ATTN Developers: 1.4 Vanguard changes, Storm as a base ability

[DacRycar]

After some exhaustive testing on the PTR, I am more a believer that Hold the Line is not an effective "gap closer."

 

Here is what I've found:

First, Hold the Line does not stack with Sprint. While out of combat, Hold the Line does not increase the speed of the Trooper.

 

Second, the talent Battlefield Training and Hold the Line do not stack; however, the speed at reaching the target while in combat is arguably negligible. On a measured course, while in combat, the Trooper managed to reach the target less than 1 second sooner with Hold the Line active.

 

While this may already be known on the Live servers, I was also testing the DPS of the new Tactics. While I'm not impressed with my numbers, my copied character is months behind my live character in gear.

 

I encourage anyone with a character already copied to the PTS to test this and share your results. According to my experiments, Hold the Line is not a "gap closer" no a sprint, but rather a utility to break or prevent certain enemy CCs. The 30% speed boost negates this talent as a "sprint."

 

Discuss.

Edited September 15, 2012 by DacRycar

[Kitru]

Second, the talent Battlefield Training and Hold the Line do stack

 

Are you sure that it stacks? No other speed buffs stack with each other, passive or static. All that they do is overlap, so that a 15% move speed and a 30% move speed increase simply provide you with a 130% movement speed total, not 145%. Every test I've ever seen with *every other move speed increase* and whether it stacks has shown that it doesn't. Unless Hold the Line is completely different from all of the others, they don't stack; they overlap.

[ZeroPlus]

... Giving yet another class the ability to leap between levels would be absolutely game changing, ...

 

Let me just clarify one thing if I may. Their are currently only 2 Classes (Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior) and 1 talent spec (tank) of another 2 Advanced Classes (Vanguard and Powertech) that have a leap. Considering that the 2 Classes in question are melee classes and that the 2 Advanced Classes in question are being retuned to be melee classes as well, it only makes sense that VG/PTs also get a "leap".

 

The easiest way to do that is by swapping the way Storm/Jet Charge and Harpoon/Grapple are acquired.

 

That is all.

Nothing else is needed.

No rebalancing.

No testing the abilities.

No testing what happens if such and such a talent is mixed with such and such skill.

Nothing.

 

Just change it so that Storm/Jet Charge is learnt at lvl22, and that Harpoon/Grapple is the ability you can take at level 30 as your 21-point skill in the tank tree. No other change would be needed. (They could even keep the dependancy of the 2 skills that buff Storm/Jet Charge in place.)

 

This is something they could test on the PTS. That is what it is there for. It is a Public Test Server. They could code the change and see what happens. If they don't like what they see, then they change it back. Simple.

 

Your alternative solution is just too convoluted. Just look at the amount of change you are proposing instead. The amount of coding and testing that would be needed is just insane.

[Kitru]

The easiest way to do that is by swapping the way Storm/Jet Charge and Harpoon/Grapple are acquired.

 

I'm curious why exactly people are asking for the Pull and the Leap to be switched. Personally, I don't really see much problem in having them both be baseline. After all, there's 2 Leaps and a KB baseline for Guardians (Sentinels get a bunch of other utility instead). Shadows get their KB and their gap closer by default (Force Speed isn't a Leap, but it's there). Guardians even get an ally Leap in addition to their baseline one.

 

Honestly, I don't see a reason why VGs shouldn't have both made available to them by default. In PvP, Pulls are affected by Resolve and it's not like VGs have a load of other utility attached to them compared to other classes. All that Assault VGs used to be able to do effectively was burst DPS effectively from range; now they can't really do that thanks to the range nerfs. Shield VGs have no real great utility over Shadows or Guards; honestly, they have the best passive mitigation, but they have the worst when you factor in every other factor, not to mention the fewest effective CDs and they don't even bring in any special utility to a group (Guardians have the leap and the armor debuff; Shadows have the CC, stealth, and a pull, KB, *and* Force Speed as a gap closer). About the closest VG tanks get is Neural Surge, which is nice but only really serves as an off-target interrupt thanks to the short duration. Tactics gets Hold the Line, which is questionable utility at best, coupled with some slows. Compared to what every other AC gets, I'm not really seeing a reason why it would be all that borked for all VGs to get both. In PvE, it definitely wouldn't be so the only real problem would be PvP and, honestly, I don't really see it being that big of an issue thanks to what everyone else gets (this is, of course, assuming that the CD on an all-VG Storm is increased from 15 to 20 seconds or so to account for VG low grade ranged viability).

Edited September 16, 2012 by Kitru
Correcting late night herping

[DacRycar]

Are you sure that it stacks? No other speed buffs stack with each other, passive or static. All that they do is overlap, so that a 15% move speed and a 30% move speed increase simply provide you with a 130% movement speed total, not 145%. Every test I've ever seen with *every other move speed increase* and whether it stacks has shown that it doesn't. Unless Hold the Line is completely different from all of the others, they don't stack; they overlap.

