The Trooper's Rank

[TalonVII]

Summary of Charles Boyd's comment: sometimes, to tell a good story in an engaging way, you need to take some dramatic licence. Or, if you like, it needs a willing suspension of disbelief by the reader/viewer.

 

So that's why it's the way it is. Nothing to argue about.

 

But while we're being picky.... here's something that really bugs my friends who were in the military: the incessant saluting of their characters by superior officers. In a real military, the subordinate salutes and the superior returns the salute. Never -- ever -- the other way around. Ever.

 

Now fight about that.

 

That and a private saluting a Sargent? *** is that?!

[Motovator]

Summary of Charles Boyd's comment: sometimes, to tell a good story in an engaging way, you need to take some dramatic licence. Or, if you like, it needs a willing suspension of disbelief by the reader/viewer.

 

So that's why it's the way it is. Nothing to argue about.

 

But while we're being picky.... here's something that really bugs my friends who were in the military: the incessant saluting of their characters by superior officers. In a real military, the subordinate salutes and the superior returns the salute. Never -- ever -- the other way around. Ever.

 

Now fight about that.

 

Yep. As someone who recently served 4 years in the Infantry (USMC) that right there is what got to me the most. Honestly I don't expect a video game to get all the real life fire team, squad organization and rank structures correct (its star wars and a game after all)... but for the love of god at least abide by the general rules regarding officers and enlisted. I recall early on in the story when I believe I was a Sergeant I had people saluting me and calling me sir.... XD. If say a PFC or LCpl were addressing me they would be calling me sergeant not sir. If I am an officer then yes they would salute me and I salute back and address me as sir.

 

it may not seem like a big deal to general public, but to us its a huge face palm.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Motovator

[dcaleb]

In regards to that, the Republic military doesn't seem to have two distinct ranking systems like the real world US military so there wouldn't be any protocol difference based on sergeant being a noncommissioned rank instead of someone with a commission.

[Branosaros]

Ooh! I got something!

 

In the British Military, the Colour Sergeant in the Coldstream Guards (Perhaps all the Guard regiments) is called "Sir" as if he were an offer as he deals with certain administrative duties as well as being a Non-Commissioned officer, so perhaps this is alike for the Republic Military. Besides ,the Trooper went to a military academy, which implies he or she already has a commission but not the rank to go with it, considering it's probably harder to be promoted in the Special Forces in the Republic. Also, the Trooper is Special-Operations, and as such perhaps the salute is just a sign of respect shown for that profession.

 

Also, could just be an automatically drilled in thing for people to say. I mean, Imperials call all Sith "My Lord" despite the fact that quite a few aren't Sith Lords.

 

Also, odd how the Imperial salute is just a click of the heels, straitening of arms and a puff of the chest, while the Republic one is the full blown "Lift of the visor".

[dcaleb]

Also, could just be an automatically drilled in thing for people to say. I mean, Imperials call all Sith "My Lord" despite the fact that quite a few aren't Sith Lords.

 

Yeah, but lowest sith can legally murder you for the lulz so it is really better not to chance offending them.

[Motovator]

Lol I suppose since we are talking about Star Wars we can justify what I and everyone else has said by using our imaginations. Again I don't expect a real life military simulator inside a Star Wars game, but I think its fair to expect to at least see the basics down with the enlisted properly addressing and saluting officers and not enlisted saluting enlisted.

 

In regards to the "clicking of the heels" as a salute the Empire does that is actually how we in the US Marines and Navy (not sure about Army) salute while in doors or whenever we do not have a cover on (we also never salute in the field) . I imagine its the same way for other countries around the world.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Motovator

[Branosaros]

Lol I suppose since we are talking about Star Wars we can justify what I and everyone else has said by using our imaginations. Again I don't expect a real life military simulator inside a Star Wars game, but I think its fair to expect to at least see the basics down with the enlisted properly addressing and saluting officers and not enlisted saluting enlisted.

 

In regards to the "clicking of the heels" as a salute the Empire does that is actually how we in the US Marines and Navy (not sure about Army) salute while in doors or whenever we do not have a cover on (we also never salute in the field) . I imagine its the same way for other countries around the world.

 

In Britain, our saluting works like so: long way up, short way down. Also, the hand remains vertical rather than horizontal. That's all I really know about the subject to be honest.

 

Of course, I'm not an army Veteran, I was just in the Combined Cadet Force in School.

