Executive Producer Rich Vogel Bails on TOR

[Soluss]

Game was 60$ and somewhere around 100$ for the improved edition.

 

But, as I pointed out earlier, EA/BW does not get that 60 bucks. Id be surprised if they got 30 of it.

[Soluss]

It was said they need a certain amount of game sales to "profit" with the game, and they did so when they sold over 2 million copies.

 

No, all they said is that they need to maintain atleast 500k subscriptions to show profit... that doesnt mean 1 month worth, or even 6. That means maintain them.

[Bellumpvp]

No, all they said is that they need to maintain atleast 500k subscriptions to show profit... that doesnt mean 1 month worth, or even 6. That means maintain them.

 

I agree however what Im saying is that because they sold 2 million copies it was able to cover what they expected to in their grand plans.

 

Im not saying all expenses were paid for, but in the finances and long term struture it was a success.

[DarthTHC]

I agree however what Im saying is that because they sold 2 million copies it was able to cover what they expected to in their grand plans.

 

Im not saying all expenses were paid for, but in the finances and long term struture it was a success.

 

What do you think that the 2,000,000 copies they sold covers? At best that's about $60,000,000 into EA/BioWare's bank account. What are you saying that covers?

 

Let's say you spend $3,000 buying stocks. You wait and hold those for 5 years and then you sell them for $60.

 

What does that do to "the finances and long term structure"? Was it a success?

Edited July 24, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Bellumpvp]

What do you think that the 2,000,000 copies they sold covers? At best that's about $60,000,000 into EA/BioWare's bank account. What are you saying that covers?

 

Let's say you spend $3,000 buying stocks. You wait and hold those for 5 years and then you sell them for $60.

 

What does that do to "the finances and long term structure"? Was it a success?

 

 

Well they figured if we can sell 2million copies on launch, then by 2015 with a preferred subcription basis of 500k we will have covered so and so costs etc..

[Soluss]

I agree however what Im saying is that because they sold 2 million copies it was able to cover what they expected to in their grand plans.

 

Im not saying all expenses were paid for, but in the finances and long term struture it was a success.

 

But it doesnt recover their cost man, it just doesnt. We know that they paid atleast 200 million dollars to make this game. Some speculate more, and I do to, but we know it isnt less.

 

Even if they got 60 bucks a sale... and they do not get anywhere near that but lets just say they do... thats only 120 mil

[Soluss]

Well they figured if we can sell 2million copies on launch, then by 2015 with a preferred subcription basis of 500k we will have covered so and so costs etc..

 

Do you believe they will hold 500k subscribers or better until atleast 2015? I dont think they have that now. I mean thats speculation but it sure doesnt seem they do logically.

[DarthTHC]

Well they figured if we can sell 2million copies on launch, then by 2015 with a preferred subcription basis of 500k we will have covered so and so costs etc..

 

Yes and an earlier post I wrote shows that if their expenses for running the game are $0, they need 27 months at 500k subs to approximately break even on development costs. 27 months from January 2012 (the first month they could charge for subs) is April 2015.

 

Expenses for running the game are not $0 so April 2015 is completely unrealistic.

 

They need to dramatically reduce ongoing expenses (and they are - 2 rounds of layoffs, shutting down 90% of the servers, and eliminating some very expensive management) and find a way to increase box sales (and they are - free to 15).

Edited July 24, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Celebrus]

No, all they said is that they need to maintain atleast 500k subscriptions to show profit... that doesnt mean 1 month worth, or even 6. That means maintain them.

 

Actually, they never said they needed 500k to profit, they said they needed 500k for the game to be "sustainable" which really means that 500k is their absolute bottom line for the number of subs that this game needs to keep afloat.

 

Theres a difference between being profitable and just being able to keep the lights on, ask a small business owner, they could explain it.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Celebrus

[Soluss]

Actually, they never said they needed 500k to profit, they said they needed 500k for the game to be "sustainable" which really means that 500k is their absolute bottom line for the number of subs that this game needs to keep afloat.

 

Theres a difference between being profitable and just being able to keep the lights on, ask a small business owner, they could explain it.

 

Yeah, I understand that. It's just easier to say profit sometimes but yes, you are correct.

[Celebrus]

I'll do my best! :-)

 

There were a lot of negative points gleaned from http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game...ic-swtor-show/, but the commentators made the point that despite the glitches, layoffs, and subscription drops, they were enjoying the play very much, more than ever.

 

I'm not convinced, maybe you'll come back for another attempt, if so I'm hoping for a better showing the second time around.

