Beniboybling Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Round 3 (Grievous vs Savage Oppress) was another close one, so I'm going to declare it a draw. Hopefully we'll see this fight in the future on TCW. I've also decided to declare Visas Marr the winner over Brianna for the time being. But on to Round 4, the big guns are coming in now. Round 4: Darth Traya vs Darth Plagueis The wisest Sith of the Order and masters of manipulation, both were extremely knowledgeable in the force and especially the dark side; they were also famed for the legacy of their students. Darth Traya the Lord of Betrayal was teacher to the likes of Revan and leader of the Sith Triumvirate who almost destroyed the Jedi. She used a great variety of force abilities, and could wield three lightsabers at a time telekinetically, using many lightsaber forms including the rare form Trakata. Darth Plagueis was the master of the infamous Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith lord who ever lived. A master of the dark side, he could wield powerful force energies strong enough to vaporize his enemies and was also highly skilled in lightsaber combat - able to dual wield. Who would win? (you may have judged by the quote, but I'm a fan if Darth Traya so be nice ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBandeth Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Plagueis. If Traya manages to injure/kill him, he can just use midichlorian manipulation, or maybe even use it on her to kill her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Plagueis. If Traya manages to injure/kill him, he can just use midichlorian manipulation, or maybe even use it on her to kill her. While the latter is possible (although highly unlikely considering Kreia's knowledge of the force and awareness of it) Plagueis could not apply his powers to himself. That's why Sidious managed to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 If the Rule of Two holds up (let's be real, it does) then Plaguies wins. At the time of his death he was most likely more powerful that Darth Sidious was at the time. Hence the way he was killed. Not much is really known about Plaguies' power, even the novel Plaguies doesn't provide an in depth analysis of his power so we don't have much to work with. Traya wasn't that powerful during her time. Her main power was her ability to manipulate others and, while that was helpful during the events of KOTOR 2, in an actual duel whe wouldn't beat Plaguies. Plaguies had much more knowledge of the Force than Traya could ever imagine. Sidious even reflects upon his masters knowledge several years after Plaguies' death. Plaguies doesn't need much proof beyond the Rule of Two for people to know he is the winner. I know you like Kreia more, but we can't let personal bias get in the way of a debate. (That is in no way meant to be offensive ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismercu Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) I'd go with Traya, she taught Nihilus how to consume planets. So her knowledge of the force is not limited as some would think. I think as generations pass sith lords become weaker and so do Jedi. There are anomalies of course. Edited October 2, 2012 by Ismercu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Traya wasn't that powerful during her time. Her main power was her ability to manipulate others and, while that was helpful during the events of KOTOR 2, in an actual duel whe wouldn't beat Plaguies. Plaguies had much more knowledge of the Force than Traya could ever imagine. Sidious even reflects upon his masters knowledge several years after Plaguies' death. I'd say Plageuis' knowledge is less focused on combat, and more on understanding and manipulation - which would be of little use in a fight. Traya however knows a lot about how to use the force against her enemies, she could use force healing to kill her enemies (when she dropped all those assassins without raising a finger), she knows how to use shatterpoint, and she even managed to cut off the remaining jedi masters from the force, easily. Plaguies doesn't need much proof beyond the Rule of Two for people to know he is the winner. I know you like Kreia more, but we can't let personal bias get in the way of a debate. (That is in no way meant to be offensive ) Of course, of course. Just don't say she's rubbish, or she's all talk - it would break my heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Plageuis Are you seriously going to vote for Traya instead of the Master of the Most Powerful Sith Lord ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Plageuis Are you seriously going to vote for Traya instead of the Master of the Most Powerful Sith Lord ever? Consider this, (you may not have read Darth Plageuis but this is what happens) Plageuis is at some secret meeting with some other Muuns when they are suddenly attacked by group of elite Maladin assassins. Plageuis is accompanied by two of this own Sun Guards, the assassins kill the Muuns, the sun guards and severly wound Plageuis, forcing him to wear a breath mask for the rest of his life. Darth Traya arrives on Malachor, and is confronted by a group of elite sith assassins (roughly the same amount) she uses her powers in dark healing to kill them all simultaneously without raising a finger and without a scratch. From this alone Traya seems the more powerful, of course we have to consider that Plageuis was not expecting the attack and perhaps hesistant to