 

Is it true that you're taught to start and end sentences with "Sir"? We only tend to end the sentence with Sir, though this is for both the military and funnily enough our School System...

[TalonVII]

In Britain, our saluting works like so: long way up, short way down. Also, the hand remains vertical rather than horizontal. That's all I really know about the subject to be honest.

 

Of course, I'm not an army Veteran, I was just in the Combined Cadet Force in School.

 

Is it true that you're taught to start and end sentences with "Sir"? We only tend to end the sentence with Sir, though this is for both the military and funnily enough our School System...

 

All I gotta say, call a US Soldier, Marine, Sgt "sir" you'll be lucky if he doesn't knock your teeth down your throat. Unless he's a Marine Drill Instructor and you're a recruit. Unless you like to do calisthenics till you puke pass out, get woken up just to do it all over again. I've seen it happen.

[Motovator]

I Is it true that you're taught to start and end sentences with "Sir"? .

 

No.

 

Sir or Ma'am usually only comes at the end of a sentence when addressing an officer. Like 'Good morning sir", "Yes sir", "No sir", or "Aye Aye sir". "Aye Aye" only applies to Marines and Navy of course.

 

If you are a junior enlisted (PVT, PFC, LCPL) and addressing an NCO like a Corporal or especially a Sergeant its the same thing, but you instead replace sir with their rank. Staff NCOs have both junior enlisted and NCOs address them by their rank the same way as well. And as the above poster pointed out calling a NCO "Sir" is treated as an insult.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Motovator

[TalonVII]

No.

 

Sir or Ma'am usually only comes at the end of a sentence when addressing an officer. Like 'Good morning sir", "Yes sir", "No sir", or "Aye Aye sir". "Aye Aye" only applies to Marines and Navy of course.

 

If you are a junior enlisted (PVT, PFC, LCPL) and addressing an NCO like a Corporal or especially a Sergeant its the same thing, but you instead replace sir with their rank. Staff NCOs have both junior enlisted and NCOs address them by their rank the same way as well. And as the above poster pointed out calling a NCO "Sir" is treated as an insult.

 

Ususally as a Corporal when some guy called me sir, I usually replied with the following? Sir, sir what I'm a Corporal. I work for a living.

[CitizenofArathor]

Trooper should have been made Colonel at the end of SoR imo. Why? Legacy Title "Fleet Admiral" to name one.

 

Military hierarchy in sci-fi just works different, for various reasons like the one the BW writer said.

Realistic to promote Trooper to Col.? As far as I'm concerned just as realistic as a JC & JK mashing a few

training droids on Tython to get a certificate to lead Republic Troops.

 

Also, it could be me but Navy companion Malavai Quinn gives me the idea he's getting to be more Group Captain than Captain as his/SW story develops. Whatever the case, the standing of the player classes attached to a hierarchy in comparison to companions is for the Trooper the lowest.

 

Trooper rank as it is a problem? not to me. As I said, can be made even higher. Benefit is that this would make for future story content where a large military force can be (again) attached to the CO of Havoc Squad.

[Branosaros]

Well, yes, we have the Sergeant thing to except for the Colour Sergeant of the Guards. He gets called Sir, everyone else is called by their rank if they're enlisted.

 

Hmm. I mean, the Imperial Agent is made a Commander, which I doubt is the Naval term but the Intelligence version of Colonel or a Naval Captain.

[higginsjf]

Here is how i take it as a rited army officer. Trooper starts out on ord and at the end of the story there you become Lt but recall at one point you have no rank then after a few missions you get the Sgt rank. The before you leave you get told your now heading Up Havoc so your now going to have to rebuild your squad back up. From playing through all the class I can say trooper by far has more of a team then the rest. if you do it in order you get your healer second Bh has theres at the first and the rest get theres later on in chapter 1 or by then of chapter 2. This dose not count treek. But main group of 5. But spec Ops dose a lot of work out side the main line of chain of command. they can get orders from a pool of officers or even the one who set up the op. But in star wars the hole chain of command is not like the real world. But here you are the one head of Havoc and you would be at the major briefing cause it is your job then to pick who you want to help care out the op Edited January 17, 2015 by higginsjf

[dcaleb]

Trooper should have been made Colonel at the end of SoR imo. Why? Legacy Title "Fleet Admiral" to name one.

Military hierarchy in sci-fi just works different, for various reasons like the one the BW writer said.

Realistic to promote Trooper to Col.? As far as I'm concerned just as realistic as a JC & JK mashing a few

training droids on Tython to get a certificate to lead Republic Troops.

