Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[cashogy]

I enjoyed this post. Entertainment on the forums is nigh better than the game itself...in my opinion. I especially liked the MMO part; italics mine.

 

*laughing*

That is... is some funny stuff...MMO indeed...

*laughing*

 

not sure what you found so funny? you dont think this game is an MMO? thats too bad, since this game still has enough players to count as an mmo. and people group up in MMOs

 

 

how about this argument:

 

"premades are ruining operations! i keep trying to pug for operations, and group finder groups always lose but the premades always win and i cant get into any premades b/c i dont want to make any friends in an mmo!"

 

^ this entire argument, in PvE form. now stop all the whining and crying folks

[DarthSabreth]

Based on my experience with premades in wow, premades don't want to face other premades. Every premade I was in never wanted to face other premades. There are exceptions, but I think the vast majority don't want to face other premades. First, facing other premades means you will gain honor slower in wow. The same is true in swtor. Facing other premades means a slower rate of earning commendations since your force to face other organized groups instead of random assortment of pugs.

 

thats my point exactly, you have the pvp guilds running premades around the clock gearing up their toons fast while the pugers are getting minimum coms taking them 3 times as long to get their gear.

 

if the premaders are really that good, then they would not mind going up against other premades in ranked, all they need is a cross server que.

Edited December 24, 2012 by DarthSabreth

[CommanderKeeva]

I think we need to define what kind of premades we have a problem here with. Two friends playing together? Four friends playing together? Four guild members from the server best group, one hybrid tankasin, one Pyro PT, one Focus Jugg/Mara and one Op Healer, all Valor 90+, wearing optimized EWH and blowing seismic grenades like there's no tomorrow?

 

The problem is that there is no magic solution for separating specific types of players. The reason why 99,9% of the premades don't play in rateds because the entry barrier to rated warzones is impossibly high for most (even PvP) oriented guilds. Having 8 players online at the same time with the proper character/role/gear combination is very difficult to achieve and even if one guild manages to do that, what are the odds that another will have done the same at the exact same time the first guild is queuing? Rated PvP does happen on our server but it always has to be arranged first (I've not heard of spur-of-the-moment rated matches yet.), which means that the same people play against the same people over and over again. Guess what, it's boring, but it's not their fault. It's Bioware's fault for not making xserver matches.

 

If we want reasonable competititon levels, we would definitely need the following:

 

1.Cross-server queues

2.Lower entry barrier to rated warzones (balance underperforming specs and classes)

3.Reasonable match-making system in non-ranked and ranked warzones

 

Separating solo and premade queues wouldn't work because then the premade queue would go dead and you'd have guild members sync queuing and we'd be back to square one. Also, we cannot disallow people to play with their friends in an MMO game. We need the abovementioned things.

 

Without cross-server queues to match the top guilds against the top guilds, the situation won't improve because it can't improve because each server has reached the potential of its own PvP capability. It's only downhill from here without cross-server queues. Unfortunately, Bioware has stated that cross-server queues are in the "back barn", so I really don't know what to predict for the future of SWTOR PvP. For a long list of reasons (Ranging from too few guilds per server to different competition levels per server) I don't see how Season 1 would ever start without cross-server queues. As long as we're in the pre-season, premades will occupy themselves the only way they can, getting easy wins together and having fun. Can we really blame them for that?

 

In such a situation you can A.: make a premade of your own and exacerbate the problem; B: struggle within the confines of the system; C: Quit PvP/the game entirely. None of which offers a solution to our problem here, which is the lack of balanced matches, where the outcome is not immediately predetermined by the participating people's gear level and guild affiliation.

 

The problem is that more and more people seem to choose option C or don't get into PvP in the first place. Let's face it, almost everyone that's left plays SWTOR PvP because it's SW and not because it's PvP. They love Star Wars and because they're hardcore Star Wars fans, will probably let everything slide. Those people who were in it for the actual PvP part have already left (at least the ones I knew) to a game with a better designed PvP system and there's a long list of those tbh starting with Guild Wars 2, which is by no means perfect, but in many regards is a superior PvP environment.

 

TL;DR version: The premade vs pug situation will not be rectified until we get cross-server queues. Bioware said we would not be getting them, so the system will likely not improve in the future.