 

Late night post. Edited above to state that it does NOT stack. Thanks for catching that, Kitru.

[Kitru]

Overall, I think the best approach would be to hand out Storm as a base ability, but restricted to on-level and on a longer cooldown. Talent the ability in the Shield tree to allow it to act as a true jump and reduce its cooldown to current levels. Thus, Shield vanguards would be unaffected, while all other vanguards would get a gap closer slightly superior to Force Speed (since it is targeted and uninterruptable).

 

You know, I'm not entirely sure that it's possible for the game engine to handle massive tweaks to abilities like that. It might be possible to construct an arbitrary system to remove one ability and replace it with another of the same name but a different effect, but I'm not even sure that would work. Of course, if the game has the capability to have an ability determine pathing with restrictions and determine validity on the fly, it's probably not even an issue, but the problems with pathing that companions and NPCs have with a bunch of the geometry in the game could generate a lot of complaints from players using the tweaked Storm even if it is possible.

 

It just seems like an overcomplicated solution to what I'm not even sure is actually a problem. With the range nerf, is it all that strange to consider that VGs might not be overpowered if they had both their Pull and Leap by default?

[ZeroPlus]

I'm curious why exactly people are asking for the Pull and the Leap to be switched. Personally, I don't really see much problem in having them both be baseline. After all, there's a Leap and a KB both baseline for Knights. Shadows get their KB and their gap closer by default (Force Speed isn't a Leap, but it's there). Knights even get an ally Leap in addition to their baseline one.

 

Honestly, I don't see a reason why VGs shouldn't have both made available to them by default. In PvP, Pulls are affected by Resolve and it's not like VGs have a load of other utility attached to them compared to other classes. All that Assault VGs used to be able to do effectively was burst DPS effectively from range; now they can't really do that thanks to the range nerfs. Shield VGs have no real great utility over Shadows or VGs; honestly, they have the best passive mitigation, but they have the worst when you factor in every other factor, not to mention the fewest effective CDs and they don't even bring in any special utility to a group (Guardians have the leap and the armor debuff; Shadows have the CC, stealth, and a pull, KB, *and* Force Speed as a gap closer). About the closest VG tanks get is Neural Surge, which is nice but only really serves as an off-target interrupt thanks to the short duration. Tactics gets Hold the Line, which is questionable utility at best, coupled with some slows. Compared to what every other AC gets, I'm not really seeing a reason why it would be all that borked for all VGs to get both. In PvE, it definitely wouldn't be so the only real problem would be PvP and, honestly, I don't really see it being that big of an issue thanks to what everyone else gets (this is, of course, assuming that the CD on an all-VG Storm is increased from 15 to 20 seconds or so to account for VG low grade ranged viability).

 

Just some corrections:

1) Shadows/Assassin do not get a pull as baseline. They get Force Pull if they go into the Tank tree (Darkness/Kinetic Combat).

2) Knights/Warriors do not get a knockback (KB) or "ally leap" as baseline. Guardians/Juggernauts get Force Push (the knockback) at level 26, and Guardian Leap/Intercede (the "ally leap") at level 50.

 

I am one of those that is asking for the "pull" and "leap" to be switched because I believe that VG/PTs do not need both. If you are a DPS VG/PT you want to get into the middle of the fray as soon as possible and that is where the "leap" comes in. If you are a tank VG/PT you want to be able to jump into the pack and build aggro and be able to grab any stragglers that you were unable to build threat on yet.

 

What's more, the "pull" is inheritely a tank ability. It is there, right in the tooltip: "generates a high amount of threat".

 

As such it makes perfect sense to switch the "pull" and the "leap". Give the "leap" to all VG/PTs as we can all use it. Give the "pull" to the tank VG/PTs because they are the ones that need it.

[Kitru]

1) Shadows/Assassin do not get a pull as baseline. They get Force Pull if they go into the Tank tree (Darkness/Kinetic Combat).

 

I was assuming that you would understand, contextually, that I was referring exclusively to tank spec Shadows. I have a Shadow, so I don't really need to be told anything about them.

 

2) Knights/Warriors do not get a knockback (KB) or "ally leap" as baseline. Guardians/Juggernauts get Force Push (the knockback) at level 26, and Guardian Leap/Intercede (the "ally leap") at level 50.

 

Ya, I'm facepalming myself on that one. It was late and I mistyped Knights when I meant to say Guardians (I'm a massive tank player so I generally default to tank AC variants in my brain). Sentinels get other utility, however, to offset the push and ally Leap that Guardians get: droid CC and party wide buffs.

 

What's more, the "pull" is inheritely a tank ability. It is there, right in the tooltip: "generates a high amount of threat".

