Yesterday's interview with Jeff Hickman - lots of answers

[Rasticles]

Then you arent paying attention, because what they already showed and outlined looks almost exactly like DDOs model.

 

So I have more facts backing my example, and you just have your distrust and rage backing yours.

 

Really? Pot, over there, in the corner, is Kettle .....

 

WHERE in the galaxy have YOU been?

 

LoL REALLY?

 

They SAID tons of stuff that hasn't come to pass....how's the view down there in the sand .....???

[Erudain]

Well they are saying no p2w items....I want to believe them, I really do, but on the other side I played lots of game that started with vanity/conviniece cash shop items and sooner or later turned into p2w games.

 

List of games I played that started with vanity items and derailed to p2w games:

- Aion (after going f2p)

- R.O.H.A.N

- RF Online

- Atlantica Online

- Perfect World

- Fiesta Online

- Flyff

- Granado Espada

- Twelve Sky

 

I'm sure there are plenty more....question is do we trust EA not to turn this into a p2w game? how long before a greedy EA executive enters a meeting with two big $ in his/her eyes?....guess time will tell.

[Cavell]

I get it - you hate EA and therefore don't trust them. I guess you don't believe that they made a Star Wars MMO with bioware either, since that was something EA said back when and you don't trust them.

 

Oh wait, where are we again?

 

 

Like I said, I have whats been said and shown on my side. You have your opinions on EA and your emotions.

 

My argument is more logical. Yours is more irrational and you don't care for reason.

 

Quite the stalemate, no?

 

I'm sorry, are you really trying to suggest there aren't countless examples of EA saying one thing and doing another, or leaving crucial information out when trying to sell a product?

 

Really?

 

EA didn't get voted the worst company in America recently because of its sterling reputation for integrity and consumer focus.

[Rikeryo]

Their answer was simple: any shift in staff they've made over the past few months has been to sort of rebuild the studio for this new F2P venture.

 

so basically we've been paying bioware for turning swtor into f2p while desperately waiting for new content they didn't plan to deliver in the first place. wow, we were idiots!

[ZionHalcyon]

If one thing said is true, that does not automatically mean everything said is/was true.

 

If one thing is false, that does not automatically mean everything said is/was false.

 

Btw... Bioware was developing this game for at least a full year before their parent Company was bought by EA in october 2007. They were developing this since at least march 2006.

 

The point remains - the model illustrated to us looks more like DDOs model than your example, and yet you refuse to believe it simply because of your distrust for EA. That is an emotional reason, not a logical one. They just announced F2P - they have no reason at this juncture to lie to anyone about how their model works. You don't think this F2P isn't of keen importance to their investors? They need to rebound their stock, and right now lying to their investors would be the worst mistake they could make. They aren't going to do it. EA may string players along and destroy some great companies, but they are straight with their investors.

 

There is no reason for them to lie here. People like you need to understand that EA is out to make money, not ruin your life. They aren't going to do something like Pay2Win that would put their enitre game at risk - not with an investment this big.

[HammersteinSW]

Wasn't Hickman the guy who helped run EA's other WoW-killer WAR into the ground?

 

You wanna know who Jeff Hickman is ? He was the guy in charge of costumer support for DAOC. And then he got somehow propelled into the role of a producer. Then he went to Mythic and somehow became executive producer there. Yes you heard right, a former head of customer support is now in charge of making an mmo.

 

Just another stone in the mosaic why WAR and Swtor failed, they hired the wrong guys.

[ZionHalcyon]

I'm sorry, are you really trying to suggest there aren't countless examples of EA saying one thing and doing another, or leaving crucial information out when trying to sell a product?

 

Really?

 

EA didn't get voted the worst company in America recently because of its sterling reputation for integrity and consumer focus.

 

EA was voted the worst company, yet has some of the best selling games.

 

Care to explain that one?

 

By the way, they don't lie to their investors. If they did, the wouldn't be in business right now.

 

And before you go there, understand you are a consumer, NOT an investor, no matter how self-entitled you are.

[davidpop]

DOES BIOWARE THINK F2P IS THE FUTURE?

 

I then asked Jeff and Matt if they knew now, what they had known then about the MMO market in the West, would SWTOR have been built as a F2P game to begin with? Their answer, in so many words was yes. They freely admitted that hindsight is 20/20, and that they were wrong in predicting the sub model would be perfect for SWTOR, because such things are difficult to gauge over the long multi-year pre-launch lifespan of a project as massive as an MMORPG. Both gentlemen agreed that they see the F2P and hybrid models as the way the market is going, and they feel that this change for SWTOR is reactive and timely to change now rather than later. Matt said, "We're reacting because the players want it this way. There are folks who have been telling us they want it F2P since trying it, since buying it, and they see the subscription as a needless barrier... and we agree. In general, consumers today want flexibility and we're going to give it to them."

 

Not if you make a good game its not, make you make a bad game like SWTOR, then yea f2p is probaly the way to go.

