Star Trek vs Star Wars (multiple scenarios)

[Rayla_Felana]

Yeah, but this is also assuming that Wars didn't adapt and we know that they can, as they did during the 'Vong invasion. Seriously, all it would take to wipe the entire Borg Collective out would be one HRD with a viral payload. HRD means Human Replica Droid, droids so advanced that they can trick scanners and even medical examinations (something Trek has never even seen) and were featured prominently in the Shadows of the Empire novel. Load one up with a computer virus, put it on a planet about to be hit by the Borg, let it get assimilated... BAM... Dead collective.

 

Also... Yes... The Borg adapt quickly... But we are talking weapons that could one shot a Borg Cube here. Things like Galaxy Guns.

 

I think you underestimate the Borg collective, in the episode Endgame of Voyager, they used exactly the kind of thing you suggested to take down the collective, but only a few minutes after they began to adapt to it, trace down the virus and created a counter-pathogen, fast-forward and the Borg are seriously beating down on the Alpha Quadrant, you can halt them, hold them off for a few years, you can even push them out of your space, but they adapt so well, in a few years they'll return and have all of your counter-measures assimilated.

 

Also, one thing people seem to forget, the Borg are known for creating temporal shifts, etc... if they went back in time, to a weaker Galactic power, the Empire would never happen, in their place, would be a Borg assimilated galaxy.

[Lorica]

The major reason the Borg could not defeat the Federation is because of Jean Luc Picard being a former member of the Collective and 7 of 9 with access to Unamatrix Zero. Personally, the Borg should have mopped the Federation but Star Trek has always been about beating the odds and if the Borg destroy the Federation, that ends Star Trek until the next reboot or whatever.

 

You are forgetting that Star Trek universe has learned how to go back in time which they could do to alter the Star Wars timeline.

 

As for projectile weapons, don't you think the Borg dealt with civilizations that only have projectile weapons? Of course, they have. All they have to do is reconfigure their nanites or strap on heavier armor.

 

As for inferior robotics and cybernetics, I seriously doubt that. Data was a hobby of Dr. Noonien Soong and he wanted Data to grow in his sentience instead of just by giving it to him. Again, Star Trek is about beating the odds while Star Wars is about the Roman Empire vs the World with a Japenese flare.

 

However it still all boils down to one fact, Star Trek is based more off scientific fact than science fiction. If you want proof, Google it yourself.

 

As for the numbers, does anyone have the official population numbers of both universes? Without the numbers, it can not be used in an argument.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Lorica

[ProfessorWalsh]

I think you underestimate the Borg collective, in the episode Endgame of Voyager, they used exactly the kind of thing you suggested to take down the collective, but only a few minutes after they began to adapt to it, trace down the virus and created a counter-pathogen, fast-forward and the Borg are seriously beating down on the Alpha Quadrant, you can halt them, hold them off for a few years, you can even push them out of your space, but they adapt so well, in a few years they'll return and have all of your counter-measures assimilated.

 

Also, one thing people seem to forget, the Borg are known for creating temporal shifts, etc... if they went back in time, to a weaker Galactic power, the Empire would never happen, in their place, would be a Borg assimilated galaxy.

 

Eh, I don't like bringing time travel into things... If they go back in time they could also wind up facing an even stronger enemy... Something like a Jedi Order at their height. I am actually very certain that assimilating a powerful Jedi Master would be a mistake that would end the Borg. Or worse... The Borg could encounter Celestials... Celestials would obliterate the Borg before the Borg could say the word, "Assimilate."

[Rayla_Felana]

As for projectile weapons, don't you think the Borg dealt with civilizations that only have projectile weapons? Of course, they have. All they have to do is reconfigure their nanites or strap on heavier armor.

 

That's what you call a Borg Tactical Cube, they make regular ones looks like Borg Probes in comparison.

[Astarica]

First thing that is wrong- that war definitely did not last 25 years... (Or at least coruscant standard years which are supposed to be same as Earth... however since it´s star is blue, inhabitable zone should be roughly at distance of Mars from Sol... which should make it´s years twice as long as ours)

 

And it is actualy questionable what is "sentient" in SW terms. Some trees on Ithor (which biosphere was completly destroyed by YV bioweapon were considered sentient (definitely NOT sapient)).

given that there are more planets like Naboo and Tatooine than Coruscant or Correlia... I do not truly like that estimate either.

