Merc/Commando design intent request for BW. (DPS)

[Soljin]

Hello,

 

This is directed @ Bioware class designers to please provide a basic outline of the "Vision" of how Merc/Commando DPS Spec's should operate in PvP.

 

Example: Ranged damage dealer turret with low mobility but high damage.

 

Example 2: Ranged damage dealer with low mobility and high defensive capabilities.

 

Example 3: Ranged damage dealer with high mobility and ability to keep enemies at bay.

 

Example 4: Ranged damage dealer with low utility but effective off heals.

 

Basically I wish to know what the design goal is...It seems clear whatever it is we are no where near it ATM. However if this information were to be given to the community some might still hold out hope for when the AC reaches its intended design goal, and not completely abandon their Merc/Commando.

 

At some point the level cap may be raised and many have "Shelved" their Merc/Commando indefinately...Myself included. The recent "Balance" info released for many actually affirmed that Merc/Commando DPS may not be meant for PvP at all. Consider that the changes forced them into melee range to apply their control abilities, and in majority case a fast trip to the cloner. Mercs have low utility, and low defenses and cannot survive in melee range being that most melee have the same or more control abilities.

 

For me personally the recent "balance" information released for Merc/Commando have further confused the intended role of our AC. If you feel the same way please post so we hopefully get some clarification. Thanks.

 

PS this is the second request I have put up...the old request kind of went off topic so I created a new thread. Everyone please post your question in relation to this topic but please stay on topic in asking Merc/Commando design questions.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Soljin

[Phrase]

It's pretty clear that we're meant to be ranged casting dps. What isn't clear is why we aren't being given the tools that a casting class needs in order to be successful; by that I mean:

 

1) A solid set-up skill. We have a 30m stun and a 30m mezz, both of which fill this role nicely. The problem is that they rely on the Resolve system to work properly, which means Mercs aren't in complete control as to when they can set-up and apply their burst. Sure, some of the top-end Mercs have gotten really good a learning the most solid positions on the WZ maps, and can therefore cast more effectively, but this is more of a work-around than a design intent imo. Now in 1.4 we get our low CD stun nerfed to 10m which makes it nearly useless as anything more than an "oh ****" button. Our mezz is still nice, but the 2 minute "instant" cd makes it less than ideal as a solid set-up skill. Why we don't have a 15-20m root, I'll never know (in fact, I'd take that over the interrupt). So it seems that we (along with sorc/ sage) get the short end of the stick on the "stunwars" nerf, yay!

 

2) A Resolve-free escape. We have 1 knockback for all, while Arsenal gains the Afterburners knockback, and Pyro gets the RNG snare. None of these are very effective means of gaining range as they are either proc-based or Resolve dependent. In other words, there is no way for a Merc to get away 100% of the time on demand. Sure, some Mercs run with teams with Sorcs who will Intercede, or maybe they get peels, taunts and guards to help them out, but most teams (esp. pugs) won't waste those talents keeping a dps Merc alive.

 

With that in mind, ALL Merc ACs need a way to gain range without being depenedent on the Resolve condition of their opponent. Anyone who doesn't understand this, doesn't understand casting classes. WoW has Blink for their mages, Aion has Retreating Slash for Rangers and Sorcerers have Twisiting Time, SWG had instant snares via traps that could be dropped on the run for Bounty Hunters; in short, every game I've played with a casting/ ranged class has a way for that class to INSTANTLY gain range that wouldn't affect the Resolve system under SWTOR's ruleset. The Afterburners change was meant to address this issue, but I feel it was the wrong move to make. It doesn't effectively allow a Merc to gain range.

 

As it stands now, in 1.4 the BG/ Arsenal hybrid will most likely be the spec of choice for PvP, since it will offer the most tools to play a casting class effectively: Interrupt immmunity, a reliable snare, a root,and massive survivabiility via heals. Arsenal will most likely become a PvE only spec since they got the interrupt everyone seems to think we needed. While Pyros will continue to be the red-headed step brother of the PT Pyro.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Phrase

[Soljin]

Before the recent Info release I would have agreed Merc was a ranged dmg AC that was meant to kite and use the basic ranged tactics......