[ZionHalcyon]

You wanna know who Jeff Hickman is ? He was the guy in charge of costumer support for DAOC. And then he got somehow propelled into the role of a producer. Then he went to Mythic and somehow became executive producer there. Yes you heard right, a former head of customer support is now in charge of making an mmo.

 

Just another stone in the mosaic why WAR and Swtor failed, they hired the wrong guys.

 

Now THAT I won't argue. But at the same time, people dont make games for the fun of it - they need to be profitable and remain that way.

 

Hence I am ok with the F2P model. just wish they launched with it.

[Ganzor]

There is no reason for them to lie here.

 

Except the fact that if t hey came out and said "Yup, we're going pay to win and want to milk you for three times the subscription cost each month!" they wouldn't retain anybody.

[ZionHalcyon]

Except the fact that if t hey came out and said "Yup, we're going pay to win and want to milk you for three times the subscription cost each month!" they wouldn't retain anybody.

 

If they did that, the game wouldn't last a year and they know it.

 

You are just being paranoid.

[davidpop]

EA was voted the worst company, yet has some of the best selling games.

 

Care to explain that one?

 

By the way, they don't lie to their investors. If they did, the wouldn't be in business right now.

 

And before you go there, understand you are a consumer, NOT an investor, no matter how self-entitled you are.

 

Maybe because they hold so many licences, like the NFL and FIFA etc. and that moves unites.

 

Because where are their NBA games? Oh, thats right EA dont got exclusive right, and when 2k made a game that was better than EAs basketall games, they stopped making them.

[Cavell]

EA was voted the worst company, yet has some of the best selling games.

 

Care to explain that one?

 

By the way, they don't lie to their investors. If they did, the wouldn't be in business right now.

 

And before you go there, understand you are a consumer, NOT an investor, no matter how self-entitled you are.

Who said anything about lying to their investors? I didn't hear Goldman Sachs asking about Pay-To-Win in the conference call. As an aside, I did hear them getting hung up on when they questioned EA's subscriber counts.

 

Of course they're not going to tell us they're going to implement P2W. And of course they're going to do it. That's how you make a real profit off of F2P games. Hell, that's how EA makes a lot of profit off of a fair number of its singleplayer games. You're reassured by a couple of goons coming out and saying, "No, honestly, we've looked at other examples, and we know where to draw the line." I'm looking at EA's history in the game market and telling you you're being naive. Day One DLC, 'lifetime' expansion pack purchases while announcing a game's sequel a few weeks later, microtransactions to unlock content on games you've already purchased, etc.

[ZionHalcyon]

Maybe because they hold so many licences, like the NFL and FIFA etc. and that moves unites.

 

Because where are their NBA games? Oh, thats right EA dont got exclusive right, and when 2k made a game that was better than EAs basketall games, they stopped making them.

 

Show me an example where they lied to their INVESTORS.

 

And by that, I mean STOCKHOLDERS. If they don't own stock, the example doesn't count.

 

Show me, link it.

[Styxx]

Until it actually happens, there's no point flying off the handle swearing up and down that we WILL get screwed. What do you have to lose by taking the wait and see approach? There's a lot less anger/pouting involved.

 

I lose 15$ per month starting NOW, that`s what. Because, IF this happens, it`ll be at best around 3 to 6 months from now, assuming EA is actually not the EA I think it is and it`ll go "Full Troll" from day one. That is between 45 and 90$, ONLY to see their "hand".

[ZionHalcyon]

Who said anything about lying to their investors? I didn't hear Goldman Sachs asking about Pay-To-Win in the conference call. As an aside, I did hear them getting hung up on when they questioned EA's subscriber counts.

 

Of course they're not going to tell us they're going to implement P2W. And of course they're going to do it. That's how you make a real profit off of F2P games. Hell, that's how EA makes a lot of profit off of a fair number of its singleplayer games. You're reassured by a couple of goons coming out and saying, "No, honestly, we've looked at other examples, and we know where to draw the line." I'm looking at EA's history in the game market and telling you you're being naive. Day One DLC, 'lifetime' expansion pack purchases while announcing a game's sequel a few weeks later, microtransactions to unlock content on games you've already purchased, etc.

 

Hey Captain Paranoid. DDO and LOTRO are using the same model SWTOR is suggesting, and NEITHER of those games are Pay2Win, and BOTH of those games are the most successful models of F2P out there.

 

So try again, only this time, with less delusion.

[ProsaicProse]

Eh whatever brings in the big cash will find it's way into the store. If that ends up being "p2w" items, then that's what will happen. See, that's what worries me about the design focus here - it's gone from "making a good game people want to play" to "well, this game isn't doing so well, let's fleece players for as much money as we can while it lasts".

 

Dev time will be spent on whatever produces the most profit. By extension, anything that costs too much to make will be less desirable in that model, than things that require little time and effort to make. Fully voiced, storytelling in an MMO is expensive to make, game store items generally are not. What are they going to spend the dev time on? Cheap and easy - that's what. This is why f2p titles go bad and end up sucking.