 

You're operating under a rather flawed interpretation of what "high threat" means within the confines of a Pull. Since it does no damage, the normal interpretation of "high threat" is pointless: 50% more threat on an ability that deals no damage is still nothing. The "high threat" simply refers to the fact that it does generate threat to some extent. Honestly, it's not even all that much.It generates about 2k threat, which, as a DPS, is going to be about as much damage as a single non-crit HiB. I don't really think *anyone* claims that a single non-crit HiB is "high threat" to any appreciable extent. The phrase simply exists because it would be weird to say that it generates threat as if it dealt 2000 damage to the target (which I would actually kind of like to see).

 

Pulls are not inherently tanking tools for the same reason that KBs are not inherently ranged DPS/healing tools. They exist as a discrete useful category of utility abilities. The "high threat" indicator is just a way to have the ability not deal any damage (which seems kind of off, imo, since you're impaling the target with a metal spike before you yank them back towards you) while still having an impact on the aggro table. It's got nothing to do with appropriateness for tanks over DPS.

[Spatology]

So, after this change, what would be the point of playing shield spec.....

[Kitru]

So, after this change, what would be the point of playing shield spec.....

 

Higher survivability. Protecting your allies. You know, the same reason everyone else rolls the tank spec.

[ZeroPlus]

So, after this change, what would be the point of playing shield spec.....

 

Ummm... I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

Shield Spec would still have the "leap". Shield Spec would still get the "pull". Shield Spec would still have everything it has today. Everything.

 

What do you mean "what would be the point of playing shield spec"?

[huehuebrbr]

Didn't read this topic but FYI they can change skills behavior by adding new passive skills, a very simple and easy process, no need to reinvent the game engine or anything.

[grallmate]

Looking more broadly at tank trees and the benefits of them. All full 31 pt Tank specs get: 2 stuns and 2 of leap, KB, pull.

 

In the case of the Guardian: Leap and Push are baseline, the second stun is in tree.

 

In the case of the Shadow: Both stuns and the KB are baseline, Pull is in the tree.

 

In the case of the Vanguard: Both stuns and the pull are baseline. Storm is in the tree.

 

Seems like all the tanking ACs are pretty even there. Now stuns and KB are tools for mitigating damage from trash. KB and pulls are tools for positioning of trash. I see no reason why anyone other than a tank needs a pull. Much less an ability (let alone a pull) that generates 'high threat'.

 

On top of that there are also 2 very distinct arguments that are getting crossed over, lets try and keep them distinct from each other.

 

PvE: DPS VGs have no gap closer because you can't pull an Ops boss but JG get leap and Scoundrels get stealth. Stealth is NOT a PvE gap closer, hence Scoundrels also don't have a PvE gap closer. They are getting a movement speed increase with 1.4 but they have gone 3 major patches without a PvE gap closer, on top of that, Scoundrel has to open from BEHIND the boss and within 4m, even with increased movement speed you should be in DPS position first AND you can get back there quicker after a KB.

 

PvP: DPS VGs have no gap closer because Harpoon is affected by resolve. Stealth CAN be considered a PvP gap closer BUT it doesn't allow you to reengage quickly after a KB (Kitru's definition of a gap closer), it allows you to pick your fights rather than actively close gaps. As such: I'd refer to stealth as a 'gap avoider' rather than a gap closer, not to mention in combat stealth is negated by DoTs unless combined with a self cleanse. It is also hard countered by Stealth Scan just like Leap/Pull is countered by Cover.

 

The ONLY effective gap closers in this game are: Leap, Storm and Force Speed. I'm all for VGs getting a gap closer but I worry that giving them storm as a baseline ability is too similar to JK classes (who are only effective at 4m). I'd rather see something different, or even a new animation so it *FEELS* different. Maybe the VG leaping into the air, shotting the target with the harpoon and pulling himself to the target like that.

 

It also makes ZERO sense for any non-tank spec to have a 'high threat' ability. Harpoon should be moved to the tank tree IMO. Especially if VGs are given a separate gap closer.

[SajPl]

Just some corrections:

1) Shadows/Assassin do not get a pull as baseline. They get Force Pull if they go into the Tank tree (Darkness/Kinetic Combat).

2) Knights/Warriors do not get a knockback (KB) or "ally leap" as baseline. Guardians/Juggernauts get Force Push (the knockback) at level 26, and Guardian Leap/Intercede (the "ally leap") at level 50.

 

Shadows get a gap closer - speed and a utility skill/gap maker - knockback and additionally a pull if tank specced but they have 2 skills (knockback, speed) by default. Knights get 2 similar skills by default : guardians friendly leap and enemy leap, sentinels speed buff (party wide) and enemy leap. If those classes have 2 skills by default why cant the vanguard have 2 skills (pull and leap) by default?

