Xinika Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 Is is true that the Battle Readiness change that came in recently was just another kick in the pants for already anemic shadow DPS? Because it sounds like the problem they claimed to be addressing with The Great Shadow Nerf was that shadow tanks were doing too much damage; so to fix this, they . . . nerfed the survivability on shadow tanks . . . and nerfed the damage even further on the damage specs. Mission Accomplished? Well, to be fair, KC damage is higher as of 1.3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMaulUK Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 10-15% Goes against the design philosophy of 5% so that right there is a flaw. After all this is Bioware we are talking about. Open world pvp was broken from day #1 and any developer who needs to shut down - in this case, Ilum, for open world pvp, needs to be fired. SWTOR is simply a poor PvE game and will remain so with a tiny user base. The of the reasons why SWG lasted so long - pre NGE, was because open world pvp was rife and enjoyable to do. And this is one of the reasons why I am off to GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heezdedjim Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Well, to be fair, KC damage is higher as of 1.3... My bad; I should have said that in order to fix the "problem" of shadow tanks doing too much damage, they nerfed survivability and buffed damage. I guess when they're dead they don't do ANY damage; so maybe it all comes out in the wash then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiili Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 What they need to do is add a Damage Dealt Reduction on Combat Technique, rather than nerfing its defence, by 10% - 15%, at least then more people would be playing Infiltration perhaps. I knew Infiltration was a solo specialization, it's why I prefer it. You can work for the team, for instance in Huttball; get to the opposing team's line, making the path to scoring easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 What they need to do is add a Damage Dealt Reduction on Combat Technique, rather than nerfing its defence, by 10% - 15%, at least then more people would be playing Infiltration perhaps. I knew Infiltration was a solo specialization, it's why I prefer it. You can work for the team, for instance in Huttball; get to the opposing team's line, making the path to scoring easier. How in God's name will this fix Infil? Are you being serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectus Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You say just general class names, so I'll assume you're comparing Balance to Watchman. I can buy Balance being 15% behind Watchman in sustained damage. It's more like 15-20% if the Sentinel is as good as the Shadow. However, this thread is about Infiltration, and it's 25-30% behind Watchman for sustained damage. If you're seeing closer gaps, your Shadows are much better players than your Sentinels. Quoted for truth. Bottom line is, Infiltration Shadows are a spec without an end-game role. And as someone on Page #1 of ths thread observed, Infiltration Shadows are also weak in solo gameplay. Too fragile, with not enough burst to compensate. Stealth is fun, but once you've popped out of stealth, it's mostly downhill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevNYC Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I think people are reading too much into what he meant by saying it's not a "teamplay" spec. It's clear from the context that he wasn't trying to say that infiltration doesn't belong in a team environment so much as he was trying to say that the spec doesn't rely on boosting/protecting teammates so much as it relies on picking off weak targets quickly to create a numbers advantage. That said, I'm not convinced that infiltration is that good at what it's supposed to be good at, either. I'm way more afraid of an operative/scoundrel's ability to pick off weak targets and escape than I am of an infiltration shadow's ability to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardya Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I think people are reading too much into what he meant by saying it's not a "teamplay" spec. It could be interpreted to mean that the spec does not need a team, it's so awesome on it's own. I think he was saying that it's a similar role to concealment operative. I kind of look at that class (Co-Op) as a solo class in a team game. You can basically assign that class a role, like kill the healer in Voidstar, or the Jugg in Hutball or to solo capture a lightly guarded point. I personally don't think the infiltration shadow really has that role, simply because of the cool down on stealth and the fact (as said before) that stealth makes you waste your cleanse and force speed and is still not close to 100% successful. How can you describe a class as "hit and run" with out a true opener? Or the ability to "run" more than 5 times per Warzone max. Is my math wrong, the cooldown is 180 seconds (three minutes) in a War Zone that lasts at most 15 minutes. Edited July 17, 2012 by richardya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarg Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 ... relies on picking off weak targets quickly to create a numbers advantage. That said, I'm not convinced that infiltration is that good at what it's supposed to be good at, either. ... That's a big part of the issue. The dev said all specs were within 5% of a target for their "grace" period of attack. That grace period couldn't be more than 30s or so because the only way Infiltration can keep up with several other specs is by essentially force dumping a full bar. Once that force buffer is gone, regen rate throttles dps way too much to keep up. Maybe they can tack on a tad more time to the period and let average damage float down to the bottom of the range. So, what Infiltration is supposed to be good at is burst damage