Revan should be in jail.

[Aurbere]

I don't think he was driven insane, if you look back at Malachor V you will see that what he had planned on the Foundry is a more extreme example of that. Targeting and killing just Imperials would bring a swift end to the war and while it is not Jedi like it would provide the Republic with a clear cut win when now its future is uncertain. Revan on the Foundry is as Revan as Revan gets. If we were attacked by aliens and our future was uncertain and you were able to come across a device that would wipe them all out and save us, would you use it or hold out and hope that our own force would win or that peace would be attained? I would use the device and save Humanity, this is equal to what Revan was trying to do.

 

He was going to kill more than imperials. His plan included those who were on imperial conquered worlds. Innocent civilians who did nothing to deserve Revans kind of "Justice". Not every imperial deserves death. Most of them are simple civilians trying to get by under Imperial rule. What did they do to Revan? Genocide is wrong. No matter who does it.

[Tuscad]

I don't think your last couple of sentences ring true. Its not like the Empire is a group of scary aliens, many of them are human or near human. Revan in the foundry is perpetuating mass genocide, which is not the Jedi way. In fact you can see Revan fall to the darkside throughout the foundry fight.

 

While the Empire wasn't made up of scary Aliens they would have destroyed and enslaved everything, people would die daily just for some sith to get their jollies and I agree that mass genocide is not the Jedi way but it would of got things done and the Jedi way sure hasn't stopped the galaxy from plunging into countless wars with the Sith.

 

I have only done the foundry fight once and it was a long time ago so I am sort of hazy on it, I think I remember him switching to lightning partway through but I always took that to mean that he was just tapping into both sides of the force which is what he is famous for. I will have to replay it and get back to you on him falling throughout the foundry fight.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Tuscad

[Aurbere]

While the Empire wasn't made up of scary Aliens they would have destroyed and enslaved everything, people would die daily just for some sith to get their jollies and I agree that mass genocide is not the Jedi way but it would of got things done and the Jedi way sure hasn't stopped the galaxy from plunging into countless wars with the Sith.

 

I have only done the foundry fight once and it was a long time ago so I am sort of hazy on it, I think I remember him switching to lightning partway through but I always took that to mean that he was just tapping into both sides of the force which is what he is famous for. I will have to replay it and get back to you on him falling throughout the foundry fight.

 

You're serious aren't you?

 

Genocide is never a good thing. I don't care who does it. Revan planned on killing soldiers, sith, and the innocent civilians simply trying to make a living under imperial rule. Can you justify killing millions of innocent people?

[Tuscad]

He was going to kill more than imperials. His plan included those who were on imperial conquered worlds. Innocent civilians who did nothing to deserve Revans kind of "Justice". Not every imperial deserves death. Most of them are simple civilians trying to get by under Imperial rule. What did they do to Revan? Genocide is wrong. No matter who does it.

 

All non force users except children are drafted into the military around 3:00. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t378n9j3ge0&feature=related I think it still holds true today in the game because I don't recall running into any citizens on the Empire side while I encountered pleny of citizens on Coruscant.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Tuscad

[Aurbere]

All non force users except children are drafted into the military around 3:00. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t378n9j3ge0&feature=related I think it still holds true today in the game because I don't recall running into any citizens on the Empire side while I encountered pleny of citizens on Coruscant.

 

But not every citizen is military. At least not anymore. I run into plenty of non-military personnel on Dromund Kaas. But even so, Genocide is never an option. No matter what. And besides, the Republic pushed the Empire back at the end of CH.3. Revan didn't care who he killed, so long as the Sith Empire is destroyed, that makes him worse than the Sith. Only the Sith Emperor is worse than him.

[Tuscad]

But not every citizen is military. At least not anymore. I run into plenty of non-military personnel on Dromund Kaas. But even so, Genocide is never an option. No matter what. And besides, the Republic pushed the Empire back at the end of CH.3. Revan didn't care who he killed, so long as the Sith Empire is destroyed, that makes him worse than the Sith. Only the Sith Emperor is worse than him.

