Executive Producer Rich Vogel Bails on TOR

[Blackardin]

I dont know what you are talking about. UO was awesome when it came out. How could you say anyone thought it was aweful? Hell they still have around 300k users (maybe more than swtor now?) after 12 years and counting. UO was incredible the best game out at the time period. The only reason people moved to EQ was because EQ was 3D while UO was 2D.

 

Wait, Wha?

[Blackardin]

Or it could be the Back Street Boys was that much better than the The Who. Which I think they are. /QUOTE]

 

Wait, Wha?

[Blackardin]

Especially that Beeth-Oven dude. Saw him in San Dimas Mall once, he was totally excellent!

 

Dood.

 

You are making altogether too much sense in this thread....and this was just plain hilarious. ;p

[Spectus]

If I read you correctly, you are saying...

1) TOR forum posters over react.

2) TOR forum posters leap to the worst possible scenario all the time.

3) MMO forum posters are generally highly cynical whiners.

4) MMO players a have seriously inflated sense of entitlement and unerealistic expectations of what $15/month buys.

 

This is pure madness I say!

CosmicKat wins teh Internetz!

[Goretzu]

People leaving after a game is released is normal. Their primary job is done. Only indie developers seem to keep their staff forever.

 

A load of Blizzard's developers left when the game was half finished to start up their own project, which is why the old content is very different from the new. Then another wave left half way through wotlk, when the quality of the game took a big nose dive. Then they laid off a few 100 people at the beginning of the year after their subscriptions took a nose dive...

 

 

 

The issue is how complere the game is and if they replace them.

 

 

For example in WAR one of its major problems, that it could never beat, was that EA started the developer lay offs in Beta and never stopped. The game could never get its feet under itself, and instead had a stumbling head long run off a cliff.

 

WoW on the other hand was pretty complete at release, mostly just a few server issues and end game, the levelling game was pretty complete and had MASSIVE depth and expanse.

[HammersteinSW]

Vogel being gone is actually a good thing for the game:

 

Remember that Rich Vogel was the guy behind the NGE which broke SWG. He is firmly stuck in the mindset that 2004 WoW was the pinnacle of mmo design.

 

Here's another gem of his from the Montreal game convention some years ago:

Vogel says MMOG owners do well to admit their mistakes. “Win over your community so that they are forgiving of you when you really screw up,” he said. He also gave some advice about distracting the players when making a change to the game, not answering controversies that arise, as it just feeds them, and not taking too seriously the forum rants of hardcore players, who don't represent the silent majority. You can get feedback from the quieter majority, however, by simply administering surveys. However, the hardcore, verbal players are the people who generate word of mouth marketing, Vogel admits, “so keep them happy, too.”

 

Look at his statement - the weeks of silence we often get concerning important issues are definitely his handwriting.

 

Now Vogel joined Bioware 7 years ago and immediately continued his dream of a Star Wars WoW - while completely ignoring any progress mmos made in the last 7 years. All the quality of life improvements of late mmos were not part of Swtor on launch, and then they wondered why a game based on a 2005 design would not captivate a subscriber base from 2012.

 

For us as a community this might be the best thing ever, since maybe someone who actually understands modern mmo design and loves Star Wars as much as we do will take over.

Edited July 22, 2012 by HammersteinSW

[Jmann_]

while completely ignoring any progress mmos made in the last 7 years. All the quality of life improvements of late mmos were not part of Swtor on launch, and then they wondered why a game based on a 2005 design would not captivate a subscriber base from 2012.

 

For us as a community this might be the best thing ever, since maybe someone who actually understands modern mmo design and loves Star Wars as much as we do will take over.

 

AMEN!! I could cry, I'm so disappointed at how Bio/EA are wasting this opportunity to create a living breathing Star Wars MMO. As it stands it is a stagnant constrictive theme park co-op SPRPG. Things must change, for the sake of this "Community" and for the sake of Adult Star Wars gaming.

[Graveside]

My two cents: He left before he was forced to leave a.k.a. "YOU'RE FIRED". The game was not a hit, it was a hit prior to launch yes, but it lacked effective testing, effective future planning, effective compliance of overall workings.

 

I remember reading during beta testing, the developers saying a beta tester was using a force knock-back to knock NPC's off the mountain for over an hour. They stated they were surprised by this...OMG seriously. Developers and Managers need to change their mind set about games. If there is an exploit, it will be exploited some how some way. If you make a game to easy to acquire PvP gear faster and as good if not better than PvE gear; guess what the majority will rush to that type of gear, saves them hours on end of doing instances and trying to get a random piece of gear.

 

This game has some great ideas, but to many failures for a 2012 MMO; IMO 200+ Million should of saw things that many players would of liked housing, three factions, instancing and raiding with a group finder, balanced pvp/pve gear (not this PvP gear ******** - that swamped the servers in the first 3 weeks of the game)

 

In the end Bio's developers just didn't change from the standard WoW developers, they tried to piggy back off them just like all others MMO's have in the past 6 years. R.I.P. - SW:TOR your days are limited before F2P comes with ads and item store, so EA/Bio hope to recover some of their loses.

[Blackardin]

 

WoW on the other hand was pretty complete at release, mostly just a few server issues and end game, the levelling game was pretty complete and had MASSIVE depth and expanse.

 

Wait, Wha?

[Blackardin]

In the movie business the executive producer is the money guy, the get-funding guy, the schmoozer, the day-to-day business guy that deals with all the NON artistic stuff. If the product is finished, I'm not surehow valuable the producer would be. At this point, it's updates and programming. If the artistic or head engineer quit, I'd be a little more concerned.

 

Thank you.

 

Part of the problem with this board (or any game board) is that people tend to just take information and run with it without every first knowing what it means. in short, believing that they know more then they do. Players that believe, because they've been, "playing video games for 15 years" that they are honorary developers are yet another symptom of this phenomenon.

[Blackardin]

For us as a community this might be the best thing ever, since maybe someone who actually understands modern mmo design and loves Star Wars as much as we do will take over.

 

This is a very good point. Unfortunate that it is lost in the banter and doom-saying. His previous projects were horrible and he may very well have been the reason that many of the problems exist as he appears to be quite controlling. Who really knows if he was interfering with the artistic design of the game and holding it back. Who knows if we are actually getting exactly what those players that are complaining about want?

[Goretzu]

Wait, Wha?

 

Exactly what I said.

 

Compared to anything around at the time it was very polished on release, and except for server issues and bugs on the US release it was pretty good (by EU release 3 months later the were gone).

 

Content wise it had a vast amount for levelling (easily 2x if not 3x as much as SWTOR released with).

 

Its only weakness was the end game, but the vast majority of people didn't get to that very quickly as although it was much quicker to level than say EQ1 vanilla, it was still much harder than say SWTOR or LORTO.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Goretzu

[Goretzu]

This is a very good point. Unfortunate that it is lost in the banter and doom-saying. His previous projects were horrible and he may very well have been the reason that many of the problems exist as he appears to be quite controlling. Who really knows if he was interfering with the artistic design of the game and holding it back. Who knows if we are actually getting exactly what those players that are complaining about want?

 

Wait, Wha?

[Blackardin]

Exactly what I said.

 

Compared to anything around at the time it was very polished on release, and except for server issues and bugs on the US release it was pretty good (by EU release 3 months later the were gone).

 

Content wise it had a vast amount for levelling (easily 2x if not 3x as much as SWTOR released with).

 

Its only weakness was the end game, but the vast majority of people didn't get to that very quickly as although it was much quicker to level than say EQ1 vanilla, it was still much harder than say SWTOR or LORTO.

 

You can go back and read the posts from their forums if you wish to remember.

 

The AH was broken, quest were broken, people were falling through the world, items were vanishing, mobs attacking through walls, path pathing was horrid, leveling dungeons were either over or under tuned, no end game at all, rogues and warriors were so broken they were not really playable. PvP was a mess. Pallys were invincible but could not kill a fly, they were also useless in dungeons except for off-healing, Shaman were just plain invincible. Crafting was a mess with no items of use...and the list goes on.

 

That list goes on because it was an MMORPG and that is the basic formula for MMORPGs, usually under stress and time constraints to launch as pre-launch funding is limited. The post was not to compare, or to disparage Wow but to demonstrate how little we tend to know about how the genre actually functions. The game needs to get out the door, start gaining funding so as to provide for all the fixes that would kill the game (remember Horizons trying to launch complete?) if done with development funding.

 

Its just the way it is.

[Blackardin]

Wait, Wha?

 

Lets be original here. ;p

[Goretzu]

Lets be original here. ;p

 

What, wai?

 

 

You can go back and read the posts from their forums if you wish to remember.

 

The AH was broken, quest were broken, people were falling through the world, items were vanishing, mobs attacking through walls, path pathing was horrid, leveling dungeons were either over or under tuned, no end game at all, rogues and warriors were so broken they were not really playable. PvP was a mess. Pallys were invincible but could not kill a fly, they were also useless in dungeons except for off-healing, Shaman were just plain invincible. Crafting was a mess with no items of use...and the list goes on.

 

That list goes on because it was an MMORPG and that is the basic formula for MMORPGs, usually under stress and time constraints to launch as pre-launch funding is limited. The post was not to compare, or to disparage Wow but to demonstrate how little we tend to know about how the genre actually functions. The game needs to get out the door, start gaining funding so as to provide for all the fixes that would kill the game (remember Horizons trying to launch complete?) if done with development funding.

