My suggestions to make Vengeance on par with Rage without making it OP.

[Ashuranrx]

My ideas may never reach a dev or they may get disregarded. But I want to throw them out here anyway in hopes that they may inspire a dev to make Vengeance better and on par with Rage in both PvP and PvE without making it too OP.

 

The goal of my ideas is to make the Vengeance tree effective while “standing alone”, without pigeonholing players to take skills from the other two trees to make Vengeance work, and make every skill in the tree so attractive that players will have a hard time deciding what to get and what to give up, for both PvP and PvE. All skill trees should be designed in such a way that, it is actually feasible and worth it to take all skills in the tree. This has to be done without making the tree OP of course.

 

I have made a mirror post in the Guardian forum for the Vigilance tree.

 

Here are my ideas:

 

1. “Draining Scream” with “Terrifying Scream” – Force Scream reduces the movement speed of hit target by 50% for 2/4 seconds. (2 points)

 

The DoT damage component from this skill is too weak to be worthy at end game play. I think it should change to a utility add-on to Force Scream.

 

PvP: Vengeance Juggs are often kited in the 4-10 m dead zone. Add a snare to Force Scream, a 10 range attack with a 9s cool down, can help us combat being kited in the dead zone and let us stick on the target. Yes, we can take Imiitation in the Immortal tree to help us combat being kited. But the Vengeance tree itself should have something to combat being kited. Movement speed reduction can be reduced to 30% if 50% is too OP through testing.

 

PvE: This skill does not benefit PvE Juggs much, except that PvE players will lose some DPS without the DoT. However, other skills I suggest later will make up for the DPS loss here.

 

2. Replaces “Pooled Hatred” with “Fanaticism” – Increases Endurance by 2/4 % and lowers the cool down of Intercede by 2.5/5 seconds. (2 points)

 

Pooled Hatred was not that strong to begin with because the stacks rarely build up to full. Recent nerf to this skill proved that the Dev somehow does not like this skill at all. So my idea is to remove it all together and take back the old skill that we lost in 1.2.

 

PvP: More Endurance is more HP, which is always helpful. Reducing Intercede to 15 seconds will greatly increases the Jugg’s mobility, especially in Huttball. Now Juggs have 2 leaps at 15 seconds cooldown.

 

PvE: PvE players lost nothing here because Pooled Hatred is almost useless in PvE. PvE players used to abuse Intercede with the old skill that gives damage reduction to self, but that abuse will not happen with this modified skill.

 

3. Replaces “Deadly Reprisal” with “Dark Foresight” – Reduces damage taken from area of effect abilities while in Shien Form by 15/30 %. (2 points)

 

Deadly Reprisal was crap for both PvP and PvE. Its lost won’t be felt.

 

PvP: AoE damage reduction will be great for survival in the fray at the frontlines.

 

PvE: AoE damage reduction is useful at boss fights where the boss use AoE attacks.

 

4. Replaces “Ruin” with “Dueling” – Enraged Defense no longer consumes rage when hit while active. In addition, reduces all damage taken by 15% while Enraged defense is active. (1 point)

 

Ruin existed because Decimate used to be in the Vengeance tree, which made the two skills synergized greatly. Now that it is clear that the Devs want to make Rage the Smash/AoE tree. I think Vengeance should shift towards single target DPS and survival.

 

PvP: This makes Enraged Defense effective and useful in 1v1. Not consuming rage while being hit means you can dish back damage while taking less. Increased Endurance from Fanaticism also means that Enraged Defense will regenerate more health per hit. It is all around useful even in group battles.

 

PvE: Not much to lose and not much to gain. Enraged defense is mainly used to lower threat in PvE.

 

5. “Deafening Defense” changed – Reduces all damage by 2/4% and reduces the cool down of Roar by 7.5/15 seconds. (2 points)

 

This is actually a nerf to the skill with damage reduction for enraged defense removed and moved to Dueling. But it had to be done for balance.

 

6. Replaces “Eviscerate” with “Overpower” – Impale increases the damage of the next ability that uses rage by 10/20%. (2 points)

 

This ability makes up for the damage lost from Draining Scream, Eviscerate, and Pooled Hatred, and turn the damage into burst. Players have more tactical options to do damage with this skill.

 

PvP: Overall damage should be the same. Single target burst is increased. Burst is always good for PvP.

 

PvE: Overall damage should be the same. Single target burst is increased. PvE should see a slight increase in DPS, even with lost from Draining Scream and Eviscerate.

 

7. Replaces “Sundering Throw” with “Force Guiding Throw” changed – Saber Throw now applies 1 /2 stacks of sunder armor to the target and roots the target for 1.5 /3 seconds. It additionally increases the rage generation by 1 /2 points. (2 points)

 

For such a high tier skill, I feel that it should do more than just lower cooldown and add sunder stacks.

