Narasil Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) I wish the that in the EU they would have had a "formeless form" much like Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. Basically flowing with each situation and letting the "force" or "no mind"/mushin philosophy of eastern martial arts shine through. The Jedi are absolutely based in Eastern philosophy and martial arts. Many people call it "muscle memory", which is kind of silly when you think about it. What it really is is your consciousness that's unclouded by discursive thought coming through and "fooling" your mind into action without intention. In reality you don't need the active "mind" or to think in order to act. These are higher order states of consciousness, it's why they call being enlightened "being awake". It absolutely works in both the martial arts and in life in general. This was exemplified in the fictional movie "The Last Samurai" in the scene when Tom Cruise kills like seven guys. While fiction, any martial arts practitioner can identify with that scene. He wasn't thinking during that fight, he was simply BEING. Edited March 30, 2015 by Narasil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fyurii Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I wish the that in the EU they would have had a "formeless form" much like Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. Basically flowing with each situation and letting the "force" or "no mind"/mushin philosophy of eastern martial arts shine through. The Jedi are absolutely based in Eastern philosophy and martial arts. Many people call it "muscle memory", which is kind of silly when you think about it. What it really is is your consciousness that's unclouded by discursive thought coming through and "fooling" your mind into action without intention. Muscle memory is training through repetition. Performing the same physical task/sequence enough times that the action is automatic without having to think of what comes after the first step. That's all. From flawlessly performing a kata for a demonstration, to field stripping and cleaning a firearm. If even one change is introduced to either the subject or any part of the sequences, then the whole thing has to be relearned to accommodate the change(s). These are higher order states of consciousness, it's why they call being enlightened "being awake". It absolutely works in both the martial arts and in life in general. This was exemplified in the fictional movie "The Last Samurai" in the scene when Tom Cruise kills like seven guys. While fiction, any martial arts practitioner can identify with that scene. He wasn't thinking during that fight, he was simply BEING. This has nothing to do with eastern philosophy, and whilst it's an enjoyable movie it is still just more fictitious romanticising of Samurai and their swords, and the "mystical awe" fans attach to them through their heavily ritualised traditional culture. That sequence in the film should in no way be seen as a realistic example of a highly trained swordsman taking on multiple opponents. On the flipside though, that kind of thing would be right at home in Star Wars, because The Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 A necro... but I do have to agree with Alex. Shien is a kin to the the real Kenjutsu (Japanese sword play) fast, fluid and strong Djem as stated is more about force and power. The two seem antithetical. My one bit that annoys me about the forms is that often the people that came up with the descriptions tried to make it sound like descriptions of real world martial arts BUT didn't know anything about them. I think the best example is Shien. With the exception of blast deflection it does not follow the description...using an enemies strength against them. A quick counter attack is NOT using your enemies strength against them. Rather it seems to follow, in dueling, the philosophies of Kenjutsu. This is about KNOWING you terrain, your opponent, his weapon and using this knowledge against him. This is different than using the strength of his attack against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexeikruchev Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) DANGER: ESSAY INCOMING: DISCLAIMERS: Opinion, and Speculation. I like Djem So less and less the longer I study it. It's impressive, but too predictable and not versatile enough on offense. I also think it sacrifices too much mobility and exposes the user after a counter attack. And it's hard to really, really wrap my head around a "Slow, but powerful" striking form where it's direct, head on blocking followed by "immediate counter attack". Transitioning from defense, to powerful offense takes too long to be "immediate", in my opinion. Once again, I feel that Shien can deliver far more effectively on the tactics than Djem So can. And the more I draw out what mastery of Shien's blade-on-blade potential, I find it seems to be -very- capable against the other lightsaber forms that are -known- for saber-on-saber combat. Against Shi Cho, It could easily counter the organic, randomized attacks due to their flourishyness- and is plenty fast enough to take advantage of the inevitable openings given- in fact, Shien seems