spacerobot Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 The answer is completely and totally apparent to me. Make a game that you can't blow through everything in a month Really its that simple I hear ya there. It's tough though. If you were to launch a game now as brutal as EQ, Asherons Call were etc. People would play, rage quit, uninstall and never look back because it would be too much of a grind. It's like you can't win now no matter what kind of MMO you try to launch. That's why I don't place full blame on the developers for what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediankh Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 The problem is a lack of introspection all around. An unwillingness to objectively look at this very unique genre to see exactly why certain games worked in the context of their time. Just as an example, one aspect of the genre that developers and some players ignore is that unlike any other type of game, most MMO players only play ONE title at a time. This alone accounts for a large part of the problem. Most of that nasty roaming MMO horde are just gamers sick of the WoW model, and though they might complain... They still do their part. They still invest their money and give it a shot. Yet over and over again, what do they find? WoW with a different skin and too little content to sustain a themepark model. Of course they move on. Their just a wretched collective of scum and villainy. That's what i tell myself all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediankh Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I hear ya there. It's tough though. If you were to launch a game now as brutal as EQ, Asherons Call were etc. People would play, rage quit, uninstall and never look back because it would be too much of a grind. It's like you can't win now no matter what kind of MMO you try to launch. That's why I don't place full blame on the developers for what is happening. You also forgot complain on the forums, making the community look bad. And with that said. it's freaking hard to make video games when it's popular, unlike the golden ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeda Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I miss 40 man raids and DKP. I miss castle sieges from Lineage 2 and player owned/run cities. These things made games feel epic, not some snoozefest story or spamming rotations for loot pinatas. I miss wiping on Nef and Cthun and KT for weeks and the feeling you get when you finally kill them. Not the joke 2.0 Nef or KT either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedDjinn Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I hear ya there. It's tough though. If you were to launch a game now as brutal as EQ, Asherons Call were etc. People would play, rage quit, uninstall and never look back because it would be too much of a grind. It's like you can't win now no matter what kind of MMO you try to launch. That's why I don't place full blame on the developers for what is happening. EQ is not relevant. EQ was the prototype for the genre that only blew up because of time and place. It was the 'first' in many categories, but as a game, even back then, it wasn't particularly good. Hell EQ was modeled more after the old arcade machines. You were never meant to get anywhere. The whole thing was an exercise in getting you to put more money in the slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Nope. Its the game. If the game is bad, people will leave. Been in MMO's for over 10 years, if you dont think it's the playerbase you must be new. But i'll put my money where my mouth is.... If by the 3rd month of the messiah MMO, Guild Wars 2's forums arent an endless trollfest of pissing and moaning about the game, i'll e-mail you, get your adress and send you a $50 bill. Todays MMO gamers will make sure that by 2020 the genre will be dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediankh Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) EQ is not relevant. EQ was the prototype for the genre that only blew up because of time and place. It was the 'first' in many categories, but as a game, even back then, it wasn't particularly good. Hell EQ was modeled more after the old arcade machines. You were never meant to get anywhere. The whole thing was an exercise in getting you to put more money in the slot. Techincally Ultima online was the first but the very first and is in fact the prototype is neverwinter nights made by stormfront studios and this is before bioware took the rights for it. and if you want to go further mazewar that is all. Edited August 2, 2012 by jediankh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediankh Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Been in MMO's for over 10 years, if you dont think it's the playerbase you must be new. But i'll put my money where my mouth is.... If by the 3rd month of the messiah MMO, Guild Wars 2's forums arent an endless trollfest of pissing and moaning about the game, i'll e-mail you, get your adress and send you a $50 bill. Todays MMO gamers will make sure that by 2020 the genre will be dead. A sad truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthWoad Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Been in MMO's for over 10 years, if you dont think it's the playerbase you must be new. But i'll put my money where my mouth is.... If by the 3rd month of the messiah MMO, Guild Wars 2's forums arent an endless trollfest of pissing and moaning about the game, i'll e-mail you, get your adress and send you a $50 bill. Todays MMO gamers will make sure that by 2020 the genre will be dead. Why would people complain if the players are satisfied with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Why would people complain if the players are satisfied with it? ....yeah, your new. Welcome to MMO's enjoy the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediankh Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 ....yeah, your new. Welcome to MMO's enjoy the ride. And i'll be his guide. i'll be like samba's dad or obi-wan....wait both of those characters died!