The hard truth for DPS Sages

[SoonerJBD]

With the 1.4 changes as announced, it is now clear that the developers do not want Sages to do the same level of damage as Sentinels and Gunslingers. I can only surmise that the fact that we have a heal button, in their minds, means we must sacrifice some DPS. They have previously stated the DPS classes would all be within 5 percent of each other. We know from SimC and our own parses that we are more like 15 or 20 percent behind the better DPS classes in PvE. The balance spec is way behind even the Shadow balance spec. So what do we get in 1.4? A free self-heal. It will be nice to have from a survivability standpoint, but it does nothing to close the gap in pure DPS that exists between Sages and other DPS classes. It's now clear that this is "working as intended." I suppose our value in PvE content is that we can provide serviceable DPS while taking pressure off healers by using our bubble and self-healing on occasion.

[Khevar]

This SimC parse:

http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

Shows the TK spec at 8% below the top sniper spec. That's a far cry from 15-20%. Notwithstanding the fact that

 

a) All content in the game can be facerolled by that level of dps

and

b) Many guilds (ours included) use sage dps in HM EC runs and they do fine.

 

I don't mean to take away from the fact that the Sage dps needs to be brought within the 5% promised by BW, but I don't think the situation is as dire as you're presenting it.

[SoonerJBD]

You can certainly complete all the content as a DPS Sage. I just find it insulting that we are clearly not within the 5 percent promised and the devs apparently don't care. And we are further behind other specs.

 

I'm not much of a PvPer, but I think the gripe there is even more legitimate.

[Garell]

The numbers people are quoting are theoretical values with the assumption of a completely Patchwerk style encounter. However, both the Balance and the Hybrid spec are effected very little with movement enducing fights. So theoretically yes, we may be behind the pure dps classes etc, but on live encounters the gap is much much smaller.

[SoonerJBD]

No, it isn't. The Sims can be modified to factor in heavy movement, and we still come in bottom of the list. Even in heavy movement fights, balance is no better than TK. It's just easier to do the rotation.

[eventidephoenix]

The numbers people are quoting are theoretical values with the assumption of a completely Patchwerk style encounter. However, both the Balance and the Hybrid spec are effected very little with movement enducing fights. So theoretically yes, we may be behind the pure dps classes etc, but on live encounters the gap is much much smaller.

 

On live encounters the gap is larger... I can vouch for this myself...

 

I have done all 3 specs for Sages, and my Gunslinger on dirty fighting gaps about 10% difference... Before you question my abilities with the Sage or say "its just because you suck with your sage", I would challenge you to come dps with me on any Ops with your Sage on a similar spec.

[SoonerJBD]

This SimC parse:

http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

Shows the TK spec at 8% below the top sniper spec. That's a far cry from 15-20%. Notwithstanding the fact that

 

a) All content in the game can be facerolled by that level of dps

and

b) Many guilds (ours included) use sage dps in HM EC runs and they do fine.

 

I don't mean to take away from the fact that the Sage dps needs to be brought within the 5% promised by BW, but I don't think the situation is as dire as you're presenting it.

 

Also, worth mentioning that the profiles for BiS are much worse. Snipers are 12 percent ahead of Sage/Sorcerer. I suspect when all the DPS classes get added into the profile, we might be even further behind some of them.

 

http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

[Karasuko]

SImcraft takes into account double dotting and the benefits you can derive from it?

If not then its a nice gauge of what you could do but not the bible of dps you make it out to be

[eventidephoenix]

In sum the conclusion remains the same:

 

Is Sage DPS is viable? Yes

Sage DPS allows you to clear end game content? Yes

 

However

 

Sage DPS is a lot less competitive than other class DPS. If I had a choice, Sage DPS will always be the last in my raid team.

 

There's no point debating this any further unless Bioware finally turns around and decides "hmm classes should not have a 10%+ gap in terms of DPS if we even put DPS as an option out there in the first place! How could our development team lack so much foresight and common sense in such a design! Damn time to fix things!"

[Karasuko]

I

There's no point debating this any further unless Bioware finally turns around and decides "hmm classes should not have a 10%+ gap in terms of DPS if we even put DPS as an option out there in the first place! How could our development team lack so much foresight and common sense in such a design! Damn time to fix things!"

 

Proof to show that sorcs are operating 10% behind ALL other specs?

