Wounding Shots vs Cull - (slow activation for WS)

[Hessdalen]

I've got a Gunslinger and a Sniper. Playing Dirty Fighting and Lethality, I noticed a big difference in these two spells. Wounding Shots for GS is really slow to activate vs Cull for Sniper, which is instantly activated. It reminds me of how slow the Troopers, Mortar Volley was compared to the Bounty Hunters, Death From Above. I imagine it's because of the animation wind up.

 

Is this a known issue to any of you Gunslinger, Dirty Fighting specced players? And if not, where should I post so that Bioware can become aware of this problem?

 

Thanks

Edited September 18, 2012 by Hessdalen
wrong spell name

[Synavix]

The animations are slower/faster, but the actual ticks of damage are still evenly spaced at 1, 2, and 3 seconds into the cast (without alacrity), regardless of what you might think from the animation/sound effect.

[warultima]

IMO Gunslingers somehow really have some issue comparing themselves (the better mirror) to snipers (the hosed mirror), even tho gunslingers have more burst, more chance to apply effects like leg shot flourish shot and vital shot, better suited cooldowns (illegal mods gives huge accuracy thats valuable to slinger but worthless to sniper), outscaling snipers and a customizable offhand.

 

Yet I see gunslingers complaining about how they cant get 5k medal as easy (even tho they are doing more damage and burst), how they are hosed companion wise, how they have to buy 2 guns (again another advantage to slinger you can start off with a WH main with BM offhand the split second you turn 50 but sniper cant get his WH Sniper rifle w/ BM OH), how their attacks does a quarter of the damage compare to sniper's mirror attack (because torhead's tooltip error)...

 

This also reminds me a QQ post on scondrel forum saying how Backblast is Slower than Backstab when both has exact same timing in animation delay and attack.

 

I mean damn... Slinger > Sniper endgame (at least for those who knows what I am talking about and how the game mechanics work).

Edited September 18, 2012 by warultima

[Hessdalen]

The animations are slower/faster, but the actual ticks of damage are still evenly spaced at 1, 2, and 3 seconds into the cast (without alacrity), regardless of what you might think from the animation/sound effect.

 

Have you tested it? Maybe you're right, but it sure feels unresponsive nevertheless.

 

And to the guy above, how does gunslinger have a better chance to leg shot etc?

[warultima]

Have you tested it? Maybe you're right, but it sure feels unresponsive nevertheless.

 

And to the guy above, how does gunslinger have a better chance to leg shot etc?

 

I explained it in a different thread and tested it myself.

SWTOR's game mechanic is strange at times. Leg shot itself is a weapon attack while the effect is tech but the tech effect only apply if the attack lands (so is vital shot and so on).

 

Gunslinger always attack with both guns (hence damage are split). Either shot lands applies the effect.

Assuming base chance to hit of weapon attack of 90% (which is true for both gunslinger and sniper's main hand attack). Gunslinger gets an additional shot from offhand at 33% accuracy penalty in relation to the main hand.

 

In this case Sniper has 90% chance to land the leg shot, with no offhand attack. Gunslinger has a 90% chance to land the MH attack and 59.4% chance to land the offhand attack.

 

Now using legshot for example.

Sniper has 90% chance to hit and root.

Gunslinger has 90% chance to hit and root from their main hand attack, and 59.4% to hit and root from their offhand attack.

 

After some test, its possible to miss the main hand attack but lands the offhand, for gunslinger, either shot lands applies the attack, sniper has no such luxury as their attack are always 1 shot.

 

This thread

Discussed how gunslinger and sniper are balanced at below "hit cap" but also pointed out how when Gunslingers lands both shots result in superior damage (higher burst per attack).

 

Further the balance (balance means equal dps overtime, however gunslinger will *always* have higher burst potential equally geared)"breaks" when accuracy level is over 105%. And how Illegal mods further buffing the chance to hit of slingers offhand while the 30% accuracy provides no benefit to a well geared sniper since they are already sitting at accuracy cap. As gear progress, gunslinger begins to scale better and better. This is true even if the gunslinger stops to take more accuracy like snipers would at 105% hit in this case the "balance" from item stat is NOT broken per se. However offensive cooldowns and talents alike that increase accuracy continue to provide a linear boost to slinger's offhand while providing no benefit to snipers.

 

Mathmatically proven Gunslinger has superior burst and much less failure (Gunslinger are innately ~50% less likely to *completely* miss an attack which not only have no effect also puts the attack on CD) to execute attacks like leg shot which could be live and death difference.

 

The two classes works like this assumingjust spamming aimed shot with no cooldown and always crit over and over. w/ 100% chance to hit on MH. (2.5 second per attack) vs a target with 0 damage mitigation.

 

Sniper: (5500), (5500), (5500), (5500), (5500), (5500) over 15 seconds = 2200 dps

Gunslinger: (4500 + 1500), (4500 + 1500), (4500 + miss) , (4500 +1500), (4500 + miss), (4500 + 1500) over 15 seconds = 2200 dps.