 

Also, it could be me but Navy companion Malavai Quinn gives me the idea he's getting to be more Group Captain than Captain as his/SW story develops. Whatever the case, the standing of the player classes attached to a hierarchy in comparison to companions is for the Trooper the lowest.

 

Trooper rank as it is a problem? not to me. As I said, can be made even higher. Benefit is that this would make for future story content where a large military force can be (again) attached to the CO of Havoc Squad.

 

 

That quest annoyed me for an entirely different reason, the quest giver tells you at the start that it is a standard training exercise you go through to get certified to work with the military. Then he continues to be flabbergasted that someone is actually besting the droids and passing the program that he previously stated was standard training and acts like you are the first person to ever do so when he finally agrees to say you passed the course. Either there are a lot of jedi out there doing something they aren't certified for or he hates the player and was refusing to give you a pass when you earned it and kept heaping increasingly ridiculous tests on you to make you wash out.

[Master-Nala]

Trooper should have been made Colonel at the end of SoR imo. Why? Legacy Title "Fleet Admiral" to name one.

 

Military hierarchy in sci-fi just works different, for various reasons like the one the BW writer said.

Realistic to promote Trooper to Col.? As far as I'm concerned just as realistic as a JC & JK mashing a few

training droids on Tython to get a certificate to lead Republic Troops.

 

Also, it could be me but Navy companion Malavai Quinn gives me the idea he's getting to be more Group Captain than Captain as his/SW story develops. Whatever the case, the standing of the player classes attached to a hierarchy in comparison to companions is for the Trooper the lowest.

 

Trooper rank as it is a problem? not to me. As I said, can be made even higher. Benefit is that this would make for future story content where a large military force can be (again) attached to the CO of Havoc Squad.

 

I agree that the should have promoted the Trooper by now, to Colonel or hell even General after the SOR class mission. It seems a bit off to me that an officer who moved from Lieutenant to Major in the span of about a year, is stuck there.

 

As for the old topic, I never was concerned about the Trooper's relatively high rank or his/her briefings by Garza directly. For one, the Corellia finale, shows the Trooper in operational command of several Spec Force groups including his/her own. That suggest to me, that while Havoc Squad may only be six people, that they actually have more power in Spec Force and their ranks reflect that.

 

Because at the end, you have a Major, Captain, two Lts., a Corporal and a Droid and that's the weirdest collection of ranks, I've ever heard of for a squad.

[Jedi_riches]

I can't talk too much about real life comparisons, but look at what I have seen on TV (yeah just bare with me on this one.

 

The main 2 shows that spring to mind are:

 

The Unit - US special forces that is based on a book (if I recall correctly was a former soldier) and had "military experts" on hand during filming. This show showed the actual "special forces" being lead by a sergeant Major with the rest of the squad being sergeants.

 

Stargate - Apparently they also had a expert on hand during filming (well a air force expert as they cant really be an expert in traveling to other galaxy's), however it depicts a squad of 4 people being lead by a full bird Colonel along with a captain/major for the majority of the run (fair enough the other 2 members were civilians) and 2 lt Colonels for the last 2 seasons.

 

Both show a completely different squad set up (despite having experts on hand) of officers or NCO's so I really don't know which should be more believable.

[Ghisallo]

I can't talk too much about real life comparisons, but look at what I have seen on TV (yeah just bare with me on this one.

 

The main 2 shows that spring to mind are:

 

The Unit - US special forces that is based on a book (if I recall correctly was a former soldier) and had "military experts" on hand during filming. This show showed the actual "special forces" being lead by a sergeant Major with the rest of the squad being sergeants.

 

Stargate - Apparently they also had a expert on hand during filming (well a air force expert as they cant really be an expert in traveling to other galaxy's), however it depicts a squad of 4 people being lead by a full bird Colonel along with a captain/major for the majority of the run (fair enough the other 2 members were civilians) and 2 lt Colonels for the last 2 seasons.

 

Both show a completely different squad set up (despite having experts on hand) of officers or NCO's so I really don't know which should be more believable.

 

Rank structure is simply more subjective in the Specops world (at least it was...I'll explain). I was accepted for Selection 20 odd years ago but I chose to leave the service instead. Back then if and when I completed Selection and further training I would have been a Sgt in a unit of Sgts as the "new guy." Now the Army allows people to enlist with an 18X option so I suppose you could have a Spec (E-4) in a unit but before you could easily have an unit full of Sgts (E5-E-9) and depending on the mission lead by a O-3 even an O-4, not just O-1 or O-2.