 

I don't recall any non military personal on Kaas (Bounty Hunters excluded) but I believe you. Revan didn't know that the Empire would be pushed back. Revan had good intentions, better than any of the Sith so I respectfully disagree with you on him being the second evilest person in SWTOR lore. I am not getting into the do's and dont's of Genocide as it makes me uncomfortable. Revan saw it as a swift end to the war and it was a war that the Republic was (and still is) in danger of losing, heck that might have killed the Emperor too and then it would have just been one civilization instead of the entire galaxy. I think this is just something that we are both going to have to agree to disagree on (I am still interested in what you have to say, I just mean it in that I don't think either of us is going to be persuaded to see it the other way).

Edited August 25, 2012 by Tuscad

[Beniboybling]

lets face it guys, if revan hadn't defied the council and gone to war , we'd all be speaking mandolarian (thats probably a quote from someone or another). Revan saved the Republic 3 TIMES! (if you count the mandolorian wars) if revan hadn't orchestrated the peace treaty the emperor would have wiped the floor with the republic

 

and then destroy the rest of the galaxy

 

so if you look at it this way, the republic couldn't have just said - actually we're gonna arrest you even though you saved our hides. Whatsmore revan isn't supposed to be a hero, he's a tragic hero, and that makes him a better and more interesting character.

Revan is also not weak willed or stupid for obvious reasons

[Tahrl]

God, wouldn't that be a kick in the balls.

 

"Oh, so you've been imprisoned and tortured by the Sith Emperor for three centuries? Well don't worry, we've rescued you from that hellish existance!"

 

*Boots Revan into a Republic cell*

[Beniboybling]

God, wouldn't that be a kick in the balls.

 

"Oh, so you've been imprisoned and tortured by the Sith Emperor for three centuries? Well don't worry, we've rescued you from that hellish existance!"

 

*Boots Revan into a Republic cell*

 

"Not to mention saving the galaxy from utter destruction!"

 

*Throws away the key*

[Newyankalt]

Yeah maybe revan destroyed lives but so did vader not only did he destroy many lived he destroyed a planet, all the Jedi, many children But in the end he was redeemed to the light. Vader makes revans acts look like child play.Vader often went against council he was married like revan. He thought with his saber first. And one good act after 20 years of evil made up for everything. If the Jedi could forgive vader than why not revan the Jedi believe everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

[Rayla_Felana]

Yeah maybe revan destroyed lives but so did vader not only did he destroy many lived he destroyed a planet, all the Jedi, many children But in the end he was redeemed to the light. Vader makes revans acts look like child play.Vader often went against council he was married like revan. He thought with his saber first. And one good act after 20 years of evil made up for everything. If the Jedi could forgive vader than why not revan the Jedi believe everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

 

Why this insistence on comparing him to Vader? this is about Revan and whether or not he should have answered for his crimes, don't forget, the main difference is, Vader DID pay for his actions, he spent the rest of his life in a suit, from which he could never escape, at the same time he was forced to do Palpatine's bidding, eventually he fully paid for his crimes by sacrificing himself to save his son and return balance to the force itself.

[Newyankalt]

Why this insistence on comparing him to Vader? this is about Revan and whether or not he should have answered for his crimes, don't forget, the main difference is, Vader DID pay for his actions, he spent the rest of his life in a suit, from which he could never escape, at the same time he was forced to do Palpatine's bidding, eventually he fully paid for his crimes by sacrificing himself to save his son and return balance to the force itself.

 

If they wanted him to answer for his crimes they would have killed him but instead they let him live to help the jedi defeat malak. You didn't think he was going to destroy the star forge than after that the Jedi said they would have no use for him. Mostly everyone forgave him why throw him in a jail.

[BrandonSM]

If they wanted him to answer for his crimes they would have killed him but instead they let him live to help the jedi defeat malak. You didn't think he was going to destroy the star forge than after that the Jedi said they would have no use for him. Mostly everyone forgave him why throw him in a jail.

 

Malak... Malak's fall and everything Malak had done after going to the Dark-Side is all Revan's fault. Malak turned because of him.

[Newyankalt]

Malak... Malak's fall and everything Malak had done after going to the Dark-Side is all Revan's fault. Malak turned because of him.

 

Wasn't it Malik's choice to follow revan who was his friend. Not like revan and malak went to dromond kaas on the intentions of becoming Sith they went there to try to stop them but vitiate overpowered them.

[Tuscad]

Wasn't it Malik's choice to follow revan who was his friend. Not like revan and malak went to dromond kaas on the intentions of becoming Sith they went there to try to stop them but vitiate overpowered them.

 

It was, Revan can even tell Malak that he "is sorry but it was your choice to follow me" in Kotor.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Tuscad

[Aurbere]

I don't recall any non military personal on Kaas (Bounty Hunters excluded) but I believe you. Revan didn't know that the Empire would be pushed back. Revan had good intentions, better than any of the Sith so I respectfully disagree with you on him being the second evilest person in SWTOR lore. I am not getting into the do's and dont's of Genocide as it makes me uncomfortable. Revan saw it as a swift end to the war and it was a war that the Republic was (and still is) in danger of losing, heck that might have killed the Emperor too and then it would have just been one civilization instead of the entire galaxy. I think this is just something that we are both going to have to agree to disagree on (I am still interested in what you have to say, I just mean it in that I don't think either of us is going to be persuaded to see it the other way).

 

You don't really see anyone, but you can see several civilian buildings. People working at the market, the bank and so on and so forth. Those people are simply trying to make a living, but Revan was going to kill them. Sure it would end the war, but then what. That would become the norm. Enemy invades the galaxy, just kill them all, including non combatants.

 

I agree that we can't be disuaded in our thinking so I'll leave it at that.

[Rikalonius]

Wow, that was about a horrible synopsis of KOTOR. First, it is the Jedi Council who should have been punished. Did you call Revan "disrupter of the peace?" The Mandalorians ravaged Onderon. The Republic wanted to marshal against them, and the Jedi Order, who are supposed to be answerable to the Senate refused to help. Because the Mandalorians were looking for a fight with the Jedi, there inaction incensed them and the next world they attacked they burned even harder. Still, the Jedi Order refused to act on the Senate's request for aid and ignored the problem hoping to meditate it away.

 

Revan decided he'd had enough. As a Jedi he was sworn to protect the innocent, and in my opinion had every right to disobey an obviously corrupt council who refused to take action despite Senate pleas. He didn't just lead a few impressionable Jedi he lead a third or more of the order who, like he, saw the injustice in the Council's inaction. Had the Jedi Order acted properly, none of that would have happened, but instead, even after defeating the Mandalorians and sparing billions of lives, the haughty Council decides to take action against those who fought. Full unearned, self righteousness indignation, they turned their animus towards those members who returned to bravely face punishment. The Council was irrefutably wrong. It's Vrook who should have been imprisoned.

 

So Revan escaped and ended up finding the Star Forge, which corrupted him. Then corrupted by the technology of the infinite empire he returned to wage war against the Jedi who had refused to help him.

 

Also Bastilla brought Revan back to the Council in exile on Dantooine AS ORDERED. It was her mission to wipe his memory and turn him into a weapon to fight the Sith. More Jedi Council subterfuge. Remember you (the player Revan) are travelling aboard Bastilla's ship. They are returning to Dantooine when her ship is intercepted. After Revan rescued poor little Bastilla, without his Jedi abilities or his memory, she convinced him the best course of action was to go where she had planned to take him anyway.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Rikalonius

[Aurbere]

Wow, that was about a horrible synopsis of KOTOR. First, it is the Jedi Council who should have been punished. Did you call Revan "disrupter of the peace?" The Mandalorians ravaged Onderon. The Republic wanted to marshal against them, and the Jedi Order, who are supposed to be answerable to the Senate refused to help. Because the Mandalorians were looking for a fight with the Jedi, there inaction incensed them and the next world they attacked they burned even harder. Still, the Jedi Order refused to act on the Senate's request for aid and ignored the problem hoping to meditate it away.

 

Revan decided he'd had enough. As a Jedi he was sworn to protect the innocent, and in my opinion had every right to disobey an obviously corrupt council who refused to take action despite Senate pleas. He didn't just lead a few impressionable Jedi he lead a third or more of the order who, like he, saw the injustice in the Council's inaction. Had the Jedi Order acted properly, none of that would have happened, but instead, even after defeating the Mandalorians and sparing billions of lives, the haughty Council decides to take action against those who fought. Full unearned, self righteousness indignation, they turned their animus towards those members who returned to bravely face punishment. The Council was irrefutably wrong. It's Vrook who should have been imprisoned.

 

So Revan escaped and ended up finding the Star Forge, which corrupted him. Then corrupted by the technology of the infinite empire he returned to wage war against the Jedi who had refused to help him.

 

Also Bastilla brought Revan back to the Council in exile on Dantooine AS ORDERED. It was her mission to wipe his memory and turn him into a weapon to fight the Sith. More Jedi Council subterfuge. Remember you (the player Revan) are travelling aboard Bastilla's ship. They are returning to Dantooine when her ship is intercepted. After Revan rescued poor little Bastilla, without his Jedi abilities or his memory, she convinced him the best course of action was to go where she had planned to take him anyway.

 

You make the Jedi look like this corrupt and evil organization. The Mandalorians wanted to fight the Jedi order. The Council had hoped that the Mandalorians would give up had the Council not stepped in. It's the same as a schoolyard bully. They knew the Mandalorians wanted to fight them, so they refrained from joining the war in hopes that the Mandalorians would give up on their crusade. But they also saw the looming Sith threat. Attacking the Mandalorians would cause an unnecessary loss of Jedi, Jedi that could fight the Sith Empire.

 

But Revan defied the Council. He gave the Mandalorians what they wanted. He met their agression with his own. Initiating his fall to the Dark Side. The Council knew that joining the war could make many Jedi fall to the Dark Side, and that is exactly what happened.

 

I should at least say that Revan was right in attacking the Mandalorians. However, he did so in the wrong way. He used agression, hate and anger. These emotions, coupled with the stresses of war, led many Jedi including Revan to the Dark Side.

 

So the Council was right about many things, but their inaction may or may not have been the wrong course of action.

[Rikalonius]

You make the Jedi look like this corrupt and evil organization. The Mandalorians wanted to fight the Jedi order. The Council had hoped that the Mandalorians would give up had the Council not stepped in. It's the same as a schoolyard bully. They knew the Mandalorians wanted to fight them, so they refrained from joining the war in hopes that the Mandalorians would give up on their crusade. But they also saw the looming Sith threat. Attacking the Mandalorians would cause an unnecessary loss of Jedi, Jedi that could fight the Sith Empire.

 

But Revan defied the Council. He gave the Mandalorians what they wanted. He met their agression with his own. Initiating his fall to the Dark Side. The Council knew that joining the war could make many Jedi fall to the Dark Side, and that is exactly what happened.

 

I should at least say that Revan was right in attacking the Mandalorians. However, he did so in the wrong way. He used agression, hate and anger. These emotions, coupled with the stresses of war, led many Jedi including Revan to the Dark Side.

 

So the Council was right about many things, but their inaction may or may not have been the wrong course of action.

 

Yes, it is like the schoolyard bully, but in this case the teacher just sits and has a sandwich while kid after kid is pummeled because the teacher believes violence is wrong, and if he/she does nothing, maybe the bully will stop.

[Aurbere]

Yes, it is like the schoolyard bully, but in this case the teacher just sits and has a sandwich while kid after kid is pummeled because the teacher believes violence is wrong, and if he/she does nothing, maybe the bully will stop.

 

The Jedi were the bullied in this situation. They believed that a peaceful approach to the Mandalorian agression would cause them to lose interest. But the Jedi did not know how savage the Mandalorians were. They did not think the Mandalorians would keep pushing. But they did, and Revan responded by becoming the bully. He used the mandalorians tactics against them and defeated them.

 

But revan failed to see the big picture. Revan only saw what was right in front of him, not what was in the background, waiting for the right time to strike.

[Rikalonius]

The Jedi were the bullied in this situation. They believed that a peaceful approach to the Mandalorian agression would cause them to lose interest. But the Jedi did not know how savage the Mandalorians were. They did not think the Mandalorians would keep pushing. But they did, and Revan responded by becoming the bully. He used the mandalorians tactics against them and defeated them.

 

But revan failed to see the big picture. Revan only saw what was right in front of him, not what was in the background, waiting for the right time to strike.

 

No, the Jedi Order was not being bullied. They were being challenged. They refused the challenge and watched as the bully savagely beat up one kid after another. It is the Jedi Orders job to defend the Republic and they failed to do that. Guardians of Peace and Justice, or sanctimonious ritualists?

[TKMaster]

I.E. Drew didn't want his baby to die.

 

Really? like every author in the EU isnt bias?

 

LOL.

[TKMaster]

TBQH all Jedi that fall to the dark side and been "redemed" are guilty of crimes and should be punished as such, this whole "The dark side made me do it but im better now so i cant get in trouble" nonsense has always been absurd.

[BrandonSM]

TBQH all Jedi that fall to the dark side and been "redemed" are guilty of crimes and should be punished as such, this whole "The dark side made me do it but im better now so i cant get in trouble" nonsense has always been absurd.

 

Vader got his consequences by getting doused in Lava when he fell to the Dark, and then died when he was redeemed.

 

 

Revan was praised by the Republic and was put on the Jedi Council...waaah?

[Soapland]

1. Revan was not an 'unauthorized vigilante' as you put it. He did not have the backing of the jedi high council, but remember that the council is NOT the government of the republic. Revan was a general of the republic and presumably fully sanctioned by the senate. Its arguable that the jedi who chose to remain neutral while the mandalorians were slaughtering the people of the republic are traitors. And they are definitely cowards. If you remember the first conversation with Atris in her academy (kotor 2), you'll know that the issue was far from black and white.

 

2. Vitiate is literally the most powerful being in the galaxy, he could corrupt anyone. If Revan was 'weak willed', he would never have defied the council in the first place.

 

3. Bastila is not a criminal for bringing Revan to the Jedi. It is an accepted fact that the jedi have a certain level of autonomy as the galaxy's peacekeepers, they need it in order to function. Revan is one of their own, therefore it was understood that he would be tried as a jedi. Anyway what 'federal prison' could hold him?

 

4. He wasn't 'remade' into a jedi, he was always a jedi, thats the whole point of the story. Redemption and all that. You may not think of him as a hero, since he was just cleaning up his own mess, but he's no brainless darth maul. He's more like Vader, except less successful at killing the emperor.

 

5. The thread title is 'Revan should be in jail', he served 300 years in solitary confinement. Not good enough for you?

 

Then again, who knows how Revan's story finally ends after he disappears from the foundry. Vitiate certainly never succeeded in consuming the galaxy, so it stands to reason someone must have stopped him or killed him. I mean, he could have died of extreme old age, but that seems lame and unlikely. My money is on Revan to finally end that old ****er. Perhaps we will see this in an expansion or book in future. I think it would be awesome for there to be a new trilogy centered on Revan, too bad GL would never allow that.