 

Illegal mod CD is used. (assuming target has zero armor and zero mitigation)

Sniper will still do the same 2200 dps while gunslinger's 1500 per offhand attack will be 30% less likely to miss which on average will increase damage by 450 per attack above sniper.

I really can't think of any easier way to explain this, if you still dont get it, I am sorry I cannot help you.

Edited September 19, 2012 by warultima

[Synavix]

Have you tested it? Maybe you're right, but it sure feels unresponsive nevertheless.

 

And to the guy above, how does gunslinger have a better chance to leg shot etc?

 

I have played around with it on both my classes, yes. I have *not* done any noteworthy testing on it with any sort of accurate timing or frapsing. Probably messed with it for a total of 30 minutes on my class ships, with no noticeable server or ability lag, both with and without sounds. I was specced into the 4% alacrity in Dirty Fighting on both characters, and the timing on each cast was, as far as I could make out, the same.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a difference, but in this case I think it is just a case of bad animation.

[Hessdalen]

Cool, thanks for the info guys. Never thought it could get so elaborate.

[Missandei]

The two classes works like this assumingjust spamming aimed shot with no cooldown and always crit over and over. w/ 100% chance to hit on MH. (2.5 second per attack) vs a target with 0 damage mitigation.

 

Sniper: (5500), (5500), (5500), (5500), (5500), (5500) over 15 seconds = 2200 dps

Gunslinger: (4500 + 1500), (4500 + 1500), (4500 + miss) , (4500 +1500), (4500 + miss), (4500 + 1500) over 15 seconds = 2200 dps.

 

 

Why your OffHand damage is so high?

Though i dont have 50lvl toon, but my OffHand Damge is likely 10-12% that of MainHand. When i hit mob it is something like 950 MH and ~120 OH...

And in the stats tooltips on «Ranged» according to AskMrRobot profile, Min-Max damage from OH is about ~12% from MH Min-Max damage..

 

According to MrRobot, while MH damage consists of BaseDamage+BonusDamage, OH damage is calculated by BaseDamage*30%.. without any BonusDamage taken in Account

(30% - DualWielder Multiplier)

 

Thus, the Offhand damage is a way bit smaller than you pictured and it`s influence on the overall damage under crit and with no miss is not that drastic.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Missandei

[Missandei]

lol..

ok, i have created 2 chars in AskMrRobot with identical Main/Secondary stats and identical skillTrees

Sniper Damage:

MH 933.4 - 1030.4

 

Gunslinger Damage:

MH: 781.3 - 1024.3

OH: 85.2 - 158.1

 

So the picture is very strange - though Slinger have MIN damage is much smaller that of Sniper, the Average and MAX Damage is a little better..

 

And in TorHead ( i know that it is not very reliable source) the same abilities for Smuggler have the damage values only 66% of a Sniper ones..

Edited September 21, 2012 by Missandei

[Synavix]

I believe you are correct in that your OH is not affected by bonus damage like MH is. You're also right that a Gunslinger has higher potential max damage, which is what warultima was explaining with their higher burst potential. However, keep in mind that on average your OH will be missing quite often, so mathematically your additional OH damage will only be a fraction of that.

 

As far as Torhead, it's wildly inaccurate. Take Quickdraw vs Takedown for example. The site claims that both are based off of green geared level 50 characters, but that's not true. It shows Quickdraw at 918 - 1195 base damage, and Takedown at 3812 - 4089. In reality, both my campaign geared Slinger and Sniper have a base damage in the ballpark of 3200-3500 depending on buffs.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Synavix

[Missandei]

However, keep in mind that on average your OH will be missing quite often, so mathematically your additional OH damage will only be a fraction of that.

 

Yes. Sure.

In my «test» profile Slinger OH have Accuracy of 69.3%.

So, «corrected» values for slinger OH should be

MH 781.3 - 1024.3

OH 59.5 - 110.6

 

In averages it is ~ 987 for Slinger and 982 for Sniper..

 

But i think that in such circumstances Sniper have a more RELIABLE chance for a burst..

Edited September 21, 2012 by Missandei

[Synavix]

I would tend to agree with that as well, but in reality its all very situational and theoretical. On one hand, the higher potential burst could give you more kills in PvP, but especially in a ranked setting the opposite could be said in that the potential to have a bad string of RNG on OH misses could mean that your target is able to be healed up by the enemy easier. I personally feel that accuracy does not play as large a role in this game as it could...from what I recall in WoW most classes were make-or-break completely around the stat, which I actually liked.

 

As far as PvE...I probably prefer the snipers consistency again, just because repetition is king. Relying on luck makes your DPS fluctuate more often, and can also cause more issues with threat drops and burst aggro.

[Anysao]

I found your problem; there aren't any spells in this game.

[RathSartaro]

[Sinsavz]

Now both Cull and Wounding Shots animations have been changed to the horrible spammy PEWPEWPEW one now instead of the awesome lock-on effects, enjoy. Edited September 26, 2012 by Sinsavz

[HeavensTerror]

The new WS is amazing. Love the rapid fire of it.

[Synavix]

It looks alright in-cover, but using it outside of cover just looks dumb. I liked the "windup" the old one had.