An in-depth look at: Lightsaber Forms- Shien/Djem So

[Aurbere]

"When you ask for trouble, you should not be surprised when it finds you."- Plo Koon, Master of Djem So

 

We continue our look at Lightsaber Forms with the Djem So and Shien variants of Form V. Cin Drallig continues...

 

Form V, which has two distinct variations, Shien and Djem So, was developed alongside Form IV, during an era when the Jedi were called upon to more actively maintain the peace in the galaxy, and when purely defensive combat skills-such as those of Form III- were deemed insufficient. Form V focuses on strength and lightsaber attack moves. Form V's Shien variation exploits the ability of a lightsaber to block a blaster bolt, and turns this defensive move into an offensive attack by deflecting the bolt deliberately toward an opponent. Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling. A dedication to the power and strength necessary to defeat an opponent characterizes the philosophy of Form V, which some Jedi describe by the maxim "Peace through superior firepower." While porponents of Form V regard it as a worthwhile discipline to prepare a Jedi for any threat, there are others who maintain that Form V fosters an inappropriate focus on dominating others.

You ask for my opinion on Form V? I am neither a proponent nor a detractor. One must question any discipline that has lethal potential. However, if it serves to suppress violent opposition and preserve peace, I believe it is a discipline worth knowing.

 

We will look at each of these variants.

 

Shien is an offensive form of Soresu, specifically the blaster deflection aspect. The Form itself is best used against droid opponents (a later thread will discuss why). There really is not much more to say except that Shien is dedicated to offensive blaster deflection.

 

But Shien is compounded with the Djem So form. The Djem So form focuses on strength with the Lightsaber, characterized by heavy strikes meant to break enemy defenses. Masters of the Djem So form are not only strong with the Lightsaber, but also with their bare hands. This is evident with the Sith Lord Darth Vader's brute strength (combined with his cybernetics), or Jedi Master Plo Koon's mastery of hand-to-hand combat. The Djem So variation was specifically created for Lightsaber combat, alongside Form II.

 

But the Djem So form has its own weaknesses. Djem So users generally have slow, heavy strikes, which can be avoided by users of Makashi and Ataru. Users of Soresu will block these strikes, which can be a disadvantage. Makashi's emphasis on light footwork can allow the user to dodge the heavy strikes of Djem So. But this isn't always the case, when we see Plo Koon best Ventress in battle even with a broken right arm. But Ataru is a different case. The Ataru form's speed allows the user to avoid Djem So strikes. The speed of Ataru can pick users of Djem So.

 

Overall, users of Djem So can be very dominating in Lightsaber duels and, as Cin Drallig said, the Form is worth knowing.

 

Known Masters of Djem So/Shien: Plo Koon, Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader later on)

 

If you missed Ataru, here it is: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=545380

 

Next is the balanced Niman Form.

 

If you have a topic you would like to see in the future, post them here or send me a message.

[Preventer-Blaze]

Very nice, for you what form suits best your vision in a "global" effort (Shien/Djem)?

I really tend to choose Djem So between these two, but don't know for sure.

 

Looking forward for the Form I like most, Niman.

[ToEasy]

Good job, Djem So is my favorite form, slightly above Vaapad.

[Aurbere]

Form V definitely does have a good mix of offense and defense, mainly offense though.

 

Niman is going to be interesting as there are some generalizations about the Diplomats form that should be cleared up.

[MasterMe]

Djem So is one of my favorite lightsaber forms. It and Juyo. Good read.

[fellblade]

Another good post -

 

I think Djem-So is a very good style - one of my favourites and maybe one of the best overall head to head styles....and I really don't think they have quite done it justice in the game

I think some of its weaknesses can actually be overcome by good tactical usage because it is a very mechanically sound style and based on Solid and reliable principles which an intelligent fighter can use to adapt to their foes. as Vader Showed when he became more of a thinking fighter over time...and was effective against all kinds of enemies

 

While it is an Offensive Style - it actually is capable of very good defense because of it's Soresu Roots. Not quite as good defensively - but it is better at countering and finding gaps than Soresu - if I were to Rate an overall combination of defence and offence and countering - I would probably Give an Edge to Djem So over Soresu

If a Djem So user fights patiently and actually Focuses on Defence it can be a long lasting style - also good observation and timing (with thier countering instinct) and offensive and dominating use of the force will help them throw off an opponents rhythm and overcome styles like Ataru.

 

Remember, Luke Skywalker who is considered the best Lightsaber duellist of all, is primarily a Shien/Djem So user, which shows that it is a Solid Foundation that can be built upon very effectively.....

 

Also - Perhaps Cin Drallig should have been more of a proponent of this Style - he may have lived a bit longer vs Vader...

But that situation does give some credence Dooku's theory that Battlemasters tend to be somewhat overrated Duellists....

[Aurbere]

Another good post -

 

I think Djem-So is a very good style - one of my favourites and maybe one of the best overall head to head styles....and I really don't think they have quite done it justice in the game

I think some of its weaknesses can actually be overcome by good tactical usage because it is a very mechanically sound style and based on Solid and reliable principles which an intelligent fighter can use to adapt to their foes. as Vader Showed when he became more of a thinking fighter over time...and was effective against all kinds of enemies

 

While it is an Offensive Style - it actually is capable of very good defense because of it's Soresu Roots. Not quite as good defensively - but it is better at countering and finding gaps than Soresu - if I were to Rate an overall combination of defence and offence and countering - I would probably Give an Edge to Djem So over Soresu

If a Djem So user fights patiently and actually Focuses on Defence it can be a long lasting style - also good observation and timing (with thier countering instinct) and offensive and dominating use of the force will help them throw off an opponents rhythm and overcome styles like Ataru.

 

Remember, Luke Skywalker who is considered the best Lightsaber duellist of all, is primarily a Shien/Djem So user, which shows that it is a Solid Foundation that can be built upon very effectively.....

 

Also - Perhaps Cin Drallig should have been more of a proponent of this Style - he may have lived a bit longer vs Vader...

But that situation does give some credence Dooku's theory that Battlemasters tend to be somewhat overrated Duellists....

 

The Form is actually a solid defensive Form, but its primary focus is on attack. The main philosophy is to dominate duels.

 

Cin Drallig is actually a very skilled duelist, but Vader is far more skilled. Dooku would also be a good match for Cin Drallig as well.

[ToEasy]

Another good post -

 

I think Djem-So is a very good style - one of my favourites and maybe one of the best overall head to head styles....and I really don't think they have quite done it justice in the game

I think some of its weaknesses can actually be overcome by good tactical usage because it is a very mechanically sound style and based on Solid and reliable principles which an intelligent fighter can use to adapt to their foes. as Vader Showed when he became more of a thinking fighter over time...and was effective against all kinds of enemies

 

While it is an Offensive Style - it actually is capable of very good defense because of it's Soresu Roots. Not quite as good defensively - but it is better at countering and finding gaps than Soresu - if I were to Rate an overall combination of defence and offence and countering - I would probably Give an Edge to Djem So over Soresu

If a Djem So user fights patiently and actually Focuses on Defence it can be a long lasting style - also good observation and timing (with thier countering instinct) and offensive and dominating use of the force will help them throw off an opponents rhythm and overcome styles like Ataru.

 

Remember, Luke Skywalker who is considered the best Lightsaber duellist of all, is primarily a Shien/Djem So user, which shows that it is a Solid Foundation that can be built upon very effectively.....

 

Also - Perhaps Cin Drallig should have been more of a proponent of this Style - he may have lived a bit longer vs Vader...

But that situation does give some credence Dooku's theory that Battlemasters tend to be somewhat overrated Duellists....

 

Very true though Cin Drallig was a good duelist like Aurbere said. Though I wish Cin Drallig was used more in the expanded universe.

[Aurbere]

Very true though Cin Drallig was a good duelist like Aurbere said. Though I wish Cin Drallig was used more in the expanded universe.

 

So do I. He's a really great character and I wish more was done with him. These holocron recordings I have are actually a pretty good look at his character.

[TalonVII]

I consider Djem-so the "Kendo" Style of star wars. If they had Samauri who were jedi, they would predominately use Form V IMHO.

 

I honestly would be a user of either Soresu or Djem so/Shien. Also i think they should of made more light saber styles and made Shien and Djem so two different styles, but again that's just my opinion.

[Aurbere]

I consider Djem-so the "Kendo" Style of star wars. If they had Samauri who were jedi, they would predominately use Form V IMHO.

 

I honestly would be a user of either Soresu or Djem so/Shien. Also i think they should of made more light saber styles and made Shien and Djem so two different styles, but again that's just my opinion.

The Form of Shien is basically an aggressive blaster deflection form. Whenever a Jedi deflects a blaster bolt intentionally at a target, they are implementing Shien.