Edited December 24, 2012 by CommanderKeeva

[ArchangelLBC]

I think we need to define what kind of premades we have a problem here with. Two friends playing together? Four friends playing together? Four guild members from the server best group, one hybrid tankasin, one Pyro PT, one Focus Jugg/Mara and one Op Healer, all Valor 90+, wearing optimized EWH and blowing seismic grenades like there's no tomorrow?

 

The problem is that there is no magic solution for separating specific types of players. The reason why 99,9% of the premades don't play in rateds because the entry barrier to rated warzones is impossibly high for most (even PvP) oriented guilds. Having 8 players online at the same time with the proper character/role/gear combination is very difficult to achieve and even if one guild manages to do that, what are the odds that another will have done the same at the exact same time the first guild is queuing? Rated PvP does happen on our server but it always has to be arranged first (I've not heard of spur-of-the-moment rated matches yet.), which means that the same people play against the same people over and over again. Guess what, it's boring, but it's not their fault. It's Bioware's fault for not making xserver matches.

 

If we want reasonable competititon levels, we would definitely need the following:

 

1.Cross-server queues

2.Lower entry barrier to rated warzones (balance underperforming specs and classes)

3.Reasonable match-making system in non-ranked and ranked warzones

 

Separating solo and premade queues wouldn't work because then the premade queue would go dead and you'd have guild members sync queuing and we'd be back to square one. Also, we cannot disallow people to play with their friends in an MMO game. We need the abovementioned things.

 

Without cross-server queues to match the top guilds against the top guilds, the situation won't improve because it can't improve because each server has reached the potential of its own PvP capability. It's only downhill from here without cross-server queues. Unfortunately, Bioware has stated that cross-server queues are in the "back barn", so I really don't know what to predict for the future of SWTOR PvP. For a long list of reasons (Ranging from too few guilds per server to different competition levels per server) I don't see how Season 1 would ever start without cross-server queues. As long as we're in the pre-season, premades will occupy themselves the only way they can, getting easy wins together and having fun. Can we really blame them for that?

 

In such a situation you can A.: make a premade of your own and exacerbate the problem; B: struggle within the confines of the system; C: Quit PvP/the game entirely. None of which offers a solution to our problem here, which is the lack of balanced matches, where the outcome is not immediately predetermined by the participating people's gear level and guild affiliation.

 

The problem is that more and more people seem to choose option C or don't get into PvP in the first place. Let's face it, almost everyone that's left plays SWTOR PvP because it's SW and not because it's PvP. They love Star Wars and because they're hardcore Star Wars fans, will probably let everything slide. Those people who were in it for the actual PvP part have already left (at least the ones I knew) to a game with a better designed PvP system and there's a long list of those tbh starting with Guild Wars 2, which is by no means perfect, but in many regards is a superior PvP environment.

 

TL;DR version: The premade vs pug situation will not be rectified until we get cross-server queues. Bioware said we would not be getting them, so the system will likely not improve in the future.

 

 

Well said, all of this.

[YaanaOhtar]

I think we need to define what kind of premades we have a problem here with. Two friends playing together? Four friends playing together? Four guild members from the server best group, one hybrid tankasin, one Pyro PT, one Focus Jugg/Mara and one Op Healer, all Valor 90+, wearing optimized EWH and blowing seismic grenades like there's no tomorrow?

.

 

As i said before, they could use Expertise as a control. If you want to play with group, you will be limited the total of expertise of your entire group to enter non-ranked. I would suggest the total of expertise for the entire 4 person group will not allow to be higher than 4400. Even with the other 4 PUG with EWH, they still consider to have 2 member with recruit gear, so their strength will be limited. 2 premade joining together will be heavily limited too

[Geglad]

not sure what you found so funny? you dont think this game is an MMO? thats too bad, since this game still has enough players to count as an mmo. and people group up in MMOs

 

 

how about this argument:

 

"premades are ruining operations! i keep trying to pug for operations, and group finder groups always lose but the premades always win and i cant get into any premades b/c i dont want to make any friends in an mmo!"

 

^ this entire argument, in PvE form. now stop all the whining and crying folks

 

 

 

It is an MMO. And with the help of server merges and FTP, it may remain just populated enough to give your point some validity. Maybe. Of course, it may dwindle into obscurity sooner than later, much like this post and your responses. They are very important after all...