 

PvP: DPS VGs have no gap closer because Harpoon is affected by resolve. Stealth CAN be considered a PvP gap closer BUT it doesn't allow you to reengage quickly after a KB (Kitru's definition of a gap closer), it allows you to pick your fights rather than actively close gaps. As such: I'd refer to stealth as a 'gap avoider' rather than a gap closer, not to mention in combat stealth is negated by DoTs unless combined with a self cleanse. It is also hard countered by Stealth Scan just like Leap/Pull is countered by Cover.

 

It also makes ZERO sense for any non-tank spec to have a 'high threat' ability. Harpoon should be moved to the tank tree IMO. Especially if VGs are given a separate gap closer.

 

Shrap bomb and vital shot (skills essential in the shared tree) are 30 meters so you can open on a boss from distance, if you get knocked back call in a flyvby - it does damage while you can run to the boss.

As far as scrappers go - they get a passive speed buff to close gaps more effectively.

Edited September 17, 2012 by SajPl

[Kitru]

In the case of the Guardian: Leap and Push are baseline, the second stun is in tree.

 

In the case of the Shadow: Both stuns and the KB are baseline, Pull is in the tree.

 

In the case of the Vanguard: Both stuns and the pull are baseline. Storm is in the tree.

 

You're vastly overstating the importance of the comparative tank abilities provided. I'm gonna bet that you're using the utility quantifications that I've posted all over the place for tanks (2 of 3 for K/P/L and 2 stuns or equivalent), but those specifically refer to the outright abilities of tanks overall within 2 separate utility groups. They do nothing to weigh the comparative value and importance of those utility groups against each other.

 

For a tank, the stuns are, honestly, the weakest utility mechanisms provided. The K/P/L triad are, by far, the most powerful tools that the tanks get differentiated access to. The stuns are marginally useful, at best. The only one that is really useful is Neural Surge, since it's an AoE, but it's made marginal by the fact that it lasts only 1 second. Even in PvP, they're not as amazing as they could be thanks to Resolve coupled with long recharge times. Getting access to both stuns by default is going to be way less useful than getting access to a single stun and both triad utilities.

 

Also, you're a bit off on your quantification. Guardians only get a single stun, and it's in their tree (and it's also on a long CD with a short duration and is primary used for burst threat gen as opposed to the stun). Their other "stun" is a stun-equivalent in (Freezing Force). Shadows also get access to their second stun in tree because, without Stasis, Spinning Kick can only be used from Stealth. You're also forgetting about the fact that, although Shadows do no get access to a Leap, they still get a very effective gap closer. As such, VGs get access to their stuns, which are not of stellar importance, and their Pull by default.

 

As to that quantification, I also think it's important for me to add the entire question of survivability CDs to tank utility quantification. VGs get access to 2 (Adrenaline Rush and Reactive Shield; Smoke Grenade is a passive equivalence to make up for not having the acc debuff as opposed to a real CD) and they're not that great. Shadows get 3 (Resilience, Deflection, Battle Readiness), and Guardians get 3 or 4 (Saber Ward, Enure, Warding Call; Focused Defense is an additional CD depending on your spec, willingness to overlook the threat drop, and ability to generate Focus). VGs are definitely behind in that perspective (which is something I seriously think needs looking into).

 

Of course, all of this applies to tanks, not to DPS, which is where the bigger question is; the tanks are all remaining largely the same regardless of what changes occur. I haven't really done any major quantification of how the melee DPS are utility balanced, but my general feeling from playing all of them to 50 is that VGs are still pretty heavily underpowered where their utility is concerned considering they only really get a Pull and a couple mediocre stuns (one of which is only getting worse in 1.4 thanks to the range nerf). Other mDPS get CCs, raid buffs, KBs, and the like. The Pull that VGs get is unique amongst DPS, but it is by no means so amazing that it completely offsets the general low level of utility compared to the others (measured purely on a heuristic basis, of course).

 

PvE: DPS VGs have no gap closer because you can't pull an Ops boss but JG get leap and Scoundrels get stealth. Stealth is NOT a PvE gap closer, hence Scoundrels also don't have a PvE gap closer. They are getting a movement speed increase with 1.4 but they have gone 3 major patches without a PvE gap closer, on top of that, Scoundrel has to open from BEHIND the boss and within 4m, even with increased movement speed you should be in DPS position first AND you can get back there quicker after a KB.

 

Stealth *is* a PvE gap closer. The problem is that it can only do so when you start a fight as such. It's for this explicit reason that Scrappers are getting a gap closer (finally). I'm not sure whether you bring up Scrapper DPS and the state it was in *before* the 1.4 buffs to their mobility as a reason for or against VGs getting Storm by default, but I think it's important to mention that just because one spec had to deal with a problem for a period of time before a problem was rectified doesn't mean that another should have to deal with it for a similar time frame. The developers are *finally* realizing that every melee class needs gap closing utility, even if they do have a bit of ranged viability (which Scrappers thanks to their ranged basic along with other abilities). As such, DPS VGs definitely need one.