 

He reason for this is the training and experience involved. In the rest of the Army you may be a 2nd LT of a Scout Platoon but then end up as a Company XO of a Transportation Company as a 1st Lt and then a Company Commander of an Armored Unit. The skill sets and amount of training in a Special Forces Unit take a huge investment in both time and money to develop.

 

So at least back when I was in you weren't really getting shuffled out of Specops Community until you were a Sgt Major as an NCO or a Major looking to get promoted to Lt Col and above. Even then they only shuffled you out when they could NOT find a Lt Col position in the Community. They just don't want to "waste" their investment. AND this is if you were lucky. When I first got out of Ft Knox I was the driver for the Battalion XO waiting for my slot in the Scout platoon to open up. He had been in the Special Forces. He said he was lucky to have gotten out of Specops so he was eligible to be promoted to Lt Col. Many of his contemporaries were basically "trapped" in the Community. In essence the Spec Forces Group didn't want to let them go. That meant however they were NOT getting promoted again. This meant that after X number of pass overs forced by their being "trapped" they were not "retained".

 

Keep in mine again this is the 1990's GW1 Army. Things have clearly changed more than a bit.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Ghisallo

[ellrochell]

Chief military adviser sounds like he has a bit more control than just of 6 people.

[Ghisallo]

Chief military adviser sounds like he has a bit more control than just of 6 people.

 

The number of people they would have "control" over is actually irrelevant, if the title is not being used as a euphemism like back in the early days of Vietnam. A "true" Military Advisor, even a Chief Military Advisor, only advises the person in "real" command. They have direct command of whatever "personal staff" they have, and the staffs can be quite small, depending on their purpose. Example; the Chief of Staff of the US Army is the principal military advisor and a deputy to the Secretary of the Army. They are also a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and, thus, a military advisor to the National Security Council, the Secretary of Defense, and the President. However they have NO Operational Command over Army forces proper. This falls to the Combatant Commanders who report to the Secretary of Defense.

[Cavell]

I can't talk too much about real life comparisons, but look at what I have seen on TV (yeah just bare with me on this one.

 

The main 2 shows that spring to mind are:

 

The Unit - US special forces that is based on a book (if I recall correctly was a former soldier) and had "military experts" on hand during filming. This show showed the actual "special forces" being lead by a sergeant Major with the rest of the squad being sergeants.

 

Stargate - Apparently they also had a expert on hand during filming (well a air force expert as they cant really be an expert in traveling to other galaxy's), however it depicts a squad of 4 people being lead by a full bird Colonel along with a captain/major for the majority of the run (fair enough the other 2 members were civilians) and 2 lt Colonels for the last 2 seasons.

 

Both show a completely different squad set up (despite having experts on hand) of officers or NCO's so I really don't know which should be more believable.

A Special Forces ODA is led by a Captain (O-3).

 

SEAL platoons are generally led by Lieutenants (O-3).

 

There were zero Delta officers on the ground during the "Black Hawk Down" Battle of Mogadishu.

 

In the special operations community, the overwhelming majority of door-kickers are enlisted, not officers. A more realistic Trooper story would've had you going from Sergeant to Master Sergeant or something. Major (O-4) would be a likely rank for the commander of an entire special operations company, not one individual squad. Of course, we sort of blew the doors off military realism when officers started lugging around guns that belong in a weapons platoon.

[Ghisallo]

A Special Forces ODA is led by a Captain (O-3).

 

SEAL platoons are generally led by Lieutenants (O-3).

 

There were zero Delta officers on the ground during the "Black Hawk Down" Battle of Mogadishu.

 

In the special operations community, the overwhelming majority of door-kickers are enlisted, not officers. A more realistic Trooper story would've had you going from Sergeant to Master Sergeant or something. Major (O-4) would be a likely rank for the commander of an entire special operations company, not one individual squad. Of course, we sort of blew the doors off military realism when officers started lugging around guns that belong in a weapons platoon.

 

A LOT of it has to do with size and/or importance of the operation though. Rangers are part of spec ops. Your Black Hawk down reference made me remember that Lt Col McKnight was the commander of the ground convoy.

 

All the above aside yeah...a Major leading a squad of Capt and LTs is a lot different than an ODA full of Sgts lead by a Capt.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Cavell]

A LOT of it has to do with size and/or importance of the operation though. Rangers are part of spec ops. Your Black Hawk down reference made me remember that Lt Col McKnight was the commander of the ground convoy.