 

PvP: An addition 3 second unbreakable root at 30 m range and 30 seconds cool down is great utility in stopping a target in PvP. This helps Vengeance in assisting or leading a focus fire on a target. Generating 5 rage instead of 3 matches Battering Assault from Marauders for rage generation for upfront burst. Adding Sunder stacks are just icing on the cake to increase sub-sequential attacks for upfront burst damage. And this ability is not too OP either with a 30 seconds cooldown.

 

PvE: With PvE set bonus to reduce the minimum range on Saber Throw to 0, PvE players should see an overall increase in focus generation, which is an overall DPS increase.

 

8. “Rampage” changed – Impale and Shatter now generate 2 rage and reduces the cool down of ravage by 2/4/6 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds, each rank beyond the first reduces this rate limit by 3 seconds.

 

For Both PvP and PvE, this gives more constant rage generation and DPS increase through more often use of Ravage. The overall use of this skill is the same as the old one, just more consistent instead of relying on a 30% chance to proc, which is a low chance.

 

9. “Shatter” changed – The DoT portion of this ability now does the same amount of damage over 9 seconds.

 

For both PvP and PvE, this is a slight DPS increase overall. The cooldown of this ability will be in sync with the DoT, so there will be no clipping to the DoT.

 

Please feel free to comment.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Ashuranrx

[Dovahbrah]

These changes would be awesome.. too bad the devs seem content to just buff the derpsmashers.

[Dire]

If anyone is on Prophecy of the Five I am willing to teach you to play Vegeance better.

 

There is nothing wrong with the spec. Rage is inferior. I am willing to prove that if you would like - its not an argument.

[subbyflores]

1. “Draining Scream” with “Terrifying Scream” – Force Scream reduces the movement speed of hit target by 50% for 2/4 seconds. (2 points)

We already have an AOE slow with no cool down, that can be made free and have a much shorter GCD, it is also more than twice as long. We don't need this.

 

2. Replaces “Pooled Hatred” with “Fanaticism” – Increases Endurance by 2/4 % and lowers the cool down of Intercede by 2.5/5 seconds. (2 points)

I would be okay with something like this

 

3. Replaces “Deadly Reprisal” with “Dark Foresight” – Reduces damage taken from area of effect abilities while in Shien Form by 15/30 %. (2 points)

That would be better, but i probable wouldn't take it.

 

4. Replaces “Ruin” with “Dueling” – Enraged Defense no longer consumes rage when hit while active. In addition, reduces all damage taken by 15% while Enraged defense is active. (1 point)

5. “Deafening Defense” changed – Reduces all damage by 2/4% and reduces the cool down of Roar by 7.5/15 seconds. (2 points)

I don't really like these changes, vengeance is already swimming in rage so the "dueling" seems less valuable then having an on demand 1rage. Also I don't see a need to just move a portion of one talent to another.

 

6. Replaces “Eviscerate” with “Overpower” – Impale increases the damage of the next ability that uses rage by 10/20%. (2 points)

I'm not sure about this. Seeing as how BW nerfed pooled hatred already to this level but left it where we have no control of it, I'm not sure that is something they would be willing to put in, but it would be pretty cool to have for sure.

 

7. Replaces “Sundering Throw” with “Force Guiding Throw” changed – Saber Throw now applies 1 /2 stacks of sunder armor to the target and roots the target for 1.5 /3 seconds. It additionally increases the rage generation by 1 /2 points. (2 points)

Since i can only use throw at range anyways i see no real point to adding a root to this. I would much rather have a CD reduction.

 

8. “Rampage” changed – Impale and Shatter now generate 2 rage and reduces the cool down of ravage by 2/4/6 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds, each rank beyond the first reduces this rate limit by 3 seconds.

I really don't get this idea, are you saying instead of costing rage, 2/3 of our main rage spenders will now generate rage? Also i think the the random reset is better in that I can get multiple ravages in a short time, the proc rate is really quite good since its on two attacks

 

9. “Shatter” changed – The DoT portion of this ability now does the same amount of damage over 9 seconds.

I like this change, it will add slightly more dps and like you said it will prevent clipping with the DoT

 

 

Overall I am not a big fan of your changes. Except lowering the bleed time on shatter and the edurance/intercede change, nothing here really works for me. just my opinion, but really I don't think vengeance needs that much changing really. Its not rage but it has great potential when played correctly. A few small tweaks is all.

[EnalisNailo]

Definitely prefer the DoT on scream than the slow, again we have the AoE slow which can be made free and shorter GCD if specced properly.

 

Fanaticism- I would just not pick this up at all, as a PvE or a PvP jugg. Pooled hatred is better in both regards (though i dont even pick up pooled hatred pve wise since the nerf). In PvP you're constantly getting your movmeent imparred, it was rather easy to keep 3-4 stacks of it. We don't need more HP, we already have a ton for a DPS class plus heavy armor, and 4% extra really wouldn't make us more survivable in either PvP or PvE. Intercede's cooldown seems fine where it's at.

 

“Dark Foresight”- Probably better in the long run and would make healers happy, but I think I'd prefer to keep the rage generation.

 

"Dueling" (Needs a more sithy name, that sounds too much like a jedi skill)- This is a very PvP vs PvE thing. This would be great for PvP obviously Enraged Defense being an amazing cooldown for PvP situations, however; keep in mind that having a +1 Rage AoE is also quite valuable. Now on the PvE side of things, I would absolutely hate this change, I love having the free smash, also with most PvE builds yoiu pick up decimate upping its damage by 20%. My Smash is a +1 AoE that can hit upwards of 2800 damage.

 

Overpower (already a skill name in the Juggernaut rage tree needs a diff name)- This I like but like others have said, this is the current pooled hatred boost but giving us full control over it.

 

Force Guiding Throw- Beyond the sunder armor stacks, useless, most juggs followup throw with charge anyways for the root, few juggs I know bother with the 4piece to remove the 10meter range req and op to instead use the PvP set or grab the rauder 2piece and drop vicious throw down to essentially a -1 rage move.

 

Rampage change- Just no no no and no. Vengeance never has had an issue with rage generation in the first place, that was one of the things that made us on par if not better than rage pre-1.4 changes. Yes 30% chance sounds low but basic statistics show us that the chance of failing the reproc twice in a row (shatter, followed up by impale) is actually 49%. A huge chunk of damage for my juggernaut comes from back to back reprocs on Ravage. With your changes Ravage at the least would have a 21second cooldown, now if perhaps we got the same 100% armor penetration buff that Carnage rauders got I would feel differently, but as it stands no, I'd rather play the RNG game with Ravage reprocs.

 

Shatter change- Yes, do like.

 

Overall the only changes I'd support in this are your impale and shatter changes, otherwise I think it would be more detrimental to Vengeance.

Edited October 18, 2012 by EnalisNailo

[Soljin]

If anyone is on Prophecy of the Five I am willing to teach you to play Vegeance better.

 

There is nothing wrong with the spec. Rage is inferior. I am willing to prove that if you would like - its not an argument.

 

If you dont mind answering What are you running Crit, Surge, Accuracy, and Power @? I just went back to Veng since the 1.4 and have full WH plus tons of spare mods etc...Just trying to dial in my stats...You clearly have it dialed in so...Thought Id ask.

[Creslan]

Vengence needs the armor penetration, not Rage. 30% from Dark Resonance.

 

Put shatter at 6 or 9 sec DOT duration.

 

Give shien stance 15% run speed increase.

 

 

3 things.

 

Ruin doesn't need to be in Rage, they already get a free smash with 4 stacks of shockwave, and they shouldn't be smashing w/o 4 stacks of shockwave.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Creslan

[Elyx]

First Off OP, I wanted to applaud your approach. a very well rounded way to try and balance the tree. But I'm not sure it's all needed. In reality, bleed damage is just as good as burst in many ways (and in some ways,better). All we really need to do is increase the bleed damage, and make a few adjustments.

 

first off, for extra damage in both arenas, we can just add a talent that increases our overall DoT damage by, say, 20-30%. that's all we need. we could tack that on to sundering throw, as its not really that much of a talent anyways (and a horrid one for being that high in the tree). personally, id like to see the DPS 4 piece bonus be something actually valuable to the class (current 4 piece is squat compared to other classes 4 piece bonus). so I'd prefer sundering throw to read, "Decreases CD of Throw by 5/10 seconds and eliminates it's range requirements."

 

there ya go. you can take the talent in the rage tree that boosts its crit, and you have a pretty vicious attack with a moderate cooldown. This would also help our ranged limitations as well (without being OP). we get a real nice heavy hitter once ever 20 seconds. if you want, we can apply the root to that, that would be great for grabbing that sage or sniper 20 meters away and give us a chance to catch up with them.

 

then add the bleed damage bonus to Draining scream. for the next 9 seconds, all bleeds to 20% extra damage (or 30...adjust pending how much damage we actually need)....and Finite. vengeance would be top notch with just those changes. now...For pure PvP purposes, I can see why Pooled hatred is just....dumb. They could easily change that to "anytime the Juggernaut is rooted, CC'ed or mezzed, they gain 1% of their health per second for 3/6 seconds." No stacks of course. the percentage can vary, but that would be an excellent counter to the continual CC that juggs undergo in PvP.

 

your changes seem interesting, but it seems like allot of work to just add some extra damage thats viable to PvP that doesn't break PvE. All you need for that is bleed damage.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Elyx