reveal himself infront of the other Muuns (although they died pretty quickly). Whereas in the case of Kreia, she new the were coming, and had trained them herself. Even so, Traya's encounter remains the more impressive. I'm not totally convinced Traya would win but it would not be an outright victory. Yes you say Plagueis trained the most powerful sith lord ever, but Palpatine already had great power already and would have become just as powerful with any other master. Plageuis's wisdom made him a good teacher, not necessarily a fighter (Sidious didn't have to duel him to kill him, just drug him then shock him). And Kreia was arguably just as good a teacher, she trained Nihilius who consumed a planet, (she taught him how) and Sion who she taught to keep himself alive with rage. Together they almost wiped out the Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 On the point of Traya teaching Nihilus and Sion these unique powers they had. She didn't necessarily teach then these powers. Nihilus gained his power after the events of Malachor. Traya assisted him learning how to manipulate it. Until I make further research on Sion I will concede that point. Since the Rule of Two worked we have to mark Plagueis in the top 5 of Sith. Traya wouldn't make it in the top 10 because she didn't have a lot of power. She was a teacher that helped her students realize their potential, but she herself did not have an uber amount of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Let me clear this up, Darth Traya taught Revan, Nihilus and Sion, three rather large fish in the tank so to speak, to what degree Traya taught Revan, we do not know but KotOR II: TSL suggests quite a lot, Nihilus was fully trained by Traya to harness his power, Sion was trained in Pain, she showed him how to focus that rage into an unstoppable killing machine, strong enough to take down Lonna Vash (someone who as a Padawan survived Ulic-Qel Droma himself). She made the Jedi Council look amateur in comparison to herself, despite them all being renowned order members and then we have the Exile whom she re-trained into the rather unique traits of Nexus proficiency. Simply put, Traya is no weakling, her ability to manipulate the force to the point of using a Dark variant of the Wall of (erm) Light to kill all those masters in one go says a lot to me, along with Malak, she is one of the very under-rated Sith Lords of the era. And if Drew Karpyshyn is to be believed, she isn't dead and is claimed by Darth Vowrawn to be the embodiment of the Dark Side itself. Edited October 2, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Let me clear this up, Darth Traya taught Revan, Nihilus and Sion, three rather large fish in the tank so to speak, to what degree Traya taught Revan, we do not know but KotOR II: TSL suggests quite a lot, Nihilus was fully trained by Traya to harness his power, Sion was trained in Pain, she showed him how to focus that rage into an unstoppable killing machine, strong enough to take down Lonna Vash (someone who as a Padawan survived Ulic-Qel Droma himself). She made the Jedi Council look amateur in comparison to herself, despite them all being renowned order members and then we have the Exile whom she re-trained into the rather unique traits of Nexus proficiency. Simply put, Traya is no weakling, her ability to manipulate the force to the point of using a Dark variant of the Wall of (erm) Light to kill all those masters in one go says a lot to me, along with Malak, she is one of the very under-rated Sith Lords of the era. And if Drew Karpyshyn is to be believed, she isn't dead and is claimed by Darth Vowrawn to be the embodiment of the Dark Side itself. Traya is powerful, but compared to Plagueis she isn't really a contender. And I wouldn't say she is the embodiment of the Dark Side either. That right is clearly reserved for Sidious. Edited October 2, 2012 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Darth Traya. The question is who would win in a fight, not who is more powerful. Honestly, I think telekinetic lightsaber fighting would be Traya's greatest weapon. Plagueis's twin lightsabers wouldn't be able to hold up against the onslaught of three or four being controled by the Force. Plagueis's speed might give him an edge, but Traya's awareness (seeing through the Force) would probably keep up with him. And most, if not all, of Plagueis's Force powers would be useless against Traya. Her willpower would either enable to to resist them or she could heal herself. A lightning lock between them might go in Plagueis's favor, but telekinetic attacks could easily be countered by Traya. So yeah, I'm giving it to Traya. No doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Traya is powerful, but compared to Plagueis she isn't really a contender. And I wouldn't say she is the embodiment of the Dark Side either. That right is clearly reserved for Sidious. Darth Sidious was the greatest Dark Side practitioner, that doesn't envelope him as the greatest manifestation of Dark Side energy at all though, he was close, being a Nexus, but the likes of Nihilus, the Entity(Possibly Traya) and some others especially the Son and Abeloth are clearly more made up of Dark Side energy than Sidious ever was, Sidious is still a mortal being, not a Dark Side manifestation. Plagueis was never claimed to have been all that much either, in-fact many times it is shown that he isn't really a combatant but a scholar, he doesn't have the power level of someone