 

But since the listed changes I wonder if thats not what the designers think at all.....If not why would they force us to go into melee prior to using a root? This clearly indicates the designers feel we should have to go into melee to counter melee attackers....Hence we should apperently be capable of withstanding short melee encounters...But Mercs cannot. Heavy armor and a weak instant heal that hits for 1500 hp and consumes TL aint gonna do it.

 

So this would lend to the Idea that they infact are heading in a different direction then Ranged DPS kiter....

 

This is why I used several different concept examples.... I am truely confused at how Bioware thinks Merc DPS should be played....

 

Sure everyone thinks Merc DPS is a ranged kite class.....But its not being designed to do that...that much is clear.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Soljin

[Phrase]

But since the listed changes I wonder if thats not what the designers think at all.....If not why would they force us to go into melee prior to using a root? This clearly indicates the designers feel we should have to go into melee to counter melee attackers....

 

I honestly think this was the least resource intensive way they could manage to add a way to escape that isn't dependent on the Resolve of an attacker, which also doesn't add Resolve itself. Still, I think it falls short of what we need.

 

I agree that increasingly I'm having a hard time understanding whether we're meant to be a pure ranged class or what.

[Nightkin]

The closest thing this class resembles is the Magus from Warhammer Online, designed by the same pvp dev team and they never got that out of the sinkhole either. A long range dps with no ranged slow and no decent melee range defence either. Even had a melee ranged attack that was pretty pointless and a melee range root that, again was pretty pointless cause you were dead by the time you got it off (sound familiar?).

 

This is the feeling i get when i play merc today. Its the same old story all over again and we are literally wasting our time.

[Soljin]

Im really hoping this request will be forwarded on to the PvP class Dev's...Someone please pass this on. Silence the masses by just touching down on how Merc DPS is supposed to perform..What is their role, Are we supposed to be able to survive melee encounters? are we supposed to kite and avoid melee? I just dont know anymore and it seems other mercs dont understand the direction either with the new changes anounced. Edited September 10, 2012 by Soljin

[Xenotoxic]

Did you notice that we have 1-2 less kiting tools than the other ranged classes? I doubt that our intended design is to face-tank melee because our casts are easily interrupted.

 

Repost this in the suggestion area as you are suggesting clarification on the Mercenary / Commando 's intended design.

 

I also have my own post in there, suggesting different ideas and alternatives to the Afterburners / Concussive Force changes.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5138662#post5138662

 

Please add your suggestions and opinions to the thread to help increase its visibility!

[Demonsong]

Hello,

This is directed @ Bioware class designers to please provide a basic outline of the "Vision" of how Merc/Commando DPS Spec's should operate in PvP.

 

I can tell you what Biowares vision is for this class an every other class that is not a Marauder is. You are food to feed the all powerful Marauder. You are to have no survivability in melee combat and you are to have no way to stop the all powerful Marauder from getting into melee combat with you. Just except your place in the food chain. You will be happier going in to PVP knowing you suck and excepting your lot in life (as food). False hope will only end in depression.

[Macroecon]

I think the problem with the Merc dps design is that it IS overpowered versus melee dps classes when both are piloted by weak players. Weak melee dps players can't keep their targets within 4 meter range and often can't keep them within their frontal arc. So they lose a lot of GCDs simply trying to reacquire their target. In contrast a weak Merc dps (or really any ranged dps), has a much easier time managing his location/facing so he can attack his target. This factor alone accounts for most of the reason why weak players do better with ranged dps.

 

The problem is that once you get to higher skill players, it is clear that the Merc dps drops to the bottom of the barrel. The higher skill players know how to use interrupts and they know how to use their defensive abilities. And the Merc dps has the lowest number of defensive abilities of any subclass in the game.

 

And so when BW looks at their in game data collection, they find that Merc dps is in fact higher than that of other subclasses. Firstly because noob Merc dps do better than noob melee dps. And secondly because the melee dps classes have proportionally so many more noob players - most new players having been taught/told to avoid Merc dps. Basically it is a failing of BW's design parameters that they use meta averages to drive class rebalancing rather than to assume best practices for each subclass. The effect of BW's design practices is seen in the composition of teams in ranked warzones - no one uses Merc dps.

 

Lastly I will make one other comment about the philosophy of using damage/protection/healing output as a measure of class productivity. Certain subclasses in the game contribute in ways that are outside the measurement parameters of BW's ingame stat collection. As players, we call these methods of contributing to a team's success, "utility". For example Assassins have a lot of utility since they can pull enemies into flame pits in Huttball. They can exit combat when they are the last defender of a node and extend the defense of that node until reinforcements can arrive via respawn. These benefits are not accounted for in BW's damage/healing/protection stat collection. Yet they are real benefits, and in many cases far more important than another 5% increase in dps. And which class has the lowest utility in ToR? Merc dps. So the very concept of using damage output as a metric for subclass productivity is flawed because it fails to capture much of the real contribution other subclasses make.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Macroecon

[ArchangelLBC]

As a commando brother of you guys I would like to echo the sentiments of this thread, because honestly I don't think BW understands what they want the class to do. At least in PVP. People have made suggestions again and again, myself included, with not a response from BW. The only time I've EVER seen a dev response to our concerns was after the 1.2 nerf to Grav Round/Tracer saying that people had been able to be 80% effective just spamming one ability. They had moved our damage around to fix this and then "fixed" Demo Round/HSM, and as far as I can tell it hasn't been good in PVP since (though they have buffed our damage since in other areas).

 

 

Along with Sorcs/Sages there is no larger difference in this game between how a class performs in PVE and how it performs in PVP, and all the utility changes they make to the class just make it all the more confusing as to what we're supposed to be.

 

At this point I think they just don't know what they want the class to do, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they just didn't care. They have F2P to get ready, new content to get out "soon", and all the other classes to make bad in PVP. They probably figure that the Merc/Commando problem will eventually fix itself by all the players of the class going somewhere else.

 

If I had any doubt before, the latest changes just confirm that BW has no clue how the class plays in PVP and they honestly are out of damns to give.

[Nightkin]

 

If I had any doubt before, the latest changes just confirm that BW has no clue how the class plays in PVP and they honestly are out of damns to give.

Amen to that brother

[Soljin]

All due respect to everyone in here but please keep this on topic and try to keep the frustration posts to a minimum. I am also frustrrated but if we truely want a response we need to keep these types of threads visible and constructive. Thanks.

[Soljin]

/bump for response.

[Phasersablaze]

I think it's funny how everyone here believes someone in bioware actually has a vision for the mercenary class. Have you considered the thought that the people designing this game don't play it enough to make intelligent decisions?

 

They didn't change the KB on rocket-punch to a root because they have a different vision for the class. They did it because they are completely ignorant and incompetent.

[Surbatu]

Hello,

 

This is directed @ Bioware class designers to please provide a basic outline of the "Vision" of how Merc/Commando DPS Spec's should operate in PvP.

 

Example: Ranged damage dealer turret with low mobility but high damage.

cookie

 

yes, its a sweet cookie for the forceusers

[Soljin]

I can see this is going nowhere just like all the other threads...Thanks Bioware for ignoring the Merc community.

[Demonsong]

I think it's funny how everyone here believes someone in bioware actually has a vision for the mercenary class. Have you considered the thought that the people designing this game don't play it enough to make intelligent decisions?

 

They didn't change the KB on rocket-punch to a root because they have a different vision for the class. They did it because they are completely ignorant and incompetent.

 

I am quoting this simply because it is cool and correct.

 

Nice Job!