Edited August 1, 2012 by ProsaicProse

[HammersteinSW]

EA was voted the worst company, yet has some of the best selling games.

 

Care to explain that one?

 

By the way, they don't lie to their investors. If they did, the wouldn't be in business right now.

 

And before you go there, understand you are a consumer, NOT an investor, no matter how self-entitled you are.

 

Their stock value is in free fall since December. Last year was a fiasco for them: Battlefield 3, while successful, was not anywhere as successful as CoD. Swtor is a financial disaster and I doubt f2p will change that, since there are better f2p games (GW2). The Mass Effect 3 endings shakeup also hurt consumer opinion about them and for this year's holiday season they have no real blockbusters ready. I bet their shareholders are nervous already.

Edited August 1, 2012 by HammersteinSW

[dankat]

Those touting DDO's model need to look at Turbine's other Pay 2 Win, LOTRO.

 

I can't speak for DDO since I haven't played it, bit as far as LOTRO goes, it's for sure pay to win.

 

Their announcement looked almost exactly like what bioware is going for here. Sub get "free" points for use in the store, etc. Turbine repeatedly assured there would be no advantage items in the store. That promise didn't make it out of BETA, and they've only got worse since.

 

I will not be a part of this nonsense again.

 

Give me ONE object from that store that directly gives you an advantage please.

[leathfuil]

Hey Captain Paranoid. DDO and LOTRO are using the same model SWTOR is suggesting, and NEITHER of those games are Pay2Win, and BOTH of those games are the most successful models of F2P out there.

 

So try again, only this time, with less delusion.

 

Again, it looks more like Age of Conan than any of Turbine's.

 

LotRO has three tiers of membership and subscribers retain much of what they gain if they downgrade to premium.

 

AoC only has two tiers and downgrading to the lower one costs you pretty much everything you may have gained as a subscriber.

[jediankh]

I'm just going to listen to grand master yoda on this. "All ways in motion, the future is."

[Cavell]

Hey Captain Paranoid. DDO and LOTRO are using the same model SWTOR is suggesting, and NEITHER of those games are Pay2Win, and BOTH of those games are the most successful models of F2P out there.

 

So try again, only this time, with less delusion.

 

If those are the most successful F2P models out there, no wonder everyone's worried. LOTRO saw a user jump, and is now back down to - or below - where it was when F2P was implemented. DDO I know little about, because, honestly, who's paying attention to the MMO with 50K players?

 

Tell you what: show me one statement from anyone related to the development of TOR where they guarantee there will not be Pay-To-Win. Go ahead. I'll wait.

 

Or I'll save you time and inform you that you won't find one anywhere.

[ZionHalcyon]

Again, it looks more like Age of Conan than any of Turbine's.

 

LotRO has three tiers of membership and subscribers retain much of what they gain if they downgrade to premium.

 

AoC only has two tiers and downgrading to the lower one costs you pretty much everything you may have gained as a subscriber.

 

Thats the one beef I admittedly have, but they also mentioned that you can buy content as a F2P person.

 

Its the one thing I am nervous about. If they offer the ability to purchase flashpoints and ops as a F2P player, then all is good. But if they don't, then I will agree that they dropped the ball.

[CorellianWannabe]

Hey Captain Paranoid. DDO and LOTRO are using the same model SWTOR is suggesting, and NEITHER of those games are Pay2Win, and BOTH of those games are the most successful models of F2P out there.

 

So try again, only this time, with less delusion.

 

And both of them went to f2p solely because it's a better business model, and because they were bleeding subs and would have closed down otherwise, right? If the sub model is so bad why was Bioware using it last December, after LotR had 'proven' how successful it is?

[Tyrias]

Hey Captain Paranoid. DDO and LOTRO are using the same model SWTOR is suggesting, and NEITHER of those games are Pay2Win, and BOTH of those games are the most successful models of F2P out there.

 

So try again, only this time, with less delusion.

 

Actually, being a player of LotRO also, I can tell you that there are elements of Pay2Win on the fringes of the store.

 

There are relics (and more importantly, really GOOD relics) that you can only get in the store. Better than what you can get in game.

 

There are store-only potions (morale, power, debuff removal) which are on a separate cooldown to normal potions (and their cooldown is massively shorter too).

 

Stat tomes, while "technically" available in-game are such an infrequent drop (and require you to have picked up a chain of such infrequent drops all the way up while leveling to actually be able to use something you drop from high level content) that I don't know anyone who's actually got to Rank 7 of one without buying them in the store (or having amassed and then spent more than a small fortune on them of in-game money).

 

When f2p came out for LotRO, it wasn't just the payment model that changed, but the general design ethos too. It felt like there was a lot of "lets make the grind big so we can stick things in the store to make it easier" going on. I don't expect this to be any different.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Tyrias