 

Its just the way it is.

 

I never fell through the world any more or less than I had in EQ1, DAoC, AC, AO etc.

I never had any more trouble with the AH then was those of the above that had them at that time either.

 

Class balance was far from perfect, but then it wasn't in EQ1 or DAoC or AO at the time either.

 

PvP? If you remember EQ1 PvP you'll remmeber WoW was balance incarnate compared to that.

 

 

It was pretty decent once it got over the intial server issues compared to the mature games of the time, compared to itself 7 years later? No. But the MMO world had literally become something else by then.

[Sammennn]

I find it hilarious that the moderator closed down the Gamebreaker episode-topic and advised to discuss THAT subject in this "Vogel bails on TOR" topic.

 

Just hilarious.

[blinkwise]

Yeah closing the other topic was bad moderation. This isn't the same topic and I was in the middle of replying to the other post but it won't make any sense here

[SithVeritas]

Pretty much. Maybe the whole point was to get us to stop talking about it

[Maltuvion]

rogues and warriors were so broken they were not really playable.

 

What are you on about? Warriors and Rogues were arguably the two most overpowered classes vanilla due to their inanely powerful scaling. Plus Warriors were the only viable tanks. Warriors in particular were monstrously powerful dps in Vanilla, particularly with AQ40+ gear. I won't sugarcoat vanilla WoW as it had alot of problems (like debuff limit on boss, Warriors + Rogues + Hunters + Mages being only truly viable dps etc), but what you are stating is factually wrong.

 

Regarding Paladins they were very, very, very much wanted for their healing. Several paladins were a stable throughout all raid content, all the way from MC to Naxxramas.

 

no end game at all,

 

Yeah, not like PvP grind to High Warlord/Grand Marshal and several raids (MC, BWL, AQ40, AQ20, Zul'Gurub Naxxramas) existed just in Vanilla, each of them individually incorporating far more bosses than any of our current SWTOR content does (EV is 5, despite Pylons and Infernal Council are walk-overs and can hardly be deemed actual fights, KP is 5 as well but only after a patch expanding it, Denova is 4). Current SWTOR content is pathetically short, simplified and easy. It's nothing short of disturbing that this is all we've got over 7 months after release.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Maltuvion

[CritasStorm]

the Mod moved us here , when this thread really does not talk about most of what my thread was talking about.

 

Their is and old expression.

 

Where their is smoke their is Fire.

[Emeda]

I find it hilarious that the moderator closed down the Gamebreaker episode-topic and advised to discuss THAT subject in this "Vogel bails on TOR" topic.

 

Just hilarious.

 

Its so people wont be able to post in the closed one and if they see this thread that they already read they wont bother with it.

 

Funny that they will combine threads like these that have nothing in common really but will leave some threads out that say good things about SWTOR

[Celebrus]

The AH was broken, quest were broken, people were falling through the world, items were vanishing, mobs attacking through walls, path pathing was horrid, leveling dungeons were either over or under tuned, no end game at all, rogues and warriors were so broken they were not really playable. PvP was a mess. Pallys were invincible but could not kill a fly, they were also useless in dungeons except for off-healing, Shaman were just plain invincible. Crafting was a mess with no items of use...and the list goes on.

 

I guess having two functional and available fourty man raids counts has having "no end game at all". By the way, look up "Roguecraft", I remember killing geared mages on my mostly naked rogue with vendor quality daggers. Unplayable, right? PvP was fun, it was enjoyable, it was good times, it just didn't have a pvp stat, which to MMO newbies makes it "lame" or "a mess".

 

Were things perfect? No, but despite all of these things, Blizzard kept a passion for the game and made things work, by the end of the first year, the game was improved in many ways, there were new raids, new dungeons, battlegrounds, and so on. Subscriptions were trending up, word of mouth was positive, and the game was being seen as something new, something which was bringing change to a stagnating genre. The same cannot be said, in any of those categories, for SWToR.

 

The difference here is that BW has no passion left for this game, people seem to be losing interest from the top down, and thats really when a game starts to die. When the developers and leads of a project begin to lose their passion for creating a given project, it ceases to improve and grow.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Celebrus

[Typeslice]

Its so people wont be able to post in the closed one and if they see this thread that they already read they wont bother with it.

 

Funny that they will combine threads like these that have nothing in common really but will leave some threads out that say good things about SWTOR

 

Did you bother watching the video in other thread or just read the OPs summary? There was no new information in the video, and they continually said in the video that the game will survive and that it's poised to be a great game by the end of the year.

[Sammennn]

Did you bother watching the video in other thread or just read the OPs summary? There was no new information in the video, and they continually said in the video that the game will survive and that it's poised to be a great game by the end of the year.

 

Still has nothing to do with this topic.