like Bane or Zannah, that is obvious, but his knowledge of Force lore and archives makes him the most proficient life force manipulator we've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Hey My friends - You'll be Glad to see that I am here to drag out another debate As I said at the End of the last debate - I don't really know that much about Plagueis - but by default being a rule of two Banite Sith that was Sidious' master would immediately make me choose him...... but I know you guys want me to drag this out some more....and I actually think that I can Darth Traya (Kreia) is one of my absolute favourite Characters so I owe it to her to at least try and give her a Fighting Chance (based on some kind of factual analysis of course...) I haven't read the Plagueis' book - (I have been meaning to - so I have to speculate on some things - so please correct me if I am wrong) I would Assume that Plagueis would be the Superior Lightsaber Duellist being the Master of Sidious (and Sidious being such a great Duellist) However this does not necessarily have to be the Case - for instance Darth Zannah was Great at Sith Sorcery whereas her Master Darth Bane wasn't very strong at all in Sorcery - Bane gave her the means and materials to study it for herself and she Mastered those teachings on her own..... It could be a similar Case with Sidious' Lightsaber Skills - Plagueis may have provided some ancient Sith Lightsaber Duelling Holocrons (ie ... the lost holocron of Tulak Hord or something ) for Sidious to study for himself...... and it could well be the case (i'll come to that later) does anyone know what lightsaber form/forms that Plagueis has mastered or has he anywhere demonstrated impressive lightsaber skills or what his offensive force arsenal consists of (I would assume lightning somwhere... )? (this is a question not a statement)...... However - I realise that I know a bit more about Plagueis than I thought - Due to the holocron to my left hand side containing... The Book of the Sith The Book of the Sith is not exactly a codex but a collection of writings of various prominent Sith throughout the ages -(Plagueis is one of them).... so it gives you a lot of insights into their thought processes and personalities Now Plagueis is an interesting character indeed and comes across a lot more like a Mad scientist than a Sith Lord... And it seems that he did have some pretty significant limitations.....which HE chose to do to himself...... Plagueis was EXTREMELY focused on his Midichlorian Manipulation studies - that it seems that it was to the detriment to Other aspects of his abilities....... For a Start Plagueis totally dismisses the More Esoteric aspects of the force (So throw Sith Sorcery or Rituals out of the window)... He doesn't even believe in Sith Spirits!!!!!! (also it doesn't seem too far fetched to Suggest that he may have Seen Saber Duelling as 'brutish' and benath him - and too much time away from his Midichlorian studies and perhaps made Sidious study it more - so Sidious could be the 'Enforcer' so to speak) He also seems to Have a Very Big Weakness alluded to by both Luke Skywalker and Sidious... It seems that Plagueis had very poor Force Awareness - Luke even speculates that the Force may not have talked to Plagueis (or perhaps if it did - he never listened) Sidious says the his Master's focus was so Narrow that he failed to see the immediate threats around him (perhaps this is why Sidious embraced all aspects of Sith Training - because he realised that being more well rounded would give him an Edge against his Master - and Plagueis may have well been too unaware of Sidious' Growing power and threat) Poor Force Awareness could well be exploited by someone as intelligent, Manipulative and Cunning as Traya.... Plagueis was Definitely one of the most powerful Sith Lords and He knew More about Midichlorian manipulation than anyone else ever (Sidious himself readily admits that - Sidious became the most powerful Sith Lord ever - but still never equalled Plagueis in this aspect.....) However, as I said before this was at the expense of a lot of other aspects (some he didn't even seem to think worthy of Study) Also in terms of Duelling - can this Midichlorian manipulation be brought to bear? (does anyone know?.....it seems to be more like science experiments and alchemy) If it could, I would assume it would be more defensively focused - for instance: Plagueis could be immune to things like 'Sever Force' or even Nihilus' Life Drain powers... but Ultimately we know that he isn't invulnerable and can be killed....). No Doubt that Plagueis' Inherent Force powers will be Strong So he will probably be a Challenge for anybody based on that alone..... Traya is extremely knowledgable and manipulative (even amongst other Sith/Jedi) and she will be able to bring things to the table that Plagueis will not have bothered to spend any time learning - she seems to have Quite a diverse range of Abilities.. So you never know - some relatively obscure (Old School esoteric) abilities may be effective against Plagueis because he hasn't bothered to learn about them (or their countermeasures) So this Combined with Plagueis' lack of Force Awareness - You never know....Traya may have a Chance... And if all else fails - Traya can do her 'Hard to get' thing.... and someone with Plagueis' Obsessive personailty will be like a Puppet on a String to her... Edited October 2, 2012 by fellblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacarius Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) I'd have to go Traya in this fight. Since Plagueis isn't a wound in the force, there's nothing to stop Traya killing him by 'making him see the force through the eyse of the exile'like the masters on Dantoine (correct me if there's some lore I'm missing). It would be an interesting fight though, I don't see these two characters as the type that would face each other in a one on one, it seems more in keeping with their character that they would use proxies or puppets to try and take each other out. Edited October 3, 2012 by Vacarius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Darth Sidious was the greatest Dark Side practitioner, that doesn't envelope him as the greatest manifestation of Dark Side energy at all though, he was close, being a Nexus, but the likes of Nihilus, the Entity(Possibly Traya) and some others especially the Son and Abeloth are clearly more made up of Dark Side energy than Sidious ever was, Sidious is still a mortal being, not a Dark Side manifestation. Plagueis was never claimed to have been all that much either, in-fact many times it is shown that he isn't really a combatant but a scholar, he doesn't have the power level of someone like Bane or Zannah, that is obvious, but his knowledge of Force lore and archives makes him the most proficient life force manipulator we've seen. What you say is true, but I believe Sidious to be a greater Dark Side manifestation than Traya. I don't think the entity is Traya, but it seems to be most likely that she is. I hope they explain how she became the Entity after Malachor. I would go so far as to say that Plagueis is the wisest Sith Lord ever. I say Plagueis would win this duel because of the Rule of Two. If Plagueis is weaker than Bane, that would make him a failure in the Banite Line which was intended to make the Sith stronger with each new pair. Maybe he isn't as powerful in his 'application' but I believe him to have a greater knowledge of using the Force than any before him. And that could make the difference in this fight. Edited October 2, 2012 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'd have to go Traya in this fight. Since Plagueis isn't a wound in the force, there's nothing to stop Traya killing him by 'making him see the force through the eyse of the exile'like the masters on Dantoine (correct me if there's some lore I'm missing). It would be an interesting fight though, I don't see these two characters as the type that would face each other in a one on one, it seems more in keeping with their character that they would use proxies or puppets to try and take each other out. Your not wrong, I don't see any reason why Traya couldn't use this power on him - whether Plagueis would resist it or not I don't know. I was thinking about this and I think Traya would open the fight with her telekinetic lightsaber move, Plagueis would of course, have little trouble in defending against this, due to his profound agility, and ability to dual wield. But it would only serve as a distraction, allowing Traya to use shatterpoint to find Plagueis' weaknesses, once done she could launch a fierce attack on him (maybe a using force healing) and kill him (OK so maybe not kill him but she'd get an edge ) Unless of course, Plagueis being a wise master - although weak in force awareness - might predict an attack. (Although this fight would occur without them knowing each others abilities) and combat it, attempting to engage her rather than her lightsabers. It would be cool to see a Kaggath (for those who haven't done SI storyline its a fight between sith, but power base against power base) between them. Traya would have her academy, assassins and sith fleet. While Plageius would have his various fortresses i.e. Sojourn, his Sun Guard and countless political/economic contacts. Out of interest, who do you think would win in a Kaggath....hmmmmm future thread idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 This battle has to be the most interesting yet. In order to find a clear victor, we have to analyze both combatants. So what do we know about Traya. Wise teacher and powerful Sith Lord. Traya's main ability is manipulation. We have seen it before. She manipulates people into doing things they wouldn't normally do, usually through some empty promise. She will usually use her manipulation skills to gain an ally or to stop an enemy from attacking her. But if her manipulations fail, she can always rely on her Force abilities. She is very powerful in the Force, but she has a weakness. her dueling skills are less that remarkable. Which forces her to resort to using her Force powers in the fight. But Plagueis is a very different fighter. He has everything Traya has, but he also has incredible dueling skills. His ability to dual-wield Lightsabers allows him to easily dispatch Traya's telekinetic Lightsaber ability. But he is also very powerful in the Force. Having over a millenia of Sith knowledge at his command (whether or not he actually took the time to learn these Dark secrets is another matter) gives him the ability to be very strong in the Force. He is also a manipulator like Traya, having put the Grand Plan into motion. And last, but not least, he is very wise. No doubt the wisest Sith in history. This will also play a role in the battle as well. All in all, I think this battle could go either way. Traya would have to do something that Plagueis can't counter and Plagueis would have to get