built to do precisely that. Against Makashi, it can counter the precise bladework move for move, and with a two-handed grip on a single blade (something that Makashi generally doesn't use), it can raise a much more substantial defense, and a more kinetic offense- without losing any notable amount of precision, because a two handed grip on a blade will almost always be more precise. Defensively, Shien is built around blast deflection- meaning intercepting bullet-speed projectiles that are mere microns in diameter, and doing so -at an angle conducive to redirecting it back at the shooter, or other targets-. That is a level of precision that is -obscenely- difficult to achieve- and it is Shien's bread and butter. Doing the same thing to a lightsaber wielding opponent's weapon, would be no difficulty- especially one as rote, and methodical (and therefore predictable) as Makashi. Offensively, I think Shien could get around Makashi's guard, without allowing any openings in it's own defense. Against Soresu-... well, Soresu has no teeth to speak of, so , edge Shien- and defensively, isn't much less effective than Soresu- afterall, it clearly draws on Soresu technique- tight restrained blade work for maximum coverage and defense from attack- taken with a Makashi - esque mentality of controlling the battle, and using the enemy's weapons and efforts against them. And, in offense, Shien isn't high-energy so Soresu simply outlasting Shien is unlikely- the worst case is both duelists wear out and retreat. Against Ataru, Shien is easily at it's best. Unlike Djem So, Shien is not immobile, and is again, designed to be able to handle rapid threats from odd angles (attack flurries of Ataru are not unlike a frenzy of blaster fire), and it is -again- tooled to respond instantly the moment an opening is provided by the enemy after thwarting their attacks: Ataru -has no good defense beyond its offense-, the leaps, flips, jumps, and somersaults all entail openings for a Shien practitioner to exploit- and unlike Djem So, they have the mobility and speed to actually do so. Worst case, a Shien user could run pure defense along the Soresu line, and simply let the Ataru user wear out. Again, a likely win for Shien. Against Niman: (Needs More Thought)- it would depend on the Niman user, as a true niman master would literally have mastered everything there is to master- but this kind of individual is a unicum, and very, very rare indeed. But Shien could compete with whatever the individual brings to the table otherwise, because Shien is so gosh darned viable in both defense and offense. Against Djem So: which I think Shien is strangely optimized to fight against- the moment a Djem So user launches a power strike, he will be exposed afterwards to Shien's counter attack- and a counter attack the more mobile Shien user could easily take advantage of- while the Djem So user is too slow transitioning from defense to offense to really get ahead of a Shien-style defense- which could use the raw power of Djem So against it's own user. Juyo: I don't want to discuss, because of the vagaries of the form, and the fact that Juyo is so nebulously defined in it's technical capabilities ,and because Juyo requires incorporation of aggressive elements from multiple other forms- likely including Shien. (For my Shien Versus Makashi, look here for an example of the type of fight I'm talking about happening- the point being how an Apprentice could keep up with a master like Dooku, who used Makashi, by using Shien's precise, fluid bladework and concepts). 1:43-2:12 ish. I'm not entirely sure what happened with Anakin at the end of this bit, but hey. More importantly to the point, look at two things: 2:00-2:05, see what just happened to Dooku's guard- how close that duel just came to ending very differently- and Dooku's facial reaction immediately after the fight is over with Anakin. It's very telling how far Shien blade work just pushed him. We also know that Anakin was not using Djem So here, or Ataru, due to the relatively planted footwork that remained mobile, and a lack of power attacks, mostly using tight, speedy, focused blade work. Shien against sabers, incarnate. Later, we see Anakin use Shien's principles successfully against Dooku on Grievous' flagship. 2:15-19. There, he switches from the direct power attacks of Djem So, to the blade-manipulation and exploitation of Shien, in order to end the fight. Geonosis: 1:43-2:12 Episode III: 2:15-19 Edited April 1, 2015 by Alexeikruchev Reformatting for Reader Convenience, Some Editing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121130191346/creepypasta/images/8/8d/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexeikruchev Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121130191346/creepypasta/images/8/8d/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg Let me figure out how to spoiler tag it, for convenience. I'm rather new to the whole forum experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Let me figure out how to spoiler tag it, for convenience. I'm rather new to the whole forum experience. Just use paragraphs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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