He was a Ranger. The Delta ground commander was airborne for the entire battle in the C2 helicopter.

 

Rangers are part of the special operations community, certainly. They have the same squad/platoon/company/battalion/regiment organization, and accompanying leadership, as a standard infantry regiment, though.

 

All the above aside yeah...a Major leading a squad of Capt and LTs is a lot different than an ODA full of Sgts lead by a Capt.

Yup.

 

Bioware's just horrible at writing the military. Like, so horrible I think your average person would have to actively try to get it that wrong. Incomprehensible, fluid rank structures, NCOs being addressed as "sir" - by officers - squad support weapons being used as the standard arms for battalion-level officers, etc. Even granting it's the space military of the future, it's just wretched. They do it poorly here, they do it poorly with Mass Effect, I'm sure they'll do it poorly with the next remotely military-oriented game they make.

[Ghisallo]

He was a Ranger. The Delta ground commander was airborne for the entire battle in the C2 helicopter.

 

Rangers are part of the special operations community, certainly. They have the same squad/platoon/company/battalion/regiment organization, and accompanying leadership, as a standard infantry regiment, though.

 

 

Oh I know but they are also a tad "flexible" at times. I always thought a Lt. Col was a bit brass heavy for the convoy lead (as an example). From what a buddy told me that had more to do with McKnight saying "I am going to do because I can" though.

 

Yup.

 

Bioware's just horrible at writing the military.

 

I don't know if it is that or just the nature of the player base. I mean let's be real...people complain that Consular gets Jedi Master faster and gets on the Jedi Council. Sith Warriors are complaining that they feel like they just have a useless title now with the Emperor in parts unknown and the Inquisitor is a Darth. If the Commando was either ending as an E-8 (warrant officer wouldn't be totally crazy either if you think about it imo) with a lot of medals or at the end finally getting a battle field commission to LT (Capt a stretch but not as bad as Maj) the cries would be deafening from all the people that do not understand that Capts listen to E-8s and just about everybody listens to E-9s and Warrant officers.

 

So they could just be saying "everyone else who has a 'rank' gets a promotion big time...if we don't do it here we will hear about it."

Edited January 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Cavell]

I don't know if it is that or just the nature of the player base. I mean let's be real...people complain that Consular gets Jedi Master faster and gets on the Jedi Council. Sith Warriors are complaining that they feel like they just have a useless title now with the Emperor in parts unknown and the Inquisitor is a Darth. If the Commando was either ending as an E-8 (warrant officer wouldn't be totally crazy either if you think about it imo) with a lot of medals or at the end finally getting a battle field commission to LT (Capt a stretch but not as bad as Maj) the cries would be deafening from all the people that do not understand that Capts listen to E-8s and just about everybody listens to E-9s and Warrant officers.

 

So they could just be saying "everyone else who has a 'rank' gets a promotion big time...if we don't do it here we will hear about it."

I suppose that's something to consider, that people might have complained in the other direction if the Trooper's final grade. But it's not like you wind up as a general; major ain't exactly comparable to a Darth or a Jedi Master.

 

But it's definitely Bioware being terribad at writing the military. Mass Effect was horrible for it, too. Technology advances, but we've pretty well got rank organization and forms of address sorted out, they've pretty well been sorted out for a while now, and there's not much of a change likely if we become space-people.

[CitizenofArathor]

.. Because at the end, you have a Major, Captain, two Lts., a Corporal and a Droid and that's the weirdest collection of ranks, I've ever heard of for a squad.

I was under the impression Vic became Sgt.

 

As for (ex) military on this subject; much of what is said has merit, and I can certainly understand some of it stings, as it brushes aspects of a part of a life you have lived. In fact, it's the same kind of sting you feel when some idiot is telling you how to do your job pretending to know what your job entails. Just keep in mind that in fiction, any fiction, the portrayal of professions is seldom correct.

 

I also would like to re-introduce you to the H-team!

MAJ (should be COL) [player name] "Hannibal' [Legacy Name]

CPT [PC choice of XO] "Murdock"

1LT [PC choice of not-XO] "Face"

SGT Tanno "B.A." Vic

strengthened by Lieutenant Yuun and Forex.

 

And a word of wisdom do not incur the wrath of the writer, as we may find the similarities not ending here. In the next Class story we might end up casted out of the Army with accuracy stat -100, as Soldiers of Fortune