 

This is the same game that I had at launch. Nothing is really better, different, or noticeably improved from the first month of play other than the nagging annoyance that Ilum pvp dailies were. The difference between now and the last four months? People. Thats it. Literally the only thing they did right the last six months was merge servers down to 10% of what they had at launch.

 

They added a single FP and single OP and WZ which were probably mostly wrapped up before the game launched, and then added a group finder 6 months too late. If people are enjoying the play "more than they ever have" it is probably because they didn't play at launch and have been on a dead server for the last few months. I'd like a few examples or reasons to explain why people are enjoying it so much and so suddenly, because there is no indication from the outside looking in that anything significant has changed other than the population problem which had to reach a critical point before they even acted on it.

 

Nothing indicates a positive future for SWToR in the short term. It's going to be one boring summer/fall on this game, I sure hope theres a light at the end of the tunnel for the few faithful clingers-on that will remain.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Celebrus

[Andryah]

Yes and an earlier post I wrote shows that if their expenses for running the game are $0, they need 27 months at 500k subs to approximately break even on development costs. 27 months from January 2012 (the first month they could charge for subs) is April 2015.

 

You completely DO NOT understand how development costs are handled by corporations. Product development costs are carried as a capital investment, which is then depreciated over a period of years (usually 3-5). It is the depreciation where the company actually accrues the costs (on a tax deductable basis, so actual sunk cost will be much lower in terms of the bottom line to the company). There IS NO DIRECT TIE to revenue earned from the completed product (either point of sale, or subscriptions) to the investment (sunk cost). Capital investments are treated and handled separate and distinct from revenue on operations years later, as far as companies are concerned. This is essentially a sunk development cost for any product in any company.

 

So please everyone, stop trying to make the silly connection between investment cost and operations revenue as the basis for profit determinations (and especiallyt operations costs) for a corporation. This is not the way it is done.

 

Expenses for running the game are not $0 so April 2015 is completely unrealistic.

 

True on the first part, completely wrong on the second point. Expenses to run the game after launch are part of operations expenses AND this component of costs IS part of the P&L basis of cost/revenue for reporting and tax purposes.

 

They need to dramatically reduce ongoing expenses (and they are - 2 rounds of layoffs, shutting down 90% of the servers, and eliminating some very expensive management) and find a way to increase box sales (and they are - free to 15).

 

All companies work on what i called an operating plan. It is a plan that establishes a forecast of revenue and asserts an operations cost plan in accordance. Most of the cost of operations is labor for a software company that produces soft products like an MMO.

 

Plans change over time, for a variety of reasons. When operations costs are above plan OR when revenue results are below plan, you have a plan imbalance and you are issued a "task" to correct it. This is corporate planning and adjustment 101. They replanned for the half year point because their revenue results were not in line with plans, hence they needed to reduce their operations cost (ie: address the "task").

 

Operations replans and changes will continue for a company as long as a product is in production (in this case an MMO that is live). May go up, may go down, true for all MMO companies in fact.

 

Observation: The MMO customer base is fickle in the post 2010 era. It is also a customer base in decline. So all MMO companies are going to struggle in their operations plans for the forseeable future. In EAs case, they are heavily diversified beyond MMOs, so it will have little impact +/- to their operations, but it will have an impact on their MMO division (hence continued operations replanning tasks). If there was less fickleness, and more loyalty in the MMO player base (like there used to be before WoW peaked a few years ago) MMO divisions such as Bioware would not be as broadly impacted in their operations. Unfortunately for Bioware SWTOR is pretty much the current red headed stepchild of MMOs to beaten, abused, and panned by the fickle MMO community of 2012.

 

As your fickleness as MMO players increases, your negative impact on MMO producers will increase. Perhaps to the point someday when all but the few niche MMOs (where there is player loyalty) are gone. As a community MMO players are imploding and destroying their own game genre in the process.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Andryah

[Soluss]

Observation: The MMO customer base is fickle in the post 2010 era. It is also a customer base in decline. So all MMO companies are going to struggle in their operations plans for the forseeable future. In EAs case, they are heavily diversified beyond MMOs, so it will have little impact +/- to their operations, but it will have an impact on their MMO division (hence continued operations replanning tasks). If there was less fickleness, and more loyalty in the MMO player base (like there used to be before WoW peaked a few years ago) MMO divisions such as Bioware would not be as broadly impacted in their operations. Unfortunately for Bioware SWTOR is pretty much the current red headed stepchild of MMOs to beaten, abused, and panned by the fickle MMO community of 2012.