[Ewgal]

When I tried Sorc/Sage versus Merc/Comm on Simc with heavy move and good settings Sorc/Sage seemed ahead last time I tried. Gunslingers can do great dps on static targets, but the more movement the worse they end up doing, also on some bosses you need AOE and that is an area where Sages/Sorc are good. Edited September 13, 2012 by Ewgal

[SoonerJBD]

Once again, it's not a question of whether we are viable as a DPS class. It's that we are not within the 5 percent of other DPS classes that Bioware promised. I mean, 12 percent? That's ridiculous.

[Garell]

You all ***** and moan too much. I'm having no trouble at all holding above 1600 on all fights in EC HM as hybrid.

 

Yes slingers may have a theoretical max of 2k in a patchwerk style sim, but i've yet to see any posts anywhere near to that on a live encounter. Why is it a problem that we're theoretically 12% behind the top sim? They're pure dps classes and we're a hybrid class and therefore it would not make sense to be as close as 5% to them.

 

The utility that we get as a hybrid is more than worth it.

 

Bioware......don't change a *********** thing.

[SoonerJBD]

That line of thought may work for PvP, although I imagine many people would disagree with you. But in PvE encounters, our "utility" is pretty much worthless. You can't stun or force lift raid bosses. Bioware set a 5 percent target, not me. I am asking why they are failing to meet their own target.

[eventidephoenix]

Proof to show that sorcs are operating 10% behind ALL other specs?

 

as I've said come DPS with me... I don't have numbers as I've retired my Sage as a DPS, in part because my raid needs a healer, in part because my gunslinger is outputting something it can't. And I wouldn't say all. But behind a number enough so much so I cannot appreciate them as a DPS anymore.

 

I'd put up parse numbers on my gunslinger for my EC HM fight. Would love you to put up your numbers as a sorc DPS. Will dump my TORPARSE results here if anyone else on a sorc DPS would be willing to do so...

 

and once again I stress that it is NOT that Sage DPS-es are not viable, they're just not competitive... If you're comfortable being in your raid with it so be it. As a raid leader I wouldn't. That's all.

Edited September 14, 2012 by eventidephoenix

[eventidephoenix]

Why is it a problem that we're theoretically 12% behind the top sim? They're pure dps classes and we're a hybrid class and therefore it would not make sense to be as close as 5% to them.

 

And once again I hate this argument. I would refer you to the thread on the main class forums on a discussion following this. It makes no sense that a pure DPS class must do more DPS than non "pure" dps classes.

 

And utility is pointless in ops given most bosses have boss immunity. If utility in the sense of pulling off emergency heals, then look to change your healers in your ops team. I'm quite sure they must suck. And doing so means you further compromise DPS.

[Karasuko]

as I've said come DPS with me... I don't have numbers as I've retired my Sage as a DPS, in part because my raid needs a healer, in part because my gunslinger is outputting something it can't. And I wouldn't say all. But behind a number enough so much so I cannot appreciate them as a DPS anymore.

 

I'd put up parse numbers on my gunslinger for my EC HM fight. Would love you to put up your numbers as a sorc DPS. Will dump my TORPARSE results here if anyone else on a sorc DPS would be willing to do so...

 

and once again I stress that it is NOT that Sage DPS-es are not viable, they're just not competitive... If you're comfortable being in your raid with it so be it. As a raid leader I wouldn't. That's all.

 

Sorry but I find this really hard to swallow. Using my wifes hybrid sorc as an example she puts out the numbers.

She is consistantly in the top 2 of her guild in HM EC and is normally neck and neck with their lethality sniper,Pyro PT and anni mara. She is not what I consider an amazing player but she does have great gear.

 

On a single target shes second

On 2 targets shes top by a mile.

On kephess shes 2nd..(with the sniper doing better with RNG crits)

[SoonerJBD]

Sorry but I find this really hard to swallow. Using my wifes hybrid sorc as an example she puts out the numbers.

She is consistantly in the top 2 of her guild in HM EC and is normally neck and neck with their lethality sniper,Pyro PT and anni mara. She is not what I consider an amazing player but she does have great gear.

 

On a single target shes second

On 2 targets shes top by a mile.

On kephess shes 2nd..(with the sniper doing better with RNG crits)

 

I'm calling bull on this. The hybrid build is third among sage/sorcerer builds. It's not anywhere close to what a TK/Lightning build can put out, let alone some of the better specs for other classes. If your wife is topping the charts in her guild, her guild stinks.

[Kuvox]

Sorry but I find this really hard to swallow. Using my wifes hybrid sorc as an example she puts out the numbers.

She is consistantly in the top 2 of her guild in HM EC and is normally neck and neck with their lethality sniper,Pyro PT and anni mara. She is not what I consider an amazing player but she does have great gear.

 

On a single target shes second

On 2 targets shes top by a mile.

On kephess shes 2nd..(with the sniper doing better with RNG crits)

 

All this means is that your wife is a good player and that the others in her guild are probably only OK.

 

We have an amazing Sage who only does PVE and he puts out numbers that actually come close to SimC numbers but he still can't beat our Sentinels' and Gunslingers' DPS (who are also very good).

 

And, as others have mentioned, Sorc/Sage DPS is absolutely viable in PVE situations. However, we only started allowing our Sages to do HM EC once our Sentinels, Gunslingers, and Vanguards were highly geared. We're going to do the same thing with the new Terror ops simply because we actually want to beat it fast. We're putting in our gunslingers, sentinels, and vanguard DPS first; Sages will be allowed after Terror is on farm mode.

[Khevar]

I'm calling bull on this. The hybrid build is third among sage/sorcerer builds. It's not anywhere close to what a TK/Lightning build can put out, let alone some of the better specs for other classes. If your wife is topping the charts in her guild, her guild stinks.

The hybrid build may be #3 among the SimC parses, but it is also the easiest to nail a perfect rotation. A perfect TK rotation will get you more dps, but miss a proc and you just gimped yourself. And if you have to move (60%/20% T&Z) the hybrid has 2 high powered DoTs going and can interrupt the TK throw and pick up again (no cooldown) -- minimal dps downtime.

 

On an ops dummy, my friend who is TK-spec beats my hybrid-spec every time. But in Denova, I beat him in parses on actual fights.

[SoonerJBD]

The hybrid build certainly isn't better than full balance/madness for heavy movement or multiple dotting, and the rotation is very simple. And it is well ahead of the hybrid build as well. I've run all three specs in raids and on ops dummies and tracked the parses. There is no way a sorcerer running a hybrid build would be out DPSing the better specs out there unless the people running them were well under the sorcerer's gear level and/or incompetent at their jobs. It's just that simple.

 

Also worth mentioning that multi-dotting is really only useful against trash in most raids, and especially Denova. Who cares if you multi-dot Trandoshan Rangers? You aren't multi-dotting on Toth and Zorn or Firebrand and Stormcaller if you know what you are doing, and there isn't much to multi-dot against Kephess. Those are the raids where DPS is important. Trash doesn't enrage.

[enoax]

Just thought I'd point out that double dotting is just as advantageous for TK/lightening. In addition to the dps increase of casting our 2nd highest DPET ability you'll get more PP procs.

 

No reason not to be dotting both sc/fb. That's just too easy to do. Even on the shield phase.. that's 4-5 s to run into the dome giving you enough time to dot all three on the way to the dome. With TK you have the force regen to do it... with balance especially if you're curring/doing the script you may have force issues during last phase. You'll get a PP proc every internal CD with three mobs dotted. And you'll Turb at least two of those mobs anyways. On T/Z it's a bit tricky to dot both because of fearful.. but possible as long as your tanks are extremely predictible.

 

Movement should really have only a minimum effect on your dps, at least after you learn the encounters. NiPil is a bit unpredictible and probably the worse fight for TK/ any ranged really. The effect of movement for gunslingers (dirty fighting > SS) is probably same/better as sage. I have no experience with commandos other than the observation they are hindered a bit more than sage if they are on the ground during SC/FB. There is no jousting for melee except maybe during leap down phase on kephess in HM EC and boulder phase of Z/T so movement really has minimal effect for them. For the most part they can dance around the circles etc while still maintaining dps.

[SoonerJBD]

I don't understand why anyone thinks full balance has force issues, It's actually way better force-wise than TK. If you are doing your rotation right (not clipping dots and not throwing lots of bubbles), the rotation is force neutral. That's not the case for TK. The SimC data backs this up. Only way you run out of force in full balance is by clipping your dots and throwing project and force armor or self heals too much.

[enoax]

There are two fights you can have force issues on with balance:

- Sc/fb if you are on the ground moving for every reticle and dome, casting a cure or a project everytime you move, religiously keeping both dots on both bosses, dotting all 3 adds, +/- occasional bubble/ heal.

- transduchan add phase on kephess. Casting FiB and forcequake (+/- a bubble as invariably ill get agro) will destroy your mana pool.

- after an in-combat rez.

 

With Tk I have never had a force issue in the above situations. While on 95% of fights you won't have issues with force using balance, saying it has superior regen to Tk is not true.

[SoonerJBD]

Except the actual rotation itself is force neutral. That isn't the case for TK.