 

Maybe the VG leaping into the air, shotting the target with the harpoon and pulling himself to the target like that.

 

I actually think this would be a *way* better animation than the basic Storm animation. Time the damage and interrupt to coincide with the harpoon hit, and you could even make up for the sensible delay that would be involved in having to shoot someone before yanking yourself over (compared to just leaping over to someone) while keeping the same timing and overall effect.

 

It also makes ZERO sense for any non-tank spec to have a 'high threat' ability. Harpoon should be moved to the tank tree IMO. Especially if VGs are given a separate gap closer.

 

As I have been forced to remind people several times, the "high threat" on Harpoon has nothing to do with actual threat generation. Harpoon is a *terrible* threat generator. Anyone that uses it as such doing themselves and their group a *massive* disservice. It generates about as much threat as a single non-basic attack. It's no more "high threat" than any basic attack used by a tank is "high threat". The "high threat" descriptor exists *purely* to inform players that, while it doesn't deal damage, it still generates a specific amount of threat that isn't negligible. Honestly, I'd prefer it if the developers simply outright listed the amount of damage equivalence that Harpoon generates rather than placing the arbitrary, inaccurate, and misleading "high threat" label on it.

[DacRycar]

Kitru, have I mentioned how much I love you? I think I have, but it bears repeating.

 

Thanks to you and everyone else for your continued feedback to this thread. Hopefully a developer or two has seen the posts here and have considered the proposed ideas! Keep discussing!

[Spatology]

30m sticky grenade, 10m incin round, next gcd you are in melee.

[grallmate]

Also, you're a bit off on your quantification. Guardians only get a single stun, and it's in their tree (and it's also on a long CD with a short duration and is primary used for burst threat gen as opposed to the stun). Their other "stun" is a stun-equivalent in (Freezing Force). Shadows also get access to their second stun in tree because, without Stasis, Spinning Kick can only be used from Stealth. You're also forgetting about the fact that, although Shadows do no get access to a Leap, they still get a very effective gap closer. As such, VGs get access to their stuns, which are not of stellar importance, and their Pull by default.

 

As you mentioned earlier (or else where) you have a Shadow and know your class. I have a Guardian and know mine. Guardian tanks get Hilt Strike and Force Stasis (hard stun thanks to Stasis Mastery). I run a 18/23 so don't actually have Hilt Strike in my build, but that beyond the point.

 

Stealth *is* a PvE gap closer. The problem is that it can only do so when you start a fight as such. It's for this explicit reason that Scrappers are getting a gap closer (finally). I'm not sure whether you bring up Scrapper DPS and the state it was in *before* the 1.4 buffs to their mobility as a reason for or against VGs getting Storm by default, but I think it's important to mention that just because one spec had to deal with a problem for a period of time before a problem was rectified doesn't mean that another should have to deal with it for a similar time frame. The developers are *finally* realizing that every melee class needs gap closing utility, even if they do have a bit of ranged viability (which Scrappers thanks to their ranged basic along with other abilities). As such, DPS VGs definitely need one.

 

Stealth could only be considered a PvE gap closer on trash. It also has some pretty big downsides when dealing with mobs and bosses that have stealth detection. Based on your ealier definition that a gap closer helps a melee character get back into combat after being knocked back, stealth does not qualify.

 

As I have been forced to remind people several times, the "high threat" on Harpoon has nothing to do with actual threat generation. Harpoon is a *terrible* threat generator. Anyone that uses it as such doing themselves and their group a *massive* disservice. It generates about as much threat as a single non-basic attack. It's no more "high threat" than any basic attack used by a tank is "high threat". The "high threat" descriptor exists *purely* to inform players that, while it doesn't deal damage, it still generates a specific amount of threat that isn't negligible. Honestly, I'd prefer it if the developers simply outright listed the amount of damage equivalence that Harpoon generates rather than placing the arbitrary, inaccurate, and misleading "high threat" label on it.

 

My point is not the volume of threat it generates. My point is that "high threat" abilities should only be given to tanks. Or possibly to DPS as a deterrent to using it heavily. Tanks are about maximising threat and everyone else is about minimising it. Similarly, Guardian tanks do NOT use Focused Defence as a CD. Tanks that use threat drops are not playing smart. There may be very limited circumstances where they can be used, but it Focus starves and drops threat. Its great for DPS Guardians, but not tanks who already have lower threat gen than the other 2 tanks.

 

For reference, I am ONLY considering Ops boss encounters which aren't over geared with everything I talk about above. I'm also all for VGs getting a gap closer, I just want it to be different from the ones that already exist.

Edited September 18, 2012 by grallmate

[Kitru]

As you mentioned earlier (or else where) you have a Shadow and know your class. I have a Guardian and know mine. Guardian tanks get Hilt Strike and Force Stasis (hard stun thanks to Stasis Mastery). I run a 18/23 so don't actually have Hilt Strike in my build, but that beyond the point.

