Revan should be in jail.

[Setsugetsuka]

This will probably be my only comment in this topic, as I've never played KOTOR, but..

 

It is the Jedi Orders job to defend the Republic and they failed to do that.

As far as I know, the Jedi Order never had a job to defend the Republic, they were never obliged to defend it to the death, they weren't an army. :/

[EnsignSorrow]

Why this insistence on comparing him to Vader? this is about Revan and whether or not he should have answered for his crimes, don't forget, the main difference is, Vader DID pay for his actions, he spent the rest of his life in a suit, from which he could never escape, at the same time he was forced to do Palpatine's bidding, eventually he fully paid for his crimes by sacrificing himself to save his son and return balance to the force itself.

 

I absolutely agree.

[Beniboybling]

Why this insistence on comparing him to Vader? this is about Revan and whether or not he should have answered for his crimes, don't forget, the main difference is, Vader DID pay for his actions, he spent the rest of his life in a suit, from which he could never escape, at the same time he was forced to do Palpatine's bidding, eventually he fully paid for his crimes by sacrificing himself to save his son and return balance to the force itself.

You forget, Revan was imprisoned for hundreds of years by the emperor, all the while having his mind constantly assaulted by one of the most powerful sith in the galaxy - i think that's punishment enough. We also have to consider why Revan fell to the dark side, personally I don't think we should blame him - the emperor turned him to the darkside, its even possible that Revan was actually a slave to him all his time as sith (possibly almost dying and losing his memory freed his mind)

 

If we look at it this way Revan was actually a heroic character, he didn't turn on the republic intentionally but was forced to, and he went to fight the mandalorian wars with good intentions. The fact that after his memory was wiped he returned to the light shows that actually he was a good person - he was just twisted by the emperor.

[Rikalonius]

1. Revan was not an 'unauthorized vigilante' as you put it. He did not have the backing of the jedi high council, but remember that the council is NOT the government of the republic. Revan was a general of the republic and presumably fully sanctioned by the senate. Its arguable that the jedi who chose to remain neutral while the mandalorians were slaughtering the people of the republic are traitors. And they are definitely cowards. If you remember the first conversation with Atris in her academy (kotor 2), you'll know that the issue was far from black and white.

 

2. Vitiate is literally the most powerful being in the galaxy, he could corrupt anyone. If Revan was 'weak willed', he would never have defied the council in the first place.

 

3. Bastila is not a criminal for bringing Revan to the Jedi. It is an accepted fact that the jedi have a certain level of autonomy as the galaxy's peacekeepers, they need it in order to function. Revan is one of their own, therefore it was understood that he would be tried as a jedi. Anyway what 'federal prison' could hold him?

 

4. He wasn't 'remade' into a jedi, he was always a jedi, thats the whole point of the story. Redemption and all that. You may not think of him as a hero, since he was just cleaning up his own mess, but he's no brainless darth maul. He's more like Vader, except less successful at killing the emperor.

 

5. The thread title is 'Revan should be in jail', he served 300 years in solitary confinement. Not good enough for you?

 

Then again, who knows how Revan's story finally ends after he disappears from the foundry. Vitiate certainly never succeeded in consuming the galaxy, so it stands to reason someone must have stopped him or killed him. I mean, he could have died of extreme old age, but that seems lame and unlikely. My money is on Revan to finally end that old ****er. Perhaps we will see this in an expansion or book in future. I think it would be awesome for there to be a new trilogy centered on Revan, too bad GL would never allow that.

 

I agree with your points. I would add, and argue that Bastilla was not working autonously but was completing her mission. You begin KOTOR memory wiped on her ship (as you later find out). You were likely being returned to Dantooine when that ship was intercepted. There may have even been some unnamed Jedi Counselor onboard who was killed in the fighting that responsible for your mind alteration. Malak caught up to Bastilla's ship before it could return. After Revan (the player) rescues her on Taris, without his memory or Jedi abilities no less, she convinces him that the best course of action is go where she had originally planned to take her anyway.

 

Vrook and Vander were waiting there to receive you and complete the transformation, after all, that was the location of one of the Star Forge maps that you would need to "find" in order to retrace your steps, and lead the Republic to your super weapon.

 

I hate this whole thing about the Sith Empire though. The story got way out of hand because of KOTOR II. It was better when Revan had just been corrupted by the Infinite Empire's technology.

[matijerzykom]

I hate this whole thing about the Sith Empire though. The story got way out of hand because of KOTOR II. It was better when Revan had just been corrupted by the Infinite Empire's technology.