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthWoad Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 ....yeah, your new. Welcome to MMO's enjoy the ride. Theres a difference between "trolling moanfest trolls" and "people I dont agree with". If GW2 isnt full of that, then we'll know that the players are happy with the game. But we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangarrage Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) I hear ya there. It's tough though. If you were to launch a game now as brutal as EQ, Asherons Call were etc. People would play, rage quit, uninstall and never look back because it would be too much of a grind. It's like you can't win now no matter what kind of MMO you try to launch. That's why I don't place full blame on the developers for what is happening. I admit you can't make a game exactly like EQ and youre right this soft minded 2nd gen gamers wouldnt be able to take it, but you can make a game where it isn't go to this hub do 4 quests and gain a level. And you can make a game where you pack your expansions with raid content and you can put in a system where the raids are levels instead of a new 50 doing the "end boss" in a month And you can separate pvp and pve so you dont have to balance characters worrying about both sides because that is an epic fail as well But this genre was about teamwork exploration working to figure out mobs and pattern and that is gone now and replaced with mindles******** of buttons and everyone wanting new shineys after 2 hour of play Edited August 2, 2012 by mangarrage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasticles Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) I feel a huge part of the problem in this gen of MMO's are the people not necessarily the games. And I'm not slamming the people either I just think that they way people play games have changed affecting how MMO's are played and perceived. Read the 1st paragraph... was enough for me...... Have a go at this. maybe you'll understand..... http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1225612p1.html Edited August 2, 2012 by Rasticles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedDjinn Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Techincally Ultima online was the first but the very first and is in fact the prototype is neverwinter nights made by stormfront studios and this is before bioware took the rights for it. and if you want to go further mazewar that is all. Not first MMOish thing ever, EQ was the first to have that level of success. More importantly it was the first to provide a real virtual world for gamers to hang out in. It was our Facebook, as much a social networking tool as a game. The first time many gamers ever heard people shouting nonsense across a zone was in EQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacerobot Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 EQ is not relevant. EQ was the prototype for the genre that only blew up because of time and place. It was the 'first' in many categories, but as a game, even back then, it wasn't particularly good. Hell EQ was modeled more after the old arcade machines. You were never meant to get anywhere. The whole thing was an exercise in getting you to put more money in the slot. I disagree with this. I think the focus back then was on making a game that you could virtually live in. It's not that you weren't meant to get anywhere. You were meant to be there in the world and coexist with other players. I think there was a similar philosophy with Vanguard: SOH too. The industry and the horde had moved on from that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typeslice Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) Nope. Its the game. If the game is bad, people will leave. No MMO since WoW has had a healthy first year. Not all of them have been bad, but people still left all of them in droves. WoW was "bad" at this stage too - they were just afforded the luxury of being the first post EQ AAA MMO with no real competition. Edited August 2, 2012 by Typeslice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacerobot Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 Read the 1st paragraph... was enough for me...... Have a go at this. maybe you'll understand..... http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1225612p1.html Thanks. I read that earlier today. Interesting stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthWoad Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Bioware failed to keep their promises, thats one of the main reasons this game is doing so badly. Of course its the players fault that bioware didnt step up to what they said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediankh Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Theres a difference between "trolling moanfest trolls" and "people I dont agree with". If GW2 isnt full of that, then we'll know that the players are happy with the game. But we'll see. Well the pattern is a bit frightning.... New MMO>people squeel>interviews>people believe in the hype>game comes out>constant complaining, threats of unsubing, if not unsubing spew hateful vile on official forum, unsubbed spew hateful vile on videos, article related to said game.