 

I recall Coruscant houses a trillion sentinent beings just on that planet. Maybe the numbers are exaggerated but again if you lose only 1 billion people that'd be a 'slow news day' event when you're fighting a war where the survival of the galaxy is at stake, as that's only 0.1% of the total population on the capital planet on Star Wars.

 

Star Wars guys absolutely won't be devastated by any kind of massive genocide efforts since they're used to that kind of stuff and depending on which faction you're talking about they might be the ones actively commiting them. Not saying it wouldn't hurt them but they'd just say, 'well this sucks' and move on, whereas losing a billion sentinent beings will probably cause an existential crisis for the Federation.

[ProfessorWalsh]

However it still all boils down to one fact, Star Trek is based more off scientific fact than science fiction. If you want proof, Google it yourself.

 

No.

 

Sorry but no.

 

Go look yourself. The "science fact" that Star Trek is "based on" has largely been debunked. Go look it up yourself. They even covered this on the Science of Star Trek. Star Wars is more realistic than Star Trek according to them... Heck... DOCTOR WHO is more realistic than Star Trek.

 

Yes... You heard me... The TARDIS is more realistic than the things from Star Trek... The freaking TARDIS...

Edited August 14, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Rayla_Felana]

Eh, I don't like bringing time travel into things... If they go back in time they could also wind up facing an even stronger enemy... Something like a Jedi Order at their height. I am actually very certain that assimilating a powerful Jedi Master would be a mistake that would end the Borg. Or worse... The Borg could encounter Celestials... Celestials would obliterate the Borg before the Borg could say the word, "Assimilate."

 

......and the Q would stop the Celestials from doing anything like that at all.

 

But if the Borg simply downloaded the galactic history records, picked a weaker spot in the timeline and created a temporal shift back to that time, the Star Wars galaxy wouldn't stand much of a chance at all.

[ProfessorWalsh]

......and the Q would stop the Celestials from doing anything like that at all.

 

What motivation would the Q have to do that? Also... The Celestials were on the level of the Q.

 

Actually... If we go on Star Trek the Celestials could actually kill Q's... According to Voyager Q can be killed by forces equaling a supernova which we know the Celestials could generate and create nearly at will.

 

Also note... If you want to bring Time Travel into things then I am going to bring in Jedi and flow walking and a bunch of other things that would totally frag the Borg over. I will not let people act like everything in Trek is so superior to everything in Wars.

Edited August 14, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[PaerisKiran]

I recall Coruscant houses a trillion sentinent beings just on that planet. Maybe the numbers are exaggerated but again if you lose only 1 billion people that'd be a 'slow news day' event when you're fighting a war where the survival of the galaxy is at stake, as that's only 0.1% of the total population on the capital planet on Star Wars.

 

Star Wars guys absolutely won't be devastated by any kind of massive genocide efforts since they're used to that kind of stuff and depending on which faction you're talking about they might be the ones actively commiting them. Not saying it wouldn't hurt them but they'd just say, 'well this sucks' and move on, whereas losing a billion sentinent beings will probably cause an existential crisis for the Federation.

 

Truth be told I never got any reasonable populace estimate of known Starwars galaxy (Unknown regions excluded)

 

Given riddiculously low amount of clone troopers created I came to conclusion that planetary populace on most planets have to be extremly low.

With Coruscant, Correlia, Kuat beeing rare and extreme examples of densily populated planets- most planets seem more likely like Naboo... one colony and not much else.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Truth be told I never got any reasonable populace estimate of known Starwars galaxy (Unknown regions excluded)

 

Given riddiculously low amount of clone troopers created I came to conclusion that planetary populace on most planets have to be extremly low.

With Coruscant, Correlia, Kuat beeing rare and extreme examples of densily populated planets- most planets seem more likely like Naboo... one colony and not much else.

 

The Clone Trooper numbers were amended after Traviss made up a stupidly small number. We know that in the Vong War about 5% of the known galactic population was wiped out. That means there are around 800 Trillion at least sentient beings in Star Wars.

[PaerisKiran]

What motivation would the Q have to do that? Also... The Celestials were on the level of the Q.

 

Actually... If we go on Star Trek the Celestials could actually kill Q's... According to Voyager Q can be killed by forces equaling a supernova which we know the Celestials could generate and create nearly at will.