 

While I'm sure they could have expanded upon Shien, it doesn't really matter. I would have liked to see Shien and Djem So split off, it seems that they 'need' each other. I use need loosely of course.

[ToEasy]

The Form of Shien is basically an aggressive blaster deflection form. Whenever a Jedi deflects a blaster bolt intentionally at a target, they are implementing Shien.

 

While I'm sure they could have expanded upon Shien, it doesn't really matter. I would have liked to see Shien and Djem So split off, it seems that they 'need' each other. I use need loosely of course.

 

Shien is basicly Soresu with a Makashi mentality, using aimed blast deflection.

[Aurbere]

Shien is basicly Soresu with a Makashi mentality, using aimed blast deflection.

 

^True.

[TalonVII]

Another thing i would of LOVED to seen added to the form V that really didn't get seen a lot in lightsaber dueling, the art of quick draw.

 

The art in Kendo of drawing and striking your target at the same time as quickly as possible. I mean lets face it, in many duels first strike is usually the last strike and that strike is done mostly in the Djem So style, fast and as hard as possible in a broad sweeping stroke, like you see with Katanas.

 

Like i said before, i consider Djem So the "Kendo" Style of star wars.

[Aurbere]

Another thing i would of LOVED to seen added to the form V that really didn't get seen a lot in lightsaber dueling, the art of quick draw.

 

The art in Kendo of drawing and striking your target at the same time as quickly as possible. I mean lets face it, in many duels first strike is usually the last strike and that strike is done mostly in the Djem So style, fast and as hard as possible in a broad sweeping stroke, like you see with Katanas.

 

Like i said before, i consider Djem So the "Kendo" Style of star wars.

 

That would be awesome to see. Some Jedi walks up to an opponent and just quick draws him. I believe Obi-Wan did something similar to this to Darth Maul on Naboo. Remember when he leapt out of the pit and sliced Maul in half. I believe he did some sort of quick draw there. Maybe not as quick, but quick enough.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That would be awesome to see. Some Jedi walks up to an opponent and just quick draws him. I believe Obi-Wan did something similar to this to Darth Maul on Naboo. Remember when he leapt out of the pit and sliced Maul in half. I believe he did some sort of quick draw there. Maybe not as quick, but quick enough.

 

He used Sai Tok.

 

"Sai tok roughly translates as "to cut body in half.""

 

―Cin Drallig

[Aurbere]

He used Sai Tok.

 

"Sai tok roughly translates as "to cut body in half.""

 

―Cin Drallig

 

Ouch. That's a great quote though. Very specific lol.

[fellblade]

So do I. He's a really great character and I wish more was done with him. These holocron recordings I have are actually a pretty good look at his character.

 

Yes I think they are - and also serve to show his more all round but ironcally more rigid and ultimately more limited knowledge of each of the forms when compared to a form specialist.

But I think they are a good basis to use when educating people about the styles - when the specialists take the forms further - that tends to be more of 'personal discovery/experience' thing (so not really a consistent form teaching)......

 

To be fair I don't really know that much about Cin Drallig (character wise) but I have read and seen enough to be of the opinion that he is a bit overrated (by the fans) as a duellist.....

But this is not to knock him as a Character - as I said I really don't know enough about him in that sense - he reallly may be a great character

 

Personally - I prefer Blademaster Kas'im to Cin Drallig (for various reasons),

But Kas'im is one of my personal favourite Characters anyway....

[Aurbere]

Yes I think they are - and also serve to show his more all round but ironcally more rigid and ultimately more limited knowledge of each of the forms when compared to a form specialist.

But I think they are a good basis to use when educating people about the styles - when the specialists take the forms further - that tends to be more of 'personal discovery/experience' thing (so not really a consistent form teaching)......

 

To be fair I don't really know that much about Cin Drallig (character wise) but I have read and seen enough to be of the opinion that he is a bit overrated (by the fans) as a duellist.....

But this is not to knock him as a Character - as I said I really don't know enough about him in that sense - he reallly may be a great character

 

Personally - I prefer Blademaster Kas'im to Cin Drallig (for various reasons),

But Kas'im is one of my personal favourite Characters anyway....

 

I can understand why you think he's over-rated, seeing as how he got beat by Vader. We don't really get to see much info about him though. He doesn't seem to do much outside of teaching. He's sort of like Kreia, in the matter of teaching. He's very knowledgeable about the Lightsaber Forms and has taught practically the entire Order.

 

I would like to see more stuff done with him though.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yes I think they are - and also serve to show his more all round but ironcally more rigid and ultimately more limited knowledge of each of the forms when compared to a form specialist.