>rinse and repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacerobot Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 I admit you can't make a game exactly like EQ and youre right this soft minded 2nd gen gamers wouldnt be able to take it, but you can make a game where it isn't go to this hub do 4 quests and gain a level. And you can make a game where you pack your expansions with raid content and you can put in a system where the raids are levels instead of a new 50 doing the "end boss" in a month And you can separate pvp and pve so you dont have to balance characters worrying about both sides because that is an epic fail as well But this genre was about teamwork exploration working to figure out mobs and pattern and that is gone now and replaced with mindles******** of buttons and everyone wanting new shineys after 2 hour of play I agree. But to go down this road now you would have to have the design vision and understanding that you aren't going to be building a game for the horde. With budgets and costs to develop these games going through the roof it seems like it will be hard for a developer to shoot lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediankh Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Bioware failed to keep their promises, thats one of the main reasons this game is doing so badly. Of course its the players fault that bioware didnt step up to what they said. Which is why i say bioware needs new employees. and the funny thing is i agree with you on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedDjinn Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) Been in MMO's for over 10 years, if you dont think it's the playerbase you must be new. But i'll put my money where my mouth is.... If by the 3rd month of the messiah MMO, Guild Wars 2's forums arent an endless trollfest of pissing and moaning about the game, i'll e-mail you, get your adress and send you a $50 bill. Todays MMO gamers will make sure that by 2020 the genre will be dead. This Ive never understood. The vets who don't understand there own genre, it's player base or why it became popular in the first place. Did it ever occur to you that the shift in MMO priorities is as much in response to the old guard *growing up* and getting out of the basement? I don't know about you, but I could never play an EQ type MMO again. The ability to devote that level of time and attention to a game goes out the window the moment one gets a full time job. Edited August 2, 2012 by WickedDjinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan-the-knight Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I feel a huge part of the problem in this gen of MMO's are the people not necessarily the games. And I'm not slamming the people either I just think that they way people play games have changed affecting how MMO's are played and perceived. There is an MMO herd that roams through the digital landscape like a plague looking to devour new games and content. People get overly hyped and psyched about a new MMO. The MMO launches, they move in and blow through content fast, get bored, rage quit, slam the game and look to the next product. I'm not saying people are right or wrong for doing this. I'm saying that gamers habits and tastes have changed. I think this has come about due to the amount of games that are launching constantly. There are so many games in general releasing all the time, and specifically so many MMO's releasing that MMO's have turned into normal games that people play for a couple of weeks to a month then move to the next game. Sometimes it is warranted though. Some MMO's have been very bad at launch. When I think of a bad MMO launch and just poor game mechanics in general I think of the Vanguard launch, FFXIV (I would consider that a failure), APB etc. There have also been some great MMO's that have released that I know a lot of people blew through in a week, quit, uninstalled and will never go back. I put SWTOR, Tera, and Rift in that crowd. In my opinion they are nowhere near deserving a the tags "failure", and "suck". GW2 is the next target. Everyone is hyping it up like crazy, the same way everyone hyped up SWTOR. The herd is going to move in, devour, quit and move on. A month after release people are going to be in the same boat talking about how GW2 and how it fell way short of the hype. All this talk of losing subs, failure, F2P ruining the game etc, is part of the process of how a large portion of MMO players relate to games now since the majority of people do not want to play a game for more than a month no matter what it is. I think in no way that means that some of these great MMO's suck and are failures. I'm a huge MMO fan. I always have been since the launch of EQ. I think SWTOR is a great game. Not perfect, but still great. I'm excited to see where they take the game and excited for the F2P crowd to jump in and start playing. It's all about building a product/franchise now after launch in the best way possible as opposed to having one shot at launch with succeed or failure states. I think F2P makes a lot of sense. Quoted, For Truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediankh Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I agree. But to go down this road now you would have to have the design vision and understanding that you aren't going to be building a game for the horde. With budgets and costs to develop these games going through the roof it seems like it will be hard for a developer to shoot lower. yeah, games in general in my opinion don't have the proper resources to accommodate this many peoples needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts