Mercenaries ranked for utility against other classes

[cortea]

I think you are being a tad bit harsh here.

 

Flash Bang stuns 5 targets for 8 secs at 10m range on a 60 sec CD but damage breaks it.

Debilitate stuns 1 target for 4 secs at 4m range and does 312-344 base damage.

 

These are the metrics I'm using: number of targets, duration of stun, range, length of cool down, breaks on damage. I did not invent them out of nothing

 

Nobody is suggesting you are making up the mechanics. What we are telling you is that you are making up the weightings. To value one as 2, and another as 5 is completely subjective.

 

Take your exact example. on a 1 on 1 fight debilitate is far more useful to burst someone down. But then if a person has used their CC breaker and you don't have dots on them and you have heal utility, flashbang is better since it allows you to get 2-5 heals off. If your goal is to stop a group of people from capping flash bang is more powerful. If you want to stun a ball carrier so he can't pass until he dies, debilitate is better.

 

Any weighting you give is going to be subjective, even within like abilities. But you've also gone and weighted debilitate against a personal shield cooldown, force sprint, and single target and aoe knockbacks! When it's impossible to accurately weight two similar abilities, what chance do you have to weight stark utility. None, is the answer.

 

There is absolutely no question. your numbers are made up. they are subjective. the numbers themselves are actually useless (other than telling us how you personally generalise the value of utility). It's useful as a list of the utility classes have for sure. And what would be more useful would to indicate on like abilities which ones are unquestionably stronger (say a 1.5s stun versus a 4 second stun), or in the cases like debilitate vs flashbang strengths and weaknesses.

 

It's not math though, and it doesn't prove anything. It's opinion with made up numbers next to it.

Edited July 18, 2012 by cortea

[Canis_Anubis]

Arbitrary and made up numbers are hardly maths.

 

Exactly this. Look, asymmetry makes direct numeric comparisons of 'utility' totally subjective and worthless. What is the 'utility' of being able to inflict your full DPS rotation at a range of 30 meters? Or the utility of having one of the only two in-combat, universal crowd control abilities in the game?

 

If you want to make a point that the Mercenary doesn't measure up, do so based on actual in-game math.

[fujeo-finel]

This is a really interesting idea. Can you elaborate a bit more on it?

 

I did calculate a baseline for each attribute which is published in the PDF, however the positive and negative modifiers I applied do always result in a positive number. Are you talking about just shifting the scale from 0-100 to -50 to +50 or something else?

 

Wish I could, but I'm not that smart. Well, beyond just taking the median and assigning that as 0 anyway.

Edited July 18, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Macroecon]

Absolutely (20% armor pen is huge), when you're not only buffing your own dps but the dps of every other class. The dps increase is worth half the difference between a tier of gear. That is huge.

 

No it isn't. Because of the declining marginal benefit to armor, there is an increasing marginal benefit to armor reduction. Thus the 90% armor pen for PT RS is worth MORE than 4.5x a 20% armor pen. But it's clear that numbers and logic aren't going to change your view. So I suggest you bring your Arsenal Merc out and ask to join a ranked wz team. How'd that work out for you?

 

I see you're problem. You're comparing yourself with a Sorc. That's hilarious....I can no longer take you seriously if you think BH knockbacks aren't a huge strength of the class. Try playing some other classes some time. You might appreciate what you have.

 

What's hilarious is that you think ranged dps should not compare themselves with other ranged dps to see if there is a relative balance between them. And I play plenty of other classes, with 6 different level 50 toons. Do I appreciate what I have with Merc dps? I appreciate that when I score 750k of damage with a Merc, I did it with the weakest subclass in the game. But unlike you, I don't kid myself into believing that my subclass is just fine. I also put up 520k damage and 80k healing in my third match on a Marauder (no prior sub 50 pvp experience) in basically full Recruit gear. With no stims, no adrenals and while entering the match 2 min late. That should give you an idea how big of a subclass imbalance exists once player skill is controlled for. Merc dps is hands down the worst dps subclass in the game. And you claiming that Merc dps has good utility is just laughable.

[Soljin]

Sorc KB applies a root when specced...This can get a mellee killed.

 

Merc KB when specced applies a snare...This can give a mellee more resource, or a DMG proc...when they instantly use a gap closer on you after they are Knocked Back....See the difference?

[Werdan]

Absolutely, when you're not only buffing your own dps but the dps of every other class. The dps increase is worth half the difference between a tier of gear. That is huge.

 

FYI 20% armor pren (it's actually armor reduction in case you didn't know) on a player with 5950 armor roughly translates to them having ~5% less damage reduction (before any expertise, defenses or defense cooldowns). While this might seem acceptable for PvE, it means nothing in PvP for a group. If you're going to get focused in PvP you're going to die anyway and you have to spend another 4.5s to reapply a full stack on another SINGLE target. That "group utility" isn't very effecient.

 

I see you're problem. You're comparing yourself with a Sorc. That's hilarious.

 

Sorcs of equal skill level can crap all over Mercs, especially Arsenal specced ones, while still providing way better utility.

 

We have 5 aoe attacks, 3 of which can be used while on the move, and two of which are spammable. That provides utility that other classes only dream of.

 

Sweeping Blasters (high heat), Flamethrower (high heat) and DFA (not as good as it used to be) are channeled abiliies. Both are easily avoidable with their ground targets. You can't spam DFA/Flamethrower and if you even try with SB you're going to overheat pretty quickly. Missile Blast does mediocre single target damage and laughable AOE splash damage not to mention high heat cost with no added benefit. If you're spamming this you really don't know how to play Merc. Explosive Dart AOE splash damage can be avoidable (Thermal Det does way better single target damage) and can't be spammed. Fusion Missile (high heat) does very good AOE but splash damage is avoidable. Can only be used as an instant cast every 2 minutes with Power Surge. As a mostly instant cast Pyro, most of my damage is single target. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been outdamaged by an Arsenal/Gunnery spec in the thousands of matches I've played.

 

 

I can no longer take you seriously if you think BH knockbacks aren't a huge strength of the class. Try playing some other classes some time. You might appreciate what you have

.

 

Rocket Punch is only good if the target is near the edge where they can fall back into. It also adds fairly decent amount of resolve. Against classes than can resist tech damage as a defense CD, both the damge and KB are useless. Jet Boost adds way too much resolve. Both are near useless on flat surfaces against players with gap closers and their distances can be shortened by objects (lol at stairs/ramps).

 

That said, Pyro can be beast damage wise but still lacks a ton of utility when compared to other classes. If I see an Arsenal/Gunnery spec Merc/Comm I usually aim for them first as they are easy kills on all my toons.

[dcgregorya]

I recently wrote an article for Toroz.com.au that mathematically compares Merc utility against 14 other tank and dps builds and ranks them. Would love to mount a case for change based on metrics & numbers and looking for input and ideas on what could realistically be done to effectively balance our class.

 

Would also welcome any theory-crafters out there with suggestions and feedback on the maths - inaccuracies, improvements etc...

 

http://toroz.com.au/2012/07/the-third-edge-mercenarycommando-interrupts-utility/#comments

 

Explain to me how, exactly, a vigilance guardian has 0 CC? AOE mez not worth anything? And how is a conceal operative a pariah of PVP utility? What exactly is it that they have that is so good? There's no way a merc's concussive round is worth 1.5 points or less apparently while stealth scan is worth 4. This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever read.

 

And taunts didn't make the list?

 

If we want to make it much more fair lets do it like this:

 

Arsenal Merc

---------------------

Knockback x2, one short on a very short cooldown and one long AOE - 6 + 3 = 9 points

Combat Mez - 5 points

Combat Rez - 5 points

Ranged Hard stun - 7 points

Armor Debuff - 5 points

Cleanse - 5 points

2x Heal - 7 points (4 + 3 for short + long respectively)

Ranged Slow - 3 points

"Free" self heal x2 - 2 points

Insta-cast ability on long CD - 2 points

CC break - 5 points

Stealth scan - 2 points (AOEs do this better usually, of course, they also have a spammable AOE which a conceal op does not)

 

57 points

 

Conceal Operative

----------------------------------

Stealth - 7 points (10? no way)

Group smuggle - 4 points (being generous here)

Heals - 4 (3 points and 1 points respectively, as one requires TA)

Ranged AOE Mez - 7 points

Melee hard stun - 5 points

Cleanse - 5 points

Combat Rez - 5 points

Spammable Melee slow - 3 points

CC break - 5 points

OOC mez - 4 points

Knockdown - 4 points

 

55 points

 

I'm really curious what epic utility you think Conceal Ops have, I have a feeling you added gunslinger + conceal to the same thing.

Edited July 22, 2012 by dcgregorya

[dcgregorya]

This is a lot of Derp for one person. 20% ARP is on two abilities, not applied to the target, and Power Techs also get this along with more ArP then a Merc in talents Merc cannot acquire.

 

Heavy armor is less then 5% mitigation over Medium armor, and whats this "High dps" you speak of? Mercs are actually not putting up High Dmg numbers anymore they were nerfed to average dps but given no utility to pace other classes...If your thinking high ArP and DPS then you are thinking Power Tech not Merc.

 

Give Merc the utility and drop them to medium armor...bet they would all take a resounding yes to several utility moves in trade for a drop to medium armor...Mara's are one of the hardest to kill in the game, along with healer OP's and guess what...they are medium armor, but have a ton of utility moves.

 

You dont sound educated on this matter so dont comment again please.

 

35% armor pen is on every single shot when you're in the arsenal stance. Mercs put out huge amounts of AOE pressure. Fusion missile and DFA by themselves are enough to take 3 people to half health and wreck another 2 people pretty good on the DFA. Then you've got another 2 AOEs to add into that and significant single target RDPS. Putting a conceal operative as a pariah compared to an arsenal merc is a bad joke.

[dcgregorya]

The answer is rather simple ...

* no interrupt

* no escape ability

* no movement enhancing ability

* worst of the knockback skills

* no utility that the healers don't already provide (rezz & mezz)

* below average amount of stun abilities

* one skill tree has a debuff that can be provided by multiple classes and doesn't stack

* we're outshined in DPS and burst by Annihilation Marauders and probably well played Snipers

* 2nd weakest set of defensive cooldowns for PvP of all classes (Sorcerer beats us to the last spot)

 

Worst of the knockback skills? Mercs have the *best* knockback skill hands down. And below average on stuns? You have a ranged hard stun and a mez - what exactly is it you think other classes have? 2nd weakest defensive cooldowns? I'd take merc over sniper anyday on defensive CDs.

[Soljin]

Worst of the knockback skills? Mercs have the *best* knockback skill hands down. And below average on stuns? You have a ranged hard stun and a mez - what exactly is it you think other classes have? 2nd weakest defensive cooldowns? I'd take merc over sniper anyday on defensive CDs.

 

No not so much...In theory a KB would be a way to gap a melee..Without a root atleast through talents with the KB all it does is give the Melee a reason to use their gap closer which has 1/3rd the CD of our KB...In the case of Warrior classes you just gave them resources and Juggs a 10% dmg boost....Sorcs can add a root to their KB...Merc cannot.

 

So I would say Sorc has the better KB considering a root stops gap cli=osers and actually allows you to get some dmg out, or reposition.

 

Our Specced KB on Rocket punch is a joke...this is our version of a long CD interupt...For a gap maker it literally gives you 1.5 secs of distance with no snare on that ability...Wont stop melee from dmg'ing you at all....With the amount of resolve KB's apply using the Rocket Punch KB on flat ground is a bad idea.

 

One spec for Merc has 2 KB's and I would gladly give up the Rocket punch KB for an interupt and a specced root for our AoE KB..even with its long CD...That puts us on par with Sorc..

 

Best KB in the game is far from the truth sorry.

[T-Assassin]

Worst of the knockback skills? Mercs have the *best* knockback skill hands down. And below average on stuns? You have a ranged hard stun and a mez - what exactly is it you think other classes have? 2nd weakest defensive cooldowns? I'd take merc over sniper anyday on defensive CDs.