 

Well hot damn. True 'dat. I always forget about Force Stasis because I think of it as a resource generator as opposed to a stun. My Guardian is my least played tank, so I'm nowhere near as familiar with it as I should be. Even so, it should be mentioned that Guardians still have to take the talent to turn it into a DoT as opposed to a channel, which turns it into a "real" stun as opposed to an ability that stuns while dealing damage.

 

Stealth could only be considered a PvE gap closer on trash. It also has some pretty big downsides when dealing with mobs and bosses that have stealth detection. Based on your ealier definition that a gap closer helps a melee character get back into combat after being knocked back, stealth does not qualify.

 

I'll concur with that definition. Stealth allows you to start off a fight in melee (even with the early stealth detection on bosses, if you run straight there, you won't aggro until you're actually punching the target). Stealth doesn't let you simply stand next to the boss without being paid attention to, but it does let you get right up next to them before the fight starts. It's a gap closer, but only to account for the gap that fights start off with (since you always start fights off with a gap). It isn't a gap closer in the baseline sense because it doesn't allow you to close a gap after a fight has started, which is why both of the stealth classes get speed buff gap closers as opposed to leaps: stealth covers the other part of their needed gap closer utility.

 

My point is not the volume of threat it generates. My point is that "high threat" abilities should only be given to tanks. Or possibly to DPS as a deterrent to using it heavily. Tanks are about maximising threat and everyone else is about minimising it.

 

The issue here is that Harpoon is *not* actually "high threat". You can say that it is because that's what it says but, according to *anyone's* definition of "high threat" *in practice*, Harpoon is not. It simply has that assignation to point out that it does actually generate some degree of threat even though it doesn't actually deal damage. Every other ability in the game that generates threat does so exclusively through dealing or healing damage. Harpoon generates threat but deals no damage. As such it needs some mention to point out that it generates threat but not an ignorable amount.

 

Similarly, Guardian tanks do NOT use Focused Defence as a CD. Tanks that use threat drops are not playing smart. There may be very limited circumstances where they can be used, but it Focus starves and drops threat. Its great for DPS Guardians, but not tanks who already have lower threat gen than the other 2 tanks.

 

I use it with no problem on my Guard tank. I've never had threat gen problems, even after using it and, if you simply use Combat Focus before or soon after using it, you don't really have any Focus problems with it. As I've stated before, I've not entirely mastered Guardian tanking (I still screw up ability use order on occasion), but I know that I've been able to reliable use Focused Defense as a self-heal pretty regularly without any issue. As I said before, how well defined Focused Defense is as a survivability CD depends largely upon personal preference as well as a number of other factors. On tank swap fights, where threat is so ludicrously overinflated by the regular taunting, the threat dropping is a complete non-issue. Even in single target fights or while out of ops, it can still be used if you're actually willing to use your taunts (of which I've never seen a single fight that requires both within the same time frame) or aren't completely overgeared by DPS so that you actually have the massive threat lead over DPS that you're supposed to.

 

It's probably important to mention within the confines of Focused Defense as a survivability CD that I play 31/7/3, so I've got an easier time with Focus (when I actually get my ability use order down correctly), as opposed to 18/23/0, which is the primary reason that I went with it. Focused Defense for the hybrid tank would be harder to use (thanks to the harder time with Focus generation/maintenance), but it would have a greater effect (thanks to Commanding Awe). I'm still pretty confident that if I was using the hybrid spec that I could use Focused Defense effectively, but, once again, as I have said every time I refer to it, Focused Defense varies depending on your personal definition and preference.

[grallmate]

I use it with no problem on my Guard tank. I've never had threat gen problems, even after using it and, if you simply use Combat Focus before or soon after using it, you don't really have any Focus problems with it. As I've stated before, I've not entirely mastered Guardian tanking (I still screw up ability use order on occasion), but I know that I've been able to reliable use Focused Defense as a self-heal pretty regularly without any issue. As I said before, how well defined Focused Defense is as a survivability CD depends largely upon personal preference as well as a number of other factors. On tank swap fights, where threat is so ludicrously overinflated by the regular taunting, the threat dropping is a complete non-issue. Even in single target fights or while out of ops, it can still be used if you're actually willing to use your taunts (of which I've never seen a single fight that requires both within the same time frame) or aren't completely overgeared by DPS so that you actually have the massive threat lead over DPS that you're supposed to.

 

It's probably important to mention within the confines of Focused Defense as a survivability CD that I play 31/7/3, so I've got an easier time with Focus (when I actually get my ability use order down correctly), as opposed to 18/23/0, which is the primary reason that I went with it. Focused Defense for the hybrid tank would be harder to use (thanks to the harder time with Focus generation/maintenance), but it would have a greater effect (thanks to Commanding Awe). I'm still pretty confident that if I was using the hybrid spec that I could use Focused Defense effectively, but, once again, as I have said every time I refer to it, Focused Defense varies depending on your personal definition and preference.

 

This is why I added in my bit at the end. I only consider things when used against Ops bosses that you don't over gear. If you over gear them, the threat is less of an issue, but if you don't it becomes much more relevant in terms of FD. I suppose if you're of the school of thought that spams taunt on CD for threat you could probably also use it, but I don't like doing that, I find it makes me lazy.

[Kitru]

I suppose if you're of the school of thought that spams taunt on CD for threat you could probably also use it, but I don't like doing that, I find it makes me lazy.

 

Well, if you're attempting to maximize threat, then you're being lazy if you *don't* spam taunt on CD (unless there is a condition or mechanism that actively encourages you not to do so, like tank swapping, wherein you're going to have so much threat from the tank swapping that it's redundant anyway). The threat drop isn't even that much of an issue, in my opinion. Unless you're using it really early on in a fight, you're going to have such a massive threat advantage that the threat drop isn't really going to be relevant or even noticeable.

 

The only "real" problem with using Focused Defense as a survivability CD is in its Focus consumption which can be problematic, unless you're willing to actually use Combat Focus specifically to counteract this (and I don't even touch Combat Focus on my Guard tank in the first place unless I screwed up my resource consumption; hybrid might be different, but I'm doubtful).

 

Even so, all of this digression from the point, it still stands that VG tanks are short 1 survivability CD. Smoke Screen isn't a CD as much as it is an ability provided to make up for the lack of a passive accuracy debuff. If it provided a larger effect, I might change my opinion, but it doesn't. Even if you don't count Focused Defense, VGs are short a CD compared to Shadows and Guardians, not to mention that the CDs that they *do* have are actually weaker than the commensurate CDs of the other tanks.

 

Adrenaline Rush heals roughly the same amount as a Shadow's Battle Readiness while not being frontloaded and provides less than a Guardian's Enure (though it is important to remember that Enure is purely temporary hp as opposed to "real" hp so there should be some discrepancy) or Focused Defense. Of all of the tank self-heal CDs, it's the worst.

 

Reactive Shield provides 25% DR which amounts to a ~55% decrease in damage taken for K/E attacks and a ~30% decrease in damage taken for I/E attacks after you factor in your passive DR. This seems quite nice until you compare it to what the other tanks get: Warding Call provides 40% DR, on a longer CD and with a slightly shorter duration, but Guardians *also* get Saber Ward, which provides 50% defense and 25% F/T DR (I'm actually curious how this is managed since the only differences in stats from Saber Ward is the 50% m/r defense; DR isn't changed at all and resistance is left completely alone; unless there is some super secret unique mechanism the developers use to provide DR against a type of attack rather than a type of damage, the Force/Tech DR from Saber Ward is nonexistent). Shadows get Resilience and Deflection, both of which provide the same or better effects specific to attack types (Deflection is a ~70% decrease in m/r damage taken; Resilience is a 100% decrease to F/T). The only comparison is that VGs get a single CD that is, at best, as good as a single CD that that other classes get, even though the other classes get 2: VGs get a single, standard benefit CD that is applicable to all situations while Guardians get 2 standard benefit CDs that are applicable to all situations (albeit on a longer CD to offset the higher benefit by default) and Shadows get 2 high benefit CDs that are each applicable to one of the two categories of attack type in the game.

 

Even discounting Guardian's Focused Defense, VGs are short a CD. As such, I'd say it would make perfect sense to add an extra CD in place of Storm if/when Storm was made into a default ability.

[grallmate]

Well, if you're attempting to maximize threat, then you're being lazy if you *don't* spam taunt on CD (unless there is a condition or mechanism that actively encourages you not to do so, like tank swapping, wherein you're going to have so much threat from the tank swapping that it's redundant anyway). The threat drop isn't even that much of an issue, in my opinion. Unless you're using it really early on in a fight, you're going to have such a massive threat advantage that the threat drop isn't really going to be relevant or even noticeable.

 

The only "real" problem with using Focused Defense as a survivability CD is in its Focus consumption which can be problematic, unless you're willing to actually use Combat Focus specifically to counteract this (and I don't even touch Combat Focus on my Guard tank in the first place unless I screwed up my resource consumption; hybrid might be different, but I'm doubtful).

 

Even so, all of this digression from the point, it still stands that VG tanks are short 1 survivability CD. Smoke Screen isn't a CD as much as it is an ability provided to make up for the lack of a passive accuracy debuff. If it provided a larger effect, I might change my opinion, but it doesn't. Even if you don't count Focused Defense, VGs are short a CD compared to Shadows and Guardians, not to mention that the CDs that they *do* have are actually weaker than the commensurate CDs of the other tanks.