 

Also note... If you want to bring Time Travel into things then I am going to bring in Jedi and flow walking and a bunch of other things that would totally frag the Borg over. I will not let people act like everything in Trek is so superior to everything in Wars.

 

Eh I do not think so... Q (the hotter one) said those explosion are mostly biproducts of warfare. I think (of course noone can verify it) that those supernovae were like smoke from the "blackpoweder" used in those "Q guns" (eventhough Voyager´s crew used them with incentive "press this, it will work")

[Rayla_Felana]

What motivation would the Q have to do that?

 

They don't like entire races disappearing in a nano-second.

 

Also... The Celestials were on the level of the Q.

 

What? completely omnipotent and transcending dimensions?

 

Actually... If we go on Star Trek the Celestials could actually kill Q's... According to Voyager Q can be killed by forces equaling a supernova which we know the Celestials could generate and create nearly at will.

 

The Q definition of 'killed' and our's are two totally different things, you forget though, Trelane once held power beyond that of even the continuum when he meddled with 'the heart of the storm' and could open up dimensional rifts, close them, create new ones, all sorts of godlike abilities.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[PaerisKiran]

The Clone Trooper numbers were amended after Traviss made up a stupidly small number. We know that in the Vong War about 5% of the known galactic population was wiped out. That means there are around 800 Trillion at least sentient beings in Star Wars.

 

I am not going with Traviss number... but reasonable output of Kamino with simple space that has been depicted in clone wars series simply can not overdo billion per 10 years. (and I am strethching that UP!)

 

realizing there had to be training facilities on planet too. And that is still too few to wage any level of warfare within galaxy with 800 trilion sentients... even Excluding Hutt space, Hapans and Chiss and Wild space

[ProfessorWalsh]

The Q definition of 'killed' and our's are two totally different things, you forget though, Trelane once held power beyond that of even the continuum when he meddled with 'the heart of the storm' and could open up dimensional rifts, close them, create new ones, all sorts of godlike abilities.

 

Actually according to the Trek novels Trelane was a Q, but a young Q.

 

Also... Yes... Celestials created the Star Wars Galaxy and "transcended" to other planes. They were for all intents and purposes Gods.

Edited August 14, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Astarica]

Star Trek plot devices loses to Force visions so there's no point to bring them in. A vision, once they occur, is basically never wrong. Usually efforts to circumvent the vision turns out to be what exactly enabled it in the first place. While the actual meaning of the vision is open to interpretation, because visions are generally positive to whoever sees it (that is, the Vision isn't trying to trick you into doing something to mess yourself up), it is sufficient to stop any Star Trek plot device attempting to gain an advantage. Yes it originally says no Force users but you're talking about plot devices (time traveling, Q) so they need a plot device to be countered.

 

For example let's take the Borg, who are defeated by some inexplicable freak accidents where a defector or a human gain access to some super duper secret information that they really shouldn't have been able to. To destroy the Borg in Star Wars side would look pretty similar to how Sel'Makor was defeated in the Jedi Knight story. Some random guy will see a vision of a random Padawan walking up to a Borg cube, gets assimilated, and the cube gets blown up. Although nobody has any idea why this happens, it will happen the way like the vision played out and the Borg will be destroyed, because the Vision is never wrong. This power trumps even Q, as even if you tell a Q you saw this vision, what's going to happen is whatever Q does to prevent this vision will turn out to be what enabled this vision. The only weakness is that visions are vulnerable to Jedi double-talk, i.e. 'bring balance to the Force' doesn't really mean what you think it does. But once again, Visions are at least neutral or better (nobody ever said Jedi have a moral right to existence over Sith) so they're at least sufficeint as defenses against other plot devices, even if the outcome might turn out to be not quite what you expected.

 

In particular time travel plot devices always gives both parties an ability to send some kind of super elite squad to do/undo the events. For example if X went back time to kill Picard when he's a baby, Picard always gets to do something (often going back in time himself) to stop X, despite the fact that had X really succeeded in killing Picard then obviously the future Picard would not be able to go back to save himself since he'd never existed, and he wouldn't have any friends to help him going back in time because none of thsoe guys would ever known Picard. So given the standard limitation of time traveling, the Star Wars universe will always be able to send say a team of Jedi to prevent their history from getting wiped out, and it's hard to beat a team of Jedis when you've two squads of people fighting each other.

[PaerisKiran]

The Q definition of 'killed' and our's are two totally different things, you forget though, Trelane once held power beyond that of even the continuum when he meddled with 'the heart of the storm' and could open up dimensional rifts, close them, create new ones, all sorts of godlike abilities.

 

Do not go for novels... anyone can write that and they are completly out of canon.

 

But yes, Q can be killed, how... as Q (TNG,Voyager and DS9 (one op)) said... is beyond our understanding. We can be made to see the principle as gun (or as a sword if he changes our perceptions to do it) and even operate, but would never understand it. (yet that is, as they feared humanity will evolve beyond them eventualy)

[Rayla_Felana]

Actually according to the Trek novels Trelane was a Q, but a young Q.

 

Yes but he did surpass even the continuum's power.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[PaerisKiran]

Actually according to the Trek novels Trelane was a Q, but a young Q.

 

Also... Yes... Celestials created the Star Wars Galaxy and "transcended" to other planes. They were for all intents and purposes Gods.

 

Eh... the "Celestials" are actualy Father, Son, and Daughter from Clone wars series... so these theories actualy seized to apply. Son and Daughter made Killiks build Centerpoint to contain Abeloth.

 

(That is the core of information purged of Killik hive mind babling about the subject) They "emerged" From the Force and took shape... Son representing Entropy and destruction, Daughter order and creation, and Father Balance between those two... "dark", "light" and the "balance" between those.

Abeloth stole their power. They contained her when needed. But only after centuries of wreaking havoc... now they are all "dead" (or more likely forced back into the whole of Force and won´t emerge in centuries or millenia, and Jedi are franticaly looking for Mortis monolith and that dagger to finish Abeloth completly.)

Edited August 14, 2012 by PaerisKiran

[ProfessorWalsh]

Eh... the "Celestials" are actualy Father, Son, and Daughter from Clone wars series... so these theories actualy seized to apply. Son and Daughter made Killiks build Centerpoint to contain Abeloth.

 

Actually the Father, Son, and Daughter weren't Celestials the Killiks were clear on that. They were something else.

[PaerisKiran]

Actually the Father, Son, and Daughter weren't Celestials the Killiks were clear on that. They were something else.

 

I played audiobook few weeks back they weren´t clear about anything. (I am making another round... currently listening to Ysard´s revenge)

 

They called them "The ones", after Raynar asked about "celestials" they did not put anything conclusive. But generaly term "celestial" refers to designers of Centerpoint... and in this respect term suffices.

 

But as everyone says- Killik hive minds are notoriously unrealiable- I worked that all out after Luke talked about what Yoda told him.

[Nydus]

Watch the clips I linked.

 

Ummm... Professor Walsh... there is NO indication of the distance between DS9 and the two klingon ships and the speeds they are moving at. At the point of the youtube video you linked directly to there are 3 misses at that exact point ... immediately followed by direct hit after direct hit for almost 5 full minutes!!! I counted 10 direct hits in the 60 seconds after that point (which is a mish mash of several battles throughout the series; which adds more credence to my points than yours).

 

However, I'm a bit disturbed by how easy you think a naval battle is. You could point and click a direct hit on your computer? You wouldn't need to calculate the distance to the target? The speed of the target and heading? The likely speed and heading of your target at the time the torpedo travels to it? You wouldn't need to take into account the very time it is taking you to calculate the above and the age of the data you are using to determine all of the above? You think the above is easy?

 

I'm actually just referencing some of the complexities of modern submarine warfare... in space there is an entire other dimension of complexity; you have to worry about your spin, you have targets that can travel along an entirely different dimension (up and down), and you are relying on sensor data (sorry, you aren't and shouldn't look out a window). You think that would be easy?

 

REALLY?

 

Anyone on these forums with land or naval artillery experience is laughing their *** off right now. Sorry professor, but hitting a target kilometers away is NOT easy even WITH computerized assistance. Without it?

 

Further to the point, prior to modern fire control and precise radar (e.g. WW2 era for example) naval combat happened largely within sight of the target. And guess what, proven 100% fact that large capital ships within viewing distance of each other (e.g. the Bismark vs. the Hood) missed each other.

 

EVEN at closer range it wasn't easy. Naval bombers would miss their targets -- large aircraft carriers and battleships -- a few dozen meters over their target because of the evasive maneuvres of the pilots, the maneuvres of the ship below, the overall confusion, etc.

 

Considering Roddenberry was a WW2 pilot in the pacific theatre, this is exactly the kind of combat he is referencing.

 

Now sure, in Star Trek we do have advanced computerized assistance but -- as with naval vessels today -- electronic countermeasures and limited computing power make this a tad more difficult than you'd think.

 

It's just too bad we can't take modern computer game, sci-fi loving generation and stick them in American Navy in 1941! Just a handful of us and we could single handedly sink the entire Japaneese Imperial Navy. No training over years and years and going up through the ranks to become an artillery officer...

 

.... because it is soOoOO eassssyyyy.

 

Please realize the above is in good humour, but I'm pointing to these real and more serious examples because ... well ... I'm a WW2 buff and they are right on target so to speak

 

I really don't think you have a good point on this one. At least you haven't made it effectively... yet.

 

- Arcada

Edited August 14, 2012 by Nydus

[fellblade]

As a point of interest (and i apologise as it is not exactly what the OP was asking for... but seeing as people are talking about Q and the Celestials etc) I would be curious as to what people think what the powers of Someone like Darth Nihilus could do to the Borg...... I think someone such as he could be pretty devastating against them especially with their 'Collective' setup they may be particularly vulnerable (by draining one could he possibly drain all that are 'connected' to that one at the same time or perhaps do some kind of 'Sever Collective' type thing?) and it is a non technological based ability that probably cant be adapted to or assimilated. (I have always thought that Borg would be especially disadvantaged to powerful force-users)

 

I could be wrong and probably biased as I have never ever been a big fan of the Borg....

I would take tough, slow-moving Lizardmen with nonchangeable facial expressions over them- any day of the week

(You Can Tell that - yep - Classic Star Trek is definitely my favourite of the Star Trek Franchise)

[Nydus]

I could be wrong and probably biased as I have never ever been a big fan of the Borg....

I would take tough, slow-moving Lizardmen with nonchangeable facial expressions over them- any day of the week

(You Can Tell that - yep - Classic Star Trek is definitely my favourite of the Star Trek Franchise)

 

Borg are overrated. I've always been a bit confused by the Borg -- definite inconsistencies there. I think Nihilus would be able to "sap" a single Cube but I've never been quite sure to what extent the Borg Cubes are hooked into the entire collective. A cube is destroyed, there are references to borg everywhere knowing about it on voyager.

 

I guess that is a way of saying the Borg while isolated might fall victim to nihilus, but if they are plugged into the entire collective probably not.

 

- Arcada

[ProfessorWalsh]

Anyone on these forums with land or naval artillery experience is laughing their *** off right now. Sorry professor, but hitting a target kilometers away is NOT easy even WITH computerized assistance. Without it?

 

Actually it is incredibly easy.

 

Ever used a laser pointer? I have. Ever used an industrial laser spotter? I have has well. Painting a target kilometers away is very easy to do with computerized image enhancement and stabilizers.

 

Remember in space one doesn't have to worry about bullet drop, wind calculations, etc. One of the benefit of energy weapons specifically is that they are far more accurate due to not having to take those things into account. A naval ship will miss another naval ship usually because of things like having to arc a shell. Put two ships that close to each other with weapons that work on a line of sight principle and watch how easy it is to put a dot on the enemy ship.

[Astarica]

Truth be told I never got any reasonable populace estimate of known Starwars galaxy (Unknown regions excluded)

 

Given riddiculously low amount of clone troopers created I came to conclusion that planetary populace on most planets have to be extremly low.

With Coruscant, Correlia, Kuat beeing rare and extreme examples of densily populated planets- most planets seem more likely like Naboo... one colony and not much else.

 

Well Earth houses 6 billion people and Coruscant has no oceans and is apparently consist solely of skyscrapers so fitting 1 trillion sentinent beings doens't seem like a stretch. Obviously a planet like Tatooine probably won't come anywhere close to 1 billion inhabitants.

 

I'd assume the run of the mill planet in Star Wars resembles more like Earth in terms of population. It's not going to be hyper populated like Coruscant but an earth sized planet with reasonably tolerable condition for life (i.e. not Hoth or Tatooine) should be able to hold a few billion beings easy.