remain more or less the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudenfusz Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I also assume that those who are complaining never played Yugioh, Magic, Pokemon, or any trading card game where you pay money for a sealed pack that you have no clue what it contains. The difference is that those games have a legal second market, if you want to buy a certain card, you just can do that without opening a single booster... so I am okay with the cartel packs should it be legal to buy the stuff directly from other players with real money (not just with credits on the GTN). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Penal Code Sec.319. A lottery is any scheme for the disposal or distribution of property by chance, among persons who have paid or promised to pay any valuable consideration for the chance of obtaining such property or a portion of it, or for any share or any interest in such property, upon any agreement, understanding, or expectation that it is to be distributed or disposed of by lot or chance, whether called a lottery, raffle, or gift enterprise, or by whatever name the same may be known. Penal Code Sec. 319.3. 319.3. (a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags. (b) For purposes of this section, the following definitions shall apply: (1) "Sports trading card grab bag " means a sealed package which contains one or more sports trading cards that have been removed from the manufacturer's original packaging. A "sports trading card grab bag" does not include a sweepstakes, or procedure for the distribution of any sports trading card of value by lot or by chance, which is not unlawful under other provisions of law. (2) "Sports trading card " means any card produced for use in commerce that contains a company name or logo, or both, and an image, representation, or facsimile of one or more players or other team member or members in any pose, and that is produced pursuant to an appropriate licensing agreement. Interesting, under californian law at least a trading card packet is classed as a lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzel Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Interesting, under californian law at least a trading card packet is classed as a lottery. Sweet... I wonder what the laws are regarding false advertising???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillack Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Please visit the following link: http://www.swtor.com/free There you will see the following: Cartel Coins Cartel Coins can be used for the purchase of great in-game items through the Cartel Market, coming soon! Loyal subscribers can spend their Cartel Coin rewards on items, including: Kowakian Monkey Lizard Pet Get one of these lively little mascots, a favorite of the Hutts. Sith Meditation Throne Harness the Dark Side of the Force™ in the most menacing manner with your own personal Meditation Throne. Lost Helm of Darth Nihilus Strike fear into your enemies’ hearts with this legendary mask from the mysterious Sith Lord who stalked the galaxy in the years after the Jedi Civil War. FALSE ADVERTISING You are not able to purchase any of these items with Cartel Coins. You have to purchase "Packs" which cost 360 Cartel Coins. All of the items ADVERTISED on the SWTOR web site are super rare drops from these "Packs". You can't just go to the Cartel Market and purchase them as advertised right here on SWTOR.com. In fact, the MAJORITY of new "Cartel" items are not for sale directly through the Cartel Market. They are only available through random Cartel Packs. Cartel Coins can NOT, "be used for the purchase of great in-game items through the Cartel Market" as advertised. It's a total and utter SCAM. Talk about NERD RAGE? Wait until people start spending their real life currency to find out they've been scammed. This is not how you treat your, "Loyal Customers". Wow... This. This is why I hate STO and games like that. You are almost forced via psychological hostage to "buy, buy, buy" to get he CHANCE on getting the items that have been advertised to us a nice amount before the PTS opening. Selling boosts and vanity I could care less. It's the fact that companies are now selling CHANCES to get a certain item that makes me annoyed. And before people go "oh didn't you ever collected trading cards as a kid, blah, blah, blah" I will say yes. And I will also say that is a different situation techincally. As a kid I collected the first and second portions (The original and w/e that series after it was called) of the pokemon cards for the sake of collecting (no one played the actual game where I lived). I did not though buy a billion packs to get just 1 card and cared less if I got a specific card or not. If I bought a pack, it was just to get more cards in general for my collection. (There is also the fact that for the most part a consumer knew the odds of getting a certain card or can just buy the card itself if they took next to no time ot find a place that does that) I knew of others who did though, and then in the end how they ended up worse than me because of the crap that is now being pushing in MMO's. But getting back to the 21st century / TOR..this is wrong morally, just like in STO. Because someone can do something doesn't mean one should; after I graduate and have my business management major, ect, I know I'd rather suffer a loss for X amount of time before selling my soul for profits, I could never live with myself for taking advantage of people in such a way and things like this should be frowned upon highly in society. Edited October 25, 2012 by Eillack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utio Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) I'm not saying someone pays for 8 cards and only gets 7, that's not the issue, not even remotely so (other than perhaps as a bad attempt at a Strawman). The issue is why they contiune to buy them, what psychological principle is being used to prey on them and keep them buying. If they didn't buy them why would they exist? In Europe, the rate of problem gambling is typically 0.5 to 3 percent, in the USA ~2.3%. Indeed, which is the same reason certain fast food outlets have large advertising slot in kids TV and produce toy meals. Kids are easy to exploit, much more so than adults, although the psychological principle remain more or less the same. 1. They exist because kids want them, but it doesn't mean they have a problem buying huge amounts. A large amount of people buying a few packs is more likely than a small amount of people buying huge amounts. 2. Are there detailed figures that prove there's a gambling problem with a large percentage of under 18's? 3. There's no harm in targeting kids if the parents are in charge. My nephews knew from an early age that they cannot get whatever they want. They can ask, but if the answer is no, that's final. Good parenting works so much better than laws and licensing. 4. Yes kids are easier to exploit, because they want it all. Fortunately they don't control the money. Edited October 25, 2012 by utio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross_Fade Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 1. They exist because kids want them, but it doesn't mean they have a problem buying huge amounts. 2. Are there detailed figures that prove there's a gambling problem with a large percentage of under 18's? 3. There's no harm in targeting kids if the parents are in charge. My nephews knew from an early age that they cannot get whatever they want. They can ask, but if the answer is no, that's final. Good parenting 4. Yes kids are easier to exploit, because they want it all. Fortunately they don't control the money. Not true, I know my brother and I, and a few other people had a debit card and had their OWN money in middle school. Not because our parents gave it to us. Actually, middle school was when my parents quit buying me things regularly because I had my own money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 1. They exist because kids want them, but it doesn't mean they have a problem buying huge amounts. A large amount of people buying a few packs is more likely than a small amount of people buying huge amounts. 2. Are there detailed figures that prove there's a gambling problem with a large percentage of under 18's? 3. There's no harm in targeting kids if the parents are in charge. My nephews knew from an early age that they cannot get whatever they want. They can ask, but if the answer is no, that's final. Good parenting works so much better than laws and licensing. 4. Yes kids are easier to exploit, because they want it all. Fortunately they don't control the money. California, at least, disagrees. To be honest it makes sense that trading card game ARE in fact licenced and legilsated, now I wonder if they virtual versions have caught up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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