 

Correction: It would be far better if Kotor 3 was developed exept for Tor which pretend to be "Kotor 3,4,5,6,7".

Observation: Tsl made Revan one of greatest Sw character, so it is good for me.

Query: Would you agree with me meatbag?

[Newyankalt]

Correction: It would be far better if Kotor 3 was developed exept for Tor which pretend to be "Kotor 3,4,5,6,7".

Observation: Tsl made Revan one of greatest Sw character, so it is good for me.

Query: Would you agree with me meatbag?

 

Lol All Meatbags must be terminated.

[Aurbere]

No, the Jedi Order was not being bullied. They were being challenged. They refused the challenge and watched as the bully savagely beat up one kid after another. It is the Jedi Orders job to defend the Republic and they failed to do that. Guardians of Peace and Justice, or sanctimonious ritualists?

 

The Mandalorians wanted to fight the jedi. The Council believed that if they maintained a peaceful stance, the Mandalorians would give up their crusade because they didn't get the challenge they wanted. Revan provided the challenge they wanted, against the Council's wishes.

 

These are logical reasons for the Councils peaceful stance during the war.

1. Stated above

2. They saw something far more dangerous lurking out there and wanted to preserve the Order in preparation for the coming storm

3. War with the Mandalorians could drive many Jedi to the Dark Side

4. all of the above.

 

Number 4 is the most likely option, imo.

[BrandonSM]

3. War with the Mandalorians could drive many Jedi to the Dark Side

 

Thats actually the real main reason. They knew somethign was lurking in the Dark and if allot fo Jedi had gone dark then there wont be any Order to protect the Republic.

[Aurbere]

Thats actually the real main reason. They knew somethign was lurking in the Dark and if allot fo Jedi had gone dark then there wont be any Order to protect the Republic.

 

And the Jedi had to protect their numbers, because they are the only ones who could really fight the coming darkness.

 

And they were right. They knew something was coming and Revan ran headlong into it, thinking he could defeat it alone. Which lead to a war that led to even more loss of life.

[Tuscad]

And the Jedi had to protect their numbers, because they are the only ones who could really fight the coming darkness.

 

And they were right. They knew something was coming and Revan ran headlong into it, thinking he could defeat it alone. Which lead to a war that led to even more loss of life.

 

That was so stupid, running in with just your best friend to fight an unknown threat, it probably would have turned out the same if he had brought his entire army because the Emperor could Mind Screw anybody but still that was bad tactics right there.

[Aurbere]

That was so stupid, running in with just your best friend to fight an unknown threat, it probably would have turned out the same if he had brought his entire army because the Emperor could Mind Screw anybody but still that was bad tactics right there.

 

And if Revan brought the Entire Republic to bear, the Emperor could have likely ended the Republic right there. Revan was foolish to think he could defeat the darkness when the Jedi Council was, for lack of a better work, scared.

[Tuscad]

And if Revan brought the Entire Republic to bear, the Emperor could have likely ended the Republic right there. Revan was foolish to think he could defeat the darkness when the Jedi Council was, for lack of a better work, scared.

 

Going in alone was and attacking was stupid, they should have went in and done Recon and reported back to the Council and the Republic. After playing Kotor 2, I don't even consider the Jedi Council from that Era to be Jedi. I found them to be a mockery of everything a Jedi was supposed to be: They condemned, they were close minded, they were willing to sit back as people died, and they were even willing to cut off someone who had done more work than all of them combineds connection to the force.

[Aurbere]

Going in alone was and attacking was stupid, they should have went in and done Recon and reported back to the Council and the Republic. After playing Kotor 2, I don't even consider the Jedi Council from that Era to be Jedi. I found them to be a mockery of everything a Jedi was supposed to be: They condemned, they were close minded, they were willing to sit back as people died, and they were even willing to cut off someone who had done more work than all of them combineds connection to the force.

 

The Jedi Council did what they thought was right. Remember in EP.4 Ben Kenobi tells Luke that he must do what he thinks is right. The Council saw the bigger threat and wanted to prepare for it. But they also failed to see the threat right in front of them. Different choices could have been made by both Revan and the Council, but it was inevitably Revan who caused far more destruction than the Mandalorians.

 

And I believe Meetra cut herself off from the Force. Not sure though. Rayla knows pretty much everything about Meetra so Rayla would know.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Aurbere

[Tuscad]

The Jedi Council did what they thought was right. Remember in EP.4 Ben Kenobi tells Luke that he must do what he thinks is right. The Council saw the bigger threat and wanted to prepare for it. But they also failed to see the threat right in front of them. Different choices could have been made by both Revan and the Council, but it was inevitably Revan who caused far more destruction than the Mandalorians.

 

And I believe Meetra cut herself off from the Force. Not sure though. Rayla knows pretty much everything about Meetra so Rayla would know.

 

I meant at the end of the game when you meet the remaining masters at the enclave on Dantooine (you have to be lightsided), they are going to cut you off from the force and they put you in force statis to do it and then Kreia comes in and cuts them all off from the force while they are trying to do it to you, the masters couldn't stand being without the Force and die. It shows how arrogant they were and how afraid they were of what they did not understand, I mean the Exile did everything right and was making the galaxy a better place and the council comes in and says something along the lines of "We believe the sentence that we gave you all of those years ago was the proper one, the sentence remains the same: Exile. We are going to sever your connection to the force as it once was.".

 

After reading what I just typed I think the Council probably would have ignored the existance of the Emperor if they had discovered it out of fear. They were just so scared of the darkside, ironically, fear is a pathway to the darkside.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Tuscad

[Aurbere]

I meant at the end of the game when you meet the remaining masters at the enclave on Dantooine (you have to be lightsided), they are going to cut you off from the force and they put you in force statis to do it and then Kreia comes in and cuts them all off from the force while they are trying to do it to you, the masters couldn't stand being without the Force and die. It shows how arrogant they were and how afraid they were of what they did not understand, I mean the Exile did everything right and was making the galaxy a better place and the council comes in and says something along the lines of "We believe the sentence that we gave you all of those years ago was the proper one, the sentence remains the same: Exile. We are going to sever your connection to the force as it once was.".

 

After reading what I just typed I think the Council probably would have ignored the existance of the Emperor if they had discovered it out of fear. They were just so scared of the darkside, ironically, fear is a pathway to the darkside.

 

They were blinded by fear. I don't know what they were thinking, but it was clearly wrong. In this case, they were wrong and Kreia was right for stopping them. But that's the only time she was right. Kreia's EVILLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!

[Rikalonius]

The Mandalorians wanted to fight the jedi. The Council believed that if they maintained a peaceful stance, the Mandalorians would give up their crusade because they didn't get the challenge they wanted. Revan provided the challenge they wanted, against the Council's wishes.

 

These are logical reasons for the Councils peaceful stance during the war.

1. Stated above

2. They saw something far more dangerous lurking out there and wanted to preserve the Order in preparation for the coming storm

3. War with the Mandalorians could drive many Jedi to the Dark Side

4. all of the above.

 

Number 4 is the most likely option, imo.

 

Can we at least agree the Council though wrongly that the Mandalorians would give up their plans? So, let's look at your stated reasons one by one.

 

They say something for more dangerous lurking out there and wanted to preserve the Order in preparation for the coming storm.

 

So, was the Order going to hide out in their temple and then face the coming storm alone after every core world was in the hands of the Mandalorians, or was "scorched". What would there be left to defend? They still would have had to fight the Mandalorians at that point, because undefeated, they would have aligned with the Sith and wiped out the Order anyway. Or, without the aid of the Sith, and with no Republic military to aid them, the Mandalorians could have lay siege the Jedi Temple and killed everyone.

 

So, your next conjecture is that they believed that many Jedi would fall to the darkside.

 

All the more reason for the Order to engage as a cohesive unit. By letting billions die they demonstrated a complete reversal of Jedi teachings, one that was confusing to its adherents. If they thought something bigger was on the horizon, they should have acted quickly to dispense the immediate threat. Had the Council acted as a unified force, taking the Republic military into action against the Mandalorians immediately and before they suffered the setback they'd suffered from Jedi inaction, then the Jedi who finally broke with the Order wouldn't have had to fight from a disadvantaged position. This meant they were already compromised from the split and acting more aggressively than usual to overcome the odds. A unified Order may have provided the necessary support to keep Jedi from falling

 

Then, to top it all off, rather than forgive, and unify the order after the war, the haughty Council lashed out at the returning Jedi and attempted to disfellowship and publicly humiliate them. This obviously didn't go over well with the veteran Republic military who had fought with them, which caused a further rift, one which split the Republic forces allegiances. None of them, Vrook, Vandar, Atris (who fell to the dark side herself) ever acknowledged any wrong doing. So in the end, the Councils arrogance caused the exact chain of events they sought to avoid. Ironic, no?

Edited August 26, 2012 by Rikalonius

[Tuscad]

Can we at least agree the Council though wrongly that the Mandalorians would give up their plans? So, let's look at your stated reasons one by one.

 

They say something for more dangerous lurking out there and wanted to preserve the Order in preparation for the coming storm.

 

So, was the Order going to hide out in their temple and then face the coming storm alone after every core world was in the hands of the Mandalorians, or was "scorched". What would there be left to defend? They still would have had to fight the Mandalorians at the point, because undefeated, they would have aligned with the Sith and wiped out the Order anyway.

 

So, your next conjecture is that they believed that many Jedi would fall to the darkside.

 

All the more reason for the Order to engage as a cohesive unit. By letting billions die they demonstrated a complete reversal of Jedi teachings, one that was confusing to its adherents. If they thought something bigger was on the horizon, they should have acted quickly to dispense the immediate threat. Had the Council acted as a unified force, taking the Republic military into action against the Mandalorians immediately and before they suffered the setback they'd suffered from Jedi inaction, then the Jedi who finally broke with the Order wouldn't have had to fight from a disadvantaged position. This meant they were already compromised from the split and acting more aggressively than usual to overcome the odds. A unified Order may have provided the necessary support to keep Jedi from falling

 

Then, to top it all off, rather than forgive, and unify the order after the war, the haughty Council lashed out at the returning Jedi and attempted to disfellowship and publicly humiliate them. This obviously didn't go over well with the veteran Republic military who had fought with them, which caused a further rift, one which split the Republic forces allegiances. None of them, Vrook, Vandar, Atris (who fell to the dark side herself) ever acknowledged any wrong doing. So in the end, the Councils arrogance caused the exact chain of events they sought to avoid. Ironic, no?

 

I would argue that the entire council had fallen to the darkside or were in the process of it when they tried to cut the Exile off from the Force, it might have killed her.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Tuscad

[Aurbere]

Can we at least agree the Council though wrongly that the Mandalorians would give up their plans? So, let's look at your stated reasons one by one.

 

They say something for more dangerous lurking out there and wanted to preserve the Order in preparation for the coming storm.

 

So, was the Order going to hide out in their temple and then face the coming storm alone after every core world was in the hands of the Mandalorians, or was "scorched". What would there be left to defend? They still would have had to fight the Mandalorians at the point, because undefeated, they would have aligned with the Sith and wiped out the Order anyway.

 

So, your next conjecture is that they believed that many Jedi would fall to the darkside.

 

All the more reason for the Order to engage as a cohesive unit. By letting billions die they demonstrated a complete reversal of Jedi teachings, one that was confusing to its adherents. If they thought something bigger was on the horizon, they should have acted quickly to dispense the immediate threat. Had the Council acted as a unified force, taking the Republic military into action against the Mandalorians immediately and before they suffered the setback they'd suffered from Jedi inaction, then the Jedi who finally broke with the Order wouldn't have had to fight from a disadvantaged position. This meant they were already compromised from the split and acting more aggressively than usual to overcome the odds. A unified Order may have provided the necessary support to keep Jedi from falling

 

Then, to top it all off, rather than forgive, and unify the order after the war, the haughty Council lashed out at the returning Jedi and attempted to disfellowship and publicly humiliate them. This obviously didn't go over well with the veteran Republic military who had fought with them, which caused a further rift, one which split the Republic forces allegiances. None of them, Vrook, Vandar, Atris (who fell to the dark side herself) ever acknowledged any wrong doing. So in the end, the Councils arrogance caused the exact chain of events they sought to avoid. Ironic, no?

 

I agree that the Council's thought process was wrong.

 

They hoped that the Mandalorians would give up seeing that the Jedi were not going to give them the fight they wanted. But they didn't realize the extent to which the Mandalorians would go to make the Jedi answer the challenge.

 

The Council saw something out there. Yes they did. But they didn't pay attention to what was right in front of them.

 

The war would have turned several Jedi to the Dark Side. Which it did. But this could have been avoided had Revan not decided to find the darkness that the Council saw.

 

The Council exiled many Jedi because the war had tainted them. They didn't want potentially dangerous Jedi still roaming freely. It was either exile or join Revan. Many joined Revan to avoid the Council's preaching, while others faced their judges and accepted their fate. It was a matter of preserving the Jedi Order, but some Jedi Masters held grudges against those who left for the war. Atris being the obvious one.

[Aurbere]

I would argue that the entire council had fallen to the darkside or were in the process of it when they tried to cut the Exile off from the Force, it might have killed her.

 

Atris was falling to the Dark Side due to her use of Sith holocrons and artifacts. The rest of the Council sought to remove any taint from the Jedi Order. Similar to the quest in KOTOR to defeat Juhani and remove the taint from the ancient grove. But they were wrong in cutting their connection. But the logic behind it is clear. Many exiled Jedi would join Revan if they didn't cut their connection to the Force. Not only would they remove the Order's taint, but prevent Revan from gaining more followers.

 

But this logic is flawed and I do not support them in this scenario.

[Beniboybling]

I believe Revan was right to fight the mandlorians, like kreia said in kotor 2- "apathy is death" the Jedi are meant protect the republic and the mandlorians were a serious threat. What I don't understand however was why Revan decided to go into the unknown regions. Did he sense the emperor's presence or perhaps suspect something else was behind their attack? and I agree he was foolish to go and confront them by himself, he should have at least attempted to convince the Jedi council to take action first. Still we can't hold this against him, he put his life on the line to save the republic, that guys a hero!

[Rikalonius]

I agree that the Council's thought process was wrong.

 

They hoped that the Mandalorians would give up seeing that the Jedi were not going to give them the fight they wanted. But they didn't realize the extent to which the Mandalorians would go to make the Jedi answer the challenge.

 

The Council saw something out there. Yes they did. But they didn't pay attention to what was right in front of them.

 

The war would have turned several Jedi to the Dark Side. Which it did. But this could have been avoided had Revan not decided to find the darkness that the Council saw.

 

The Council exiled many Jedi because the war had tainted them. They didn't want potentially dangerous Jedi still roaming freely. It was either exile or join Revan. Many joined Revan to avoid the Council's preaching, while others faced their judges and accepted their fate. It was a matter of preserving the Jedi Order, but some Jedi Masters held grudges against those who left for the war. Atris being the obvious one.

 

The war had tainted them, in the opinion of the Council. The Jedi would attempt to rehabilitate a Sith, but not a "tainted" Jedi? It was out of personal vendetta, a dark side trait, that the council sought to cut off their attachment to the force. So of course some are going to follow Revan instead, especially if they felt they did nothing wrong. The Council's vengeance would only further demonstrate the rightness of their actions. How then is the Council preparing for the coming storm by exorcising a third of their membership? Frankly that is no better than the Sith. The Sith will kill any force user that doesn't become Sith, or they'll kill them in the trials trying to become one. The Jedi were saying, you'll either obey the Council or you'll be cutoff from the force.

 

Revan was wrong to pursue it alone, I'll give you that, but Council wasn't being very reasonable.

[Tuscad]

Exile and the Council in the Enclave on Dantooine, Kreia cuts them off from the Force:

I thought it might be good to show this and for me to rewatch this.

 

Edit: I haven't seen some of this before, it is using the restored content mod.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Tuscad

[Aurbere]

The war had tainted them, in the opinion of the Council. The Jedi would attempt to rehabilitate a Sith, but not a "tainted" Jedi? It was out of personal vendetta, a dark side trait, that the council sought to cut off their attachment to the force. So of course some are going to follow Revan instead, especially if they felt they did nothing wrong. The Council's vengeance would only further demonstrate the rightness of their actions. How then is the Council preparing for the coming storm by exorcising a third of their membership? Frankly that is no better than the Sith. The Sith will kill any force user that doesn't become Sith, or they'll kill them in the trials trying to become one. The Jedi were saying, you'll either obey the Council or you'll be cutoff from the force.

 

Revan was wrong to pursue it alone, I'll give you that, but Council wasn't being very reasonable.

 

If you mean rehabilitating Revan, the Council wanted to use Revan against the Sith and it worked in the long run.

 

The Council couldn't risk fallen Jedi doing damage to the Jedi Order, that's why they did what they did.

 

No, the Council wasn't being reasonable. But I understand why they thought what they did.

[OldVengeance]

I thought the second game made it clear that the Exile was the only Jed that returned from the war to face the Council's judmgent. The rest of the Jedi in the war either perished or turned to the darkside.

[Aurbere]

I thought the second game made it clear that the Exile was the only Jed that returned from the war to face the Council's judmgent. The rest of the Jedi in the war either perished or turned to the darkside.

 

I think there were other Jedi that went back. It's been awhile since I played KOTOR II so I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact details.