 

Merc vs Sniper.

 

Jet boost < cover pulse

Rocket Punch = Ambush

Conc Missle < Flashbang

Electro Dart > Debilitate

Energy Shield > Ballistic Shield (entrench)

proc snare < Leg Shot

heals = shield probe and evasion

Cure > nothing

nothing < distraction

heavy armor < Cover

 

you ever use cover? been patient and actually sat behind it while someone is unloading, or using a non-force/tech ability?

 

it's pretty awesome.

 

oh, and snipers can't be interrupted while in cover...

Edited July 25, 2012 by T-Assassin

[Soljin]

Merc vs Sniper.

 

Jet boost < cover pulse

Rocket Punch = Ambush

Conc Missle < Flashbang

Electro Dart > Debilitate

Energy Shield > Ballistic Shield (entrench)

proc snare < Leg Shot

heals = shield probe and evasion

Cure > nothing

nothing < distraction

heavy armor < Cover

 

you ever use cover? been patient and actually sat behind it while someone is unloading, or using a non-force/tech ability?

 

it's pretty awesome.

 

oh, and snipers can't be interrupted while in cover...

 

The last line of your post pretty much trumps Merc all together.... "Snipers Can't be interupted in cover" If I could stand still, and freecast....While getting a defensive buff as an Arsenal Merc...welll that would be nice.

[ManiacalShen]

We have 5 aoe attacks, 3 of which can be used while on the move, and two of which are spammable. That provides utility that other classes only dream of.

 

Wait, I have the five aoe and two spammable, but three used on the move? You can run and spam Missile Blast - and I do, often, to finish someone who's fleeing from me in PVP - but what's the other one? Fusion Missile, Sweeping Blasters, and Death from Above are all channeled, and SB is spammable. Incendiary Missile isn't channeled, but it does have a cooldown and isn't the most useful thing in our repertoire.

 

 

I can no longer take you seriously if you think BH knockbacks aren't a huge strength of the class. Try playing some other classes some time. You might appreciate what you have.

 

This I very much agree with. Mostly in Huttball, I adore my knockbacks. When I play my Jugg, I really miss them. Force Push is so powerful as to be unwieldy, and I shy away from using it sometimes for fear that I'll, say, push the ball carrier closer to the goal instead of into the pit or fire.

[Werdan]

Wait, I have the five aoe and two spammable, but three used on the move? You can run and spam Missile Blast - and I do, often, to finish someone who's fleeing from me in PVP - but what's the other one? Fusion Missile, Sweeping Blasters, and Death from Above are all channeled, and SB is spammable. Incendiary Missile isn't channeled, but it does have a cooldown and isn't the most useful thing in our repertoire.

 

 

 

 

This I very much agree with. Mostly in Huttball, I adore my knockbacks. When I play my Jugg, I really miss them. Force Push is so powerful as to be unwieldy, and I shy away from using it sometimes for fear that I'll, say, push the ball carrier closer to the goal instead of into the pit or fire.

 

The three you can use on the move are Missile Blast, Explosive Dart, and Fusion Missile but only if you use Power Surge and only once very 2 minutes. Incendiary Missile is instant, single target, spammable, and has NO cooldown. As far as knockbacks go I'll say it again. There are too many variables with it that sometimes just makes it flaky. Try using it on the side in Huttball when the opposing player could hit the ramp and your KB is shortened considerably. For the amount of resolve they add, they should either have a root applied or make it like Force Push where it also applies a knockdown.

[dcgregorya]

heals = shield probe and evasion

 

In what world is that true? Did you forget about your 25% dam redux on a shorter cooldown than both those skills?

[T-Assassin]

In what world is that true? Did you forget about your 25% dam redux on a shorter cooldown than both those skills?

 

if you read closely, the comparison for Energy Shield was made:

 

Energy Shield > Ballistic Shield (entrench)

 

in what world do you not read a post thoroughly and just criticize without formulating intelligent rebuttal?

 

so, i used those skills in comparison to heals...not a very exact comparison, just as close of one as i could come up with using all the granted abilities.