 

Adrenaline Rush heals roughly the same amount as a Shadow's Battle Readiness while not being frontloaded and provides less than a Guardian's Enure (though it is important to remember that Enure is purely temporary hp as opposed to "real" hp so there should be some discrepancy) or Focused Defense. Of all of the tank self-heal CDs, it's the worst.

 

Reactive Shield provides 25% DR which amounts to a ~55% decrease in damage taken for K/E attacks and a ~30% decrease in damage taken for I/E attacks after you factor in your passive DR. This seems quite nice until you compare it to what the other tanks get: Warding Call provides 40% DR, on a longer CD and with a slightly shorter duration, but Guardians *also* get Saber Ward, which provides 50% defense and 25% F/T DR (I'm actually curious how this is managed since the only differences in stats from Saber Ward is the 50% m/r defense; DR isn't changed at all and resistance is left completely alone; unless there is some super secret unique mechanism the developers use to provide DR against a type of attack rather than a type of damage, the Force/Tech DR from Saber Ward is nonexistent). Shadows get Resilience and Deflection, both of which provide the same or better effects specific to attack types (Deflection is a ~70% decrease in m/r damage taken; Resilience is a 100% decrease to F/T). The only comparison is that VGs get a single CD that is, at best, as good as a single CD that that other classes get, even though the other classes get 2: VGs get a single, standard benefit CD that is applicable to all situations while Guardians get 2 standard benefit CDs that are applicable to all situations (albeit on a longer CD to offset the higher benefit by default) and Shadows get 2 high benefit CDs that are each applicable to one of the two categories of attack type in the game.

 

Even discounting Guardian's Focused Defense, VGs are short a CD. As such, I'd say it would make perfect sense to add an extra CD in place of Storm if/when Storm was made into a default ability.

 

Given that the threat drop from FD is percentage based, it is never irrelevant. The later in the fight you use it the more threat it will drop. The more you are hit, the more it will drop. If you have a sufficiently large threat lead you can use it, but I don't consider it 'safe' to ever do so. Hybrid Guardian's also need to use Combat Focus pretty regularly to maintain their 'rotation'. That build is very tough on Focus as is.

 

The reason I don't use taunts as part of my normal rotation is to help me maximise my threat for the situations were I can't use taunt. Bosses with tank swap mechanics or threat drops. Its the opposite of being lazy, my OT uses taunts to build threat and we spent the first half dozen attempts of SC/FB HM wiping because he couldn't hold threat without taunting, he's since learned not to rely on it.

 

As to how many bosses don't require a tank swap or have a threat drop, I can think of 4: Garhj, Soa, Karagga and Fabricator (non-active tank won't be taunting anyway). You can get away with not tank swapping on Jarg/Sorno as well. One's that require a tank swap or have threat drops include: Toth/Zorn, Firebrand/Stormcaller, Foreman Crusher, Annihilation Droid, Vorgath and Kephess. On most of these you can chuck in a few taunts to build threat but relying on it can give you issues. Crusher you know when the drop is coming and you know when some of the Annihilation Droid ones are coming but you don't have a lot of notice.

 

What that comes down to is: I prefer not to rely on abusing a mechanic because you can't always abuse it. If I can tank fine without needing to pro actively taunt, then why do it?

 

In terms of the CDs, Saber Ward and Deflection both increase Defence rating. They can both negate all or none of the damage thanks to RNG. Reactive Shield and Warding call are excellent CDs because they always apply their effects. Guardian's are also the only class that gets one of their CDs from the tanking tree. Both Assassin ones are base CDs with Force Shroud bring improved in the tree. Both VG ones are base abilities, regardless of how average Adrenalin Rush is.

 

It is important to remember that Saber Ward, Deflection and Smoke Grenade all become more useful the more Defence rating you have. Given that many VGs dump Defence rating in favour of shield/absorb, the effectiveness of Smoke grenade is reduced. It is also important to note: if a Guardian or Shadow has 50% Defence rating before popping Saber Ward/Deflection, they will end up with 100% M/R defence and take very little damage.

 

Ultimately though, this has gotten a little side tracked.

 

Giving VGs a gap closer: yes.

Making Storm a baseline ability: no because it's too similar to Force Leap. Make it different.

[THorsblood]

The Great wall's of text lol. Oh and this is also in the Powertech forums and oddly the merc forums...just fyi

[bliapis]

You are missing the point here guys. BW changed the Assault spec in that way to change (and cripple it ofcourse aswell).

 

Do you think that BW isnt aware whats happening with changing the range of said abilities?

 

BW thought it was OP and nerf it, thats all end of story.

[DacRycar]

Do you think that BW isnt aware whats happening with changing the range of said abilities?

 

Yes?

 

I don't give BioWare the benefit of the doubt anymore. Their track record is shoddy right now.