 

I laugh because in every MMO I have played, in every one of their forums at some point or another, was an individual or group of people who thought themselves so much better than the rest, so much deeper in understanding than everyone else, so much greater players and people because they found their niche.

 

Now I am not saying thats you...of course. Really.

 

PvP or PvE arguments are pointless to me, by the way. Its about a niche I think.

 

It is an MMO...indeed. I am still laughing, and thank you again for the entertainment.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Geglad

[cashogy]

It is an MMO. And with the help of server merges and FTP, it may remain just populated enough to give your point some validity. Maybe. Of course, it may dwindle into obscurity sooner than later, much like this post and your responses. They are very important after all...

 

I laugh because in every MMO I have played, in every one of their forums at some point or another, was an individual or group of people who thought themselves so much better than the rest, so much deeper in understanding than everyone else, so much greater players and people because they found their niche.

 

Now I am not saying thats you...of course. Really.

 

PvP or PvE arguments are pointless to me, by the way. Its about a niche I think.

 

It is an MMO...indeed. I am still laughing, and thank you again for the entertainment.

 

still not sure what you find so funny......... the game is an MMO. there are thousands of people playing. just because the population has dwindled significantly doesnt change the genre of the game. there could be 32 people playing and it would still be an MMO......

 

as far as whose posts are more obscure, i think yours may take the cake.

 

MMOs have grouping. they also usually have some kind of PvP. grouping cannot/should not be restricted in PvP. end of logic. not exactly rocket science

[Feskitt]

still not sure what you find so funny.........

 

They're probably laughing cause no matter what convoluted explanations you make, you're just another premader scared of facing other premades.

 

All you got is excuses.

 

That's all any of you got.

 

U scared bro?

 

[ArchangelLBC]

They're probably laughing cause no matter what convoluted explanations you make, you're just another premader scared of facing other premades.

 

All you got is excuses.

 

That's all any of you got.

 

U scared bro?

 

 

 

Sounds to me like all the solo queue whiners are just as afraid of premades, but are also unwilling to do anything about it except complain on the forums when a perfectly viable solution is available to them right now, in game, absolutely free of charge.

[P-Chan]

Ok, Y'all want a reason some of us "Do not find friends to make premades with". Easy, We stopped trying. Some of us do not have the time to sit in fleet for an hour or so, looking for that "Perfect" Class/Utility combination needed to effectively make a premade. Some of us, no longer play classes that other Premades feel are viable. I know I hate healing on my Commando, with a passion, and since I am now Commando DPS, the Premades on my server wont take me. I wont change my spec, as I feel that Commando heals need A LOT of love ATM.

 

Others of us HAD friends that we would PvP with at launch and for a time after. However, with the lackluster systems (CC, and Resolve to name 2) our friends decided to ditch this game for another, like going back to WoW or going to GW2. Leaving those of us, as stated before, who are die hard SW fans, to play a game that is in essence, failing despite itself.

 

For either of these reasons we feel that queuing solo is the best fit for us. We should not be punished for this decision. Separating queues is NOT the answer. ACTUAL matchmaking (which is coming) and X-Server Queues (which may not be) would solve a huge portion of these problems. Also adjusting the Class Balances would go a long way as well.

 

For those of you who feel "entitled"... for whatever reason... Get off your high horses. This game is meant to be enjoyed by everyone. NOT just those of you who want to dedicate all your time to one toon, Who do not have families of your own, and (a few of you) who have absolutely no life outside a video game. Please attempt to see that the other sides problems have validity and stop trolling the forums because you think you are somehow "better" then all other players. You never know the reason that player is not "as good as you" and you may not want to find the answer. Thank you.

[AMKSED]

Ok, Y'all want a reason some of us "Do not find friends to make premades with". Easy, We stopped trying. Some of us do not have the time to sit in fleet for an hour or so, looking for that "Perfect" Class/Utility combination needed to effectively make a premade. Some of us, no longer play classes that other Premades feel are viable. I know I hate healing on my Commando, with a passion, and since I am now Commando DPS, the Premades on my server wont take me. I wont change my spec, as I feel that Commando heals need A LOT of love ATM.

 

Others of us HAD friends that we would PvP with at launch and for a time after. However, with the lackluster systems (CC, and Resolve to name 2) our friends decided to ditch this game for another, like going back to WoW or going to GW2. Leaving those of us, as stated before, who are die hard SW fans, to play a game that is in essence, failing despite itself.