But I think they are a good basis to use when educating people about the styles - when the specialists take the forms further - that tends to be more of 'personal discovery/experience' thing (so not really a consistent form teaching)......

 

To be fair I don't really know that much about Cin Drallig (character wise) but I have read and seen enough to be of the opinion that he is a bit overrated (by the fans) as a duellist.....

But this is not to knock him as a Character - as I said I really don't know enough about him in that sense - he reallly may be a great character

 

Personally - I prefer Blademaster Kas'im to Cin Drallig (for various reasons),

But Kas'im is one of my personal favourite Characters anyway....

 

Overrated? How so? Theres barely any knowledge of him, and what little we do see is him in a 3 second holo recording of him fighting Anakin. Not sure how he could be overrated though, being theres so little of what we actually know which is.

 

1. He was trained by Yoda specifically in lightsaber combat

 

2. Mastered all lightsaber forms, thus becoming a swordmaster which takes a long time to do and are some of the top duelists in both the sith and jedi orders.

 

3. Became the Blademaster of the Jedi Order, he also trained Obi-Wan and Anakin in their forms and Anakin becoming one of his greatest students.

 

4. At the time of Knightfall, he was pretty much the only real threat to Vader...which says something cause not even Shaak Ti seemed to be a threat to him.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

I have a question for you all. Niman is going to be released in a few hours and I was wondering if you all wanted me to do the Jar'Kai form along with it. I'm hesitant to do it, as Jar'Kai is not a form the Jedi practice. Up to you guys!

[ToEasy]

I have a question for you all. Niman is going to be released in a few hours and I was wondering if you all wanted me to do the Jar'Kai form along with it. I'm hesitant to do it, as Jar'Kai is not a form the Jedi practice. Up to you guys!

 

I would do it seperate.

[Aurbere]

I would do it seperate.

 

Probably. That's what I'm doing with Juyo and Vaapad. Have seperate threads for them. So maybe I can release Jar'Kai after Vaapad or something.

[TalonVII]

i would have said do it separate.

 

IMHO Juyo and Jer'Kai should of been forms 8 and 9.

[Alexeikruchev]

Shien is basicly Soresu with a Makashi mentality, using aimed blast deflection.

 

While quite canonically correct, I find that pairing Shien with Djem So is a bit off to me. On the one hand, philosophically, both focus on a strong initial defense before immediate counter attack. Djem So, however, is a slow, power-based style. Shien, by contrast, does not rely on strength and power, but rather on speed and fluid, yet precise blade-work, necessary for not just blast deflection (A difficult task requiring concentration at an intense level by even master saberists), but to -redirect the shots- precisely and aggressively against the opposition. The two are distinctly different. In fact, I'd argue that Shien would be better paired with either Shi Cho , or a derivative of Makashi- because Shien feels like a Form III technique applied with a Form II mentality.

 

Moreover, I think the relegation of Shien to an auxiliary form to Djem So is grossly undervaluing the form. Shien, with it's precise, speedy, fluid bladework is a worthy competitor to any of the other saber-fighting forms, because it has the tactical ingenuity of Makashi (dominating the fight by controlling the opponent), is utilized without the indoctrinated obsession with proper footwork, and rigid (albeit effective) technique. Taking the Shien principle into mele combat is just as worthy, imagine a saberist who is constantly shifting their blade to redirect an opponent's momentum and efforts, using their own offense against them. It is for this reason I think Shien could be, if developed fully, -incredibly- lethal against the traditional Djem So, Ataru, and Juyo techniques, which at their core all specialize on offense and the building of momentum.

 

The reverse grip, however, is something I really don't think belongs in Shien. A reverse grip, unless it is done with an offhand saber to deflect incoming rearward blaster fire, is a horrible choice. It's only viability would be in very close quarters, where a blade's length is an impediment... assuming one doesn't mind damaging the upholstery, in the case of the lightsaber. It lacks the maneuverability and coverage of the standard grip- although it would have increased viability when providing blast-deflection coverage of adjacent allies- but again, at the expense of coverage of the saberist. Rather, I think that would make more sense being a Nimanian discipline, due to the above traits.

 

I personally RP on Ebon Hawk, and have been developing Shien as a form for lightsaber combat specifically, and find the principles behind it to be very well adapted. Feel free to reply with comments, feedback, and/or criticism!

Edited March 30, 2015 by Alexeikruchev
Forgot to insert my Qoute.