 

As your fickleness as MMO players increases, your negative impact on MMO producers will increase. Perhaps to the point someday when all but the few niche MMOs are gone. As as community MMO players are imploding and destroying their own game genre in the process.

 

So what you are basically saying is... its all our fault why MMOs bomb? We should all be happy to pay and continue to pay for a game that doesnt keep us entertained?

[DarthTHC]

As your fickleness as MMO players increases, your negative impact on MMO producers will increase. Perhaps to the point someday when all but the few niche MMOs (where there is player loyalty) are gone. As a community MMO players are imploding and destroying their own game genre in the process.

 

It is the game's responsibility to keep player engaged.

 

It is not the players' responsibility to support a game that does not keep them engaged.

 

I'm the customer. If you want my money, you have to entertain me far more than you frustrate me.

 

The real problem here is that the MMO community has had its expectations set. WoW is the baseline. Anything less than WoW in terms of entertainment value and quality of life features will have a really rough go of it. SWTOR is far, far less than WoW in terms of quality of life features and behind WoW for entertainment value.

[Andryah]

So what you are basically saying is... its all our fault why MMOs bomb? We should all be happy to pay and continue to pay for a game that doesnt keep us entertained?

 

Actually, I am saying you are part of the problem, rather then part of the solution.

 

In fact, given the lack of patience and loyalty to the product, you are a liability to the game, will always be a liability to the game and should quit the game and go find your holy grail MMO (which does not exist of course, so you will attack and criticise every game you play and demand more for your 50 cents a day then you deserve).

[DarthTHC]

Actually, I am saying you are part of the problem, rather then part of the solution.

 

In fact, given the lack of patience and loyalty to the product, you are a liability to the game, will always be a liability to the game and should quit the game and go find your holy grail MMO (which does not exist of course, so you will attack and criticise every game you play and demand more for your 50 cents a day then you deserve).

 

Wow. I hope I never do business with whichever company is foolish enough to employ you!

[Andryah]

It is the game's responsibility to keep player engaged.

 

It is not the players' responsibility to support a game that does not keep them engaged.

 

I'm the customer. If you want my money, you have to entertain me far more than you frustrate me.

 

The real problem here is that the MMO community has had its expectations set. WoW is the baseline. Anything less than WoW in terms of entertainment value and quality of life features will have a really rough go of it. SWTOR is far, far less than WoW in terms of quality of life features and behind WoW for entertainment value.

 

WoW is not a baseline, it's an aberation that ultimately inflated the MMO population and you are watching it implode with self-appointed disappointments of the community on the producer.

 

Play a game if you like a game. Don't play it if you don't like it. You however are a perpetual complainer and demander on these forums. You know, and I know it. At least have the honesty and courage to own up to it and stop talking like it's ALL on the game producer. It's not. It requires both the game producer and the player to make an fulfilling engagement experience. Frankly, you complain too much to enjoy the game IMO, yet you stay on and complain and complain and complain in the forums about a game you apparently don't enjoy. What's up with that???

[Andryah]

Wow. I hope I never do business with whichever company is foolish enough to employ you!

 

I hope so too. You are not a good customer IMO.

[CosmicKat]

It is the game's responsibility to keep player engaged.

 

It is not the players' responsibility to support a game that does not keep them engaged.

 

I'm the customer. If you want my money, you have to entertain me far more than you frustrate me.

 

The real problem here is that the MMO community has had its expectations set. WoW is the baseline. Anything less than WoW in terms of entertainment value and quality of life features will have a really rough go of it. SWTOR is far, far less than WoW in terms of quality of life features and behind WoW for entertainment value.

 

Actually, the WoW community is NOT the MMO community, it's the WoW community. The rest of the game developers keep trying to make a new MMO to steal the WoW customers but they haven't figured out yet that those people don't want an MMO, they want WoW. Once the developers figure out that millions of people want anything except WoW, we can all be happy.

 

Till then, it's just make do with what is out there and hope the industry survives and recovers from that horrible blizzard that hit several years ago.

[Soluss]

Actually, I am saying you are part of the problem, rather then part of the solution.

 

In fact, given the lack of patience and loyalty to the product, you are a liability to the game, will always be a liability to the game and should quit the game and go find your holy grail MMO (which does not exist of course, so you will attack and criticise every game you play and demand more for your 50 cents a day then you deserve).

 

Wow... you just know sooo much about me dont you? Im part of the problem instead of the solution lets see.....Considering that I continue to pay for a subscription that I rarely use, in hopes that this game turns around, I fail to see that being a problem.

 

I dont attack this game at all. Do I criticise it? Yes, without criticism then games never get better.

 

You somehow think you are the answer by just playing and defending a game?

 

What exactly is part of a solution? All we do is either pay and play the game or cancel. Its up to the Developer to keep us here. At best the only thing we can do is tell them what would keep us here or tell them why we left....which is the critisim you are against.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Soluss

[MasterKayote]

This is all EA, IMO. Theyre not doing well with all their games or as a company in general ... their stocks plumeted so theyre gutting everything. The highest paid jobs. Theyve already shown to be the biggest pos in gaming ATM, one of the worst companies to work for, and thats saying a lot seeing as how they mainly offer one of the most sought after "dream job" industries ever.

 

This is typical of companies like this ...

 

1) lay off your highest paid positions

2) fill them with trash who'd do it for pennies

3)...

4) John Ricci'aholes pockets stay just as heavy as they were when stock values were higher when he should be the one paying for it most.

 

Thats all thats going on here.

 

They reported having 1.3 million active subs just a few months ago. Yeah, its not progress from 1.7, but its still probably the second most subbed to MMO in the US and FAR from warranting so many lay offs. I myself am seeing many new players, and friends returning. I would even say the game has picked up a bit with the more populated servers and the free trials bringing in more subs.

 

Also, it seems to me the media is just capitalizing on the lay offs yelling "doooooom" throughout the internet when the only fact they have is the actual lay offs. Eveything else is blowing smoke and "what if's"

 

Only negativity ive seen lately is the lay offs and the typical forum troll that likes to pay to qq because "there is nothing to do." As if there was another MMO out there that has anything different. There isnt. Theyre all same same ... theyre MMOs. Yet at the same time ive been seeing quite a few return posts as well as "newbies."

 

I always thought if this game fails, itll be EA ... and there it is. Freakin HATE EA! Seriously hope I live to see the day they go out of business.

[Bellumpvp]

Wow. I hope I never do business with whichever company is foolish enough to employ you!

 

Honestly I wont be gaming TOR for very long if they keep this structure up. Space combat? Meh. Warzones? Meh. Flashpoints/operations? Meh.

 

Its missing a few fun factors that other mmos have. Hell people played SWG for 10 years and it had no pvp warzones and no raiding.

[Soluss]

Honestly I wont be gaming TOR for very long if they keep this structure up. Space combat? Meh. Warzones? Meh. Flashpoints/operations? Meh.

 

Its missing a few fun factors that other mmos have. Hell people played SWG for 10 years and it had no pvp warzones and no raiding.

 

To be fair SWG had a very small subscriber base... it was around 200k before the NGE hit.

[DarthTHC]

WoW is not a baseline, it's an aberation that ultimately inflated the MMO population and you are watching it implode with self-appointed disappointments of the community on the producer.

 

Play a game if you like a game. Don't play it if you don't like it. You however are a perpetual complainer and demander on these forums. You know, and I know it. At least have the honesty and courage to own up to it and stop talking like it's ALL on the game producer. It's not. It requires both the game producer and the player to make an fulfilling engagement experience. Frankly, you complain too much to enjoy the game IMO, yet you stay on and complain and complain and complain in the forums about a game you apparently don't enjoy. What's up with that???

 

WoW is the baseline. It's what over 12,000,000 MMO players have come to expect. They will compare any game they play to WoW. If the game lacks features that WoW has and doesn't add unique, compelling enough features to overcome that deficiency, players will not play the new game. Want proof? Look at this one.

 

Yep, I'm a demander on these forums. That's what a customer should do. I pays my money, I asks for stuff. I asked for stuff during game test, so did a lot of us, and the devs never did it. Lo and behold, when more and paying customers asked for the same stuff post-launch, it happened!

 

If we as consumers were content with whatever companies wanted to hand us, we'd never see any improvements. There would be no power windows. There would be no air conditioning. There would be no HDTV. Our average ISP speed would be 1/3 of that available in South Korea. (Wait, that last one is a bad example.)

 

So as a player, yes, I'm engaged. Both as a paying customer and an active participant on the forums, providing feedback to the service provider I pays my moneys to. How much more engaged could I be, really, as a customer?

Edited July 24, 2012 by DarthTHC

[DarthTHC]

I hope so too. You are not a good customer IMO.

 

What's your definition of a good customer? One who pays whatever the company asks and never asks for anything more than the company gives, even if they shovel 60 day old manure on you day after day?

Edited July 24, 2012 by DarthTHC