 

For either of these reasons we feel that queuing solo is the best fit for us. We should not be punished for this decision. Separating queues is NOT the answer. ACTUAL matchmaking (which is coming) and X-Server Queues (which may not be) would solve a huge portion of these problems. Also adjusting the Class Balances would go a long way as well.

 

For those of you who feel "entitled"... for whatever reason... Get off your high horses. This game is meant to be enjoyed by everyone. NOT just those of you who want to dedicate all your time to one toon, Who do not have families of your own, and (a few of you) who have absolutely no life outside a video game. Please attempt to see that the other sides problems have validity and stop trolling the forums because you think you are somehow "better" then all other players. You never know the reason that player is not "as good as you" and you may not want to find the answer. Thank you.

 

Not our problem.

 

Get friends to queue with or get out.

[ArchangelLBC]

 

For those of you who feel "entitled"... for whatever reason... Get off your high horses. This game is meant to be enjoyed by everyone. NOT just those of you who want to dedicate all your time to one toon, Who do not have families of your own, and (a few of you) who have absolutely no life outside a video game. Please attempt to see that the other sides problems have validity and stop trolling the forums because you think you are somehow "better" then all other players. You never know the reason that player is not "as good as you" and you may not want to find the answer. Thank you.

 

Right back at ya big boy. Sitting on fleet for yours trying to find a perfect composition? Why are you trying that hard? You have any guildies that PVP? Group with them. You don't need a perfect composition. You could try to see our side too.

 

If you aren't bothering to form a premade then the one acting entitled is you I'm sorry to say. Premades aren't obligated to treat you with kid gloves if you solo queue and are in a total PUG team. They're using the legitimate tools available. Use them right back. Nothing will show them like giving as good as you get.

[P-Chan]

Not our problem.

 

Get friends to queue with or get out.

 

Easy... I got out... Like many are doing... Give it a few more months and yall will have your perfect premade vs premade and 1-2 hour queues. Enjoy

[P-Chan]

Right back at ya big boy. Sitting on fleet for yours trying to find a perfect composition? Why are you trying that hard? You have any guildies that PVP? Group with them. You don't need a perfect composition. You could try to see our side too.

 

If you aren't bothering to form a premade then the one acting entitled is you I'm sorry to say. Premades aren't obligated to treat you with kid gloves if you solo queue and are in a total PUG team. They're using the legitimate tools available. Use them right back. Nothing will show them like giving as good as you get.

 

the problem is, I DO see your guys' side... Your side is 'our way or get out' if you don't believe me, read the post above yours. The answer is simple, people who don't like that style of play, like myself, are saying **** this ****. We don't bother anymore. And soon, it wont matter. All you people that like to ROFLSTOMP pugs (and people have even admitted to doing it, don't try the "that doesn't happen defense) will be there together, and the only ones queuing. And you can enjoy your 1-2 hour queues. Have fun with your broken PvP that isn't fun because You can't effectively solo queue. (BTW there are PLENTY of MMOs that allow you to Solo Queue, Into a Group, That don't have any premades, and you can STILL be JUST as viable... so the system that works IS out there)

[Darth-Rammstein]

This is probably one of the longest running threads on the forum. There is obviously a lot of controversy over premade vs. pugs so they should do something to improve the situation so everyone is happy. Make a better matchmaking system that will prioritize groups to be queued against other groups and solo against other solo and if there aren't enough people on to meet the criteria then it will just lump everyone together like it does already.

[Knockerz]

Not our problem.

 

Get friends to queue with or get out.

 

More like I vote with my wallet. That usually works.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Knockerz

[Feskitt]

Not our problem.

 

Get friends to queue with or get out.

 

 

Sounds to me like all the solo queue whiners are just as afraid of premades, ...blah blah blah more excuses....

 

 

So you admit you're scared of actually facing other premades.

 

Not that everyone didn't already know that.

 

 

Now most of you aren't even bothering to use your laughable excuses to at least pretend it's about something else.

 

 

Amazing how much energy all you blow here, lobbying to your dying breath, terrified and frothing, to make sure you don't have to actually face another premade.

 

Yeah, Uscared.

[forumname]

Not our problem.

 

Get friends to queue with or get out.

 

Trying to feel better about living in your parent's basement by talking down to casual gamers?

[Smashbrother]

Why does nobody complain about having premades on their team?

 

All I see is QQ about how the enemy team has premades that stomp on them, but nobody ever whines about getting grouped with a premade.

 

That's because all you guys advocating a solo only Q LOVE it when you get grouped with a premade and get a win.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Smashbrother

[ace_boogie]

Sure going against premade after premade while solo queuing is annoying, but if you ever queued up with guildies and face rolled/carried a bunch of really bad pugs you know how much of a blast it is.

 

Too many whiners play this game.

Edited December 25, 2012 by ace_boogie

[TonyDragonflame]

System matchmaking must make solo pug vs. solo pug, 1 premade + solo pug vs. 1 premade + solo pug, and premades vs. premades.

 

Thats all.

 

Premade vs. pure solo pug must be do not acceptible.

Edited December 25, 2012 by TonyDragonflame

[Prettyevilish]

Why does nobody complain about having premades on their team?

 

All I see is QQ about how the enemy team has premades that stomp on them, but nobody ever whines about getting grouped with a premade.

 

That's because all you guys advocating a solo only Q LOVE it when you get grouped with a premade and get a win.

 

I did, if you read back many, many pages.

 

I find many of the premades that are regular PVP guilds are awful people that will putdown the rest of the team even if they're playing well. And heaven forbid the team should lose, it's your fault, not the poorly put together premade's.

[Prettyevilish]

Sure going against premade after premade while solo queuing is annoying, but if you ever queued up with guildies and face rolled/carried a bunch of really bad pugs you know how much of a blast it is.

 

Too many whiners play this game.

 

Sorry, but I don't find facerolling another team to be a 'blast'. I'd much prefer to play against a team that is equally matched against mine. The most fun I have is WZs where the teams are so evenly matched (either through sheerly being bad or because both are that good) and the caps keep changing and everyone is actually FIGHTING for the win, not just steamrolling over the other team.

 

The fact that you find that fun is largely what's wrong with PVP in ANY game. Too many people don't want to compete on equal terms; they just want to win (and that's 'fun' for them).

[UncelSam]

I totally agree that the WZs are runied by these preamde team clown, that are too coward to run ranked WZs. Instead they go to the regular WZs to show off and ruin the pvp for 100s of players.

 

Give me balanced fights and NEW players to fight agaisnt, not same old premade team running in a loop runing the pvp of all others.

 

A way would be removing the premade team option or place premades in a queue line of thier own. Its BAD BUSINESS to get ANNOYED CUSTOMERS!! You can also open up the WZ instance to be shared by all servers to get rotation.

[FROIDBUSTER]

Sorry, but I don't find facerolling another team to be a 'blast'. I'd much prefer to play against a team that is equally matched against mine. The most fun I have is WZs where the teams are so evenly matched (either through sheerly being bad or because both are that good) and the caps keep changing and everyone is actually FIGHTING for the win, not just steamrolling over the other team.

 

The fact that you find that fun is largely what's wrong with PVP in ANY game. Too many people don't want to compete on equal terms; they just want to win (and that's 'fun' for them).

 

See here's where I would disagree. Early on in my STWOR leveling I started grouping with other random Warzoners, I just had happened to see the same people in a a couple of matches, and we somehow just started grouping up for faster queues.

 

Now of course gear and all that stuff matters to an extent, especially at 50, but really the biggest difference is this:

 

.In my average pub v. pub game the closest thing to strategy is 'call inc' or a really passive-agressive "Like 2 people go left guys'.

 

I dunno if it's the tougher competition or what, but if I see people I know on the other team, in order to beat them I'm more than willing to dump that simplistic '2/6' crap and start naming people off to go to specific locations. Or ask my group pregame if anyone is healing and name off people to watch for them getting tunneled, tell people periodically to scout uncapped objective to see if a stealther can ninja it, etc etc.

 

And people respond to that ****. I've been beaten by a solo-queued buddy just because him or just the team in general took charge to outplay our group.

 

And that's the funny thing most of our group started as those pubs, its' just after great games we started inviting each other into groups and adding people to friendlsits so we could play with people we knew-somewhat and get faster queues.

Edited December 25, 2012 by FROIDBUSTER