in close and use his speed and skill as a duelist to get the win in this fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I agree with the point that Traya may be able to just sever his connection or drain him dry, could he resist these abilities? that's the big question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I agree with the point that Traya may be able to just sever his connection or drain him dry, could he resist these abilities? that's the big question. It depends on if he learned everything he had to learn from the millenia worth of Sith knowledge he had. We know that Sidious most likely could so it begs the question if Plagueis can or not. We can't really make a decision on that until we find some concrete evidence on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It depends on if he learned everything he had to learn from the millenia worth of Sith knowledge he had. We know that Sidious most likely could so it begs the question if Plagueis can or not. We can't really make a decision on that until we find some concrete evidence on the subject. From what I can gather from Plagueis it seems that he did not...... he was so Focused on his Midichlorian Manipulation and had a pretty narrow view of things - he seemed to have dismissed some teachings of the past as worthless superstition.... However, interestingly enough..... it seems that he is well aware of the Sever Force ability and he says that it is pretty much the inverse of what he was doing (influencing the Midichlorians to create life) - So he probably had found a way to resist that particular ability...... The Kaggath Idea is in interesting one - and in that I would give a significant advantage to Traya.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 So what do we know about Traya. Wise teacher and powerful Sith Lord. Traya's main ability is manipulation. We have seen it before. She manipulates people into doing things they wouldn't normally do, usually through some empty promise. She will usually use her manipulation skills to gain an ally or to stop an enemy from attacking her. I think we should forget about her manipulating abilities, these wouldn't be of any use in a straight up duel. I'd say her greatest ability is her force powers, and in particular, dark healing. Dark healing is how she dropped those assassins without raising a finger. And she used the sever force to kill the Jedi Masters. I'm not sure what Plageuis's greatest ability is, his extremely well rounded and very powerful in the force and with the lightsaber, but Traya has a lot of unpredictable and rare abilities that could give her the advantage of suprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I think we should forget about her manipulating abilities, these wouldn't be of any use in a straight up duel. I'd say her greatest ability is her force powers, and in particular, dark healing. Dark healing is how she dropped those assassins without raising a finger. And she used the sever force to kill the Jedi Masters. I'm not sure what Plageuis's greatest ability is, his extremely well rounded and very powerful in the force and with the lightsaber, but Traya has a lot of unpredictable and rare abilities that could give her the advantage of suprise. Based off of what fellblade said, I would have to say that Plagueis could resist sever Force. But both of these combatants are not one-trick ponies. They both have something going for them. Traya has a lot of rare Force powers on her side and Plagueis has wisdom and dueling skills going for him. In order for either of them to gain the upper hand, they have to use their advatages correctly. One wrong move and they're dead. In that regard I would have to give it to Plagueis. He is one of, if not, the wisest Sith Lord ever and is no fool in battle. Though he isn't a very good judge of character evidenced by the way he died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Plagueis can Challenge and shift the Force to the Dark Side Let midichlorian leave a person's body to kill him Revive the dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBandeth Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 While the latter is possible (although highly unlikely considering Kreia's knowledge of the force and awareness of it) Plagueis could not apply his powers to himself. That's why Sidious managed to kill him. Are you sure? I'm aware of the film's dialogue "He could save others from death, but not himself", but I assumed that meant that he wasn't able to save himself because he was sleeping when Palpatine killed him, not because he couldn't apply his powers to himself. It doesn't make much sense being able to be able to manipulate midiclhorians in any other person's body but not your own, and I can't find any quotes/information regarding an inability to apply his technique to himself. I think Traya would be a powerful adversary but ultimately Plagueis would win. His knowledge of midichlorian manipulation I believe would allow him to resist any draining effects of Traya, and I also think it's unfair to say that his near death experience when he was almost assassinated implies weakness, considering that Bane was captured alive by a bunch of soldiers with stun guns and an Iktotchi with poisoned daggers (we all know how powerful and ****** Bane is). Surprise would be Traya's best weapon against Plagueis, but I don't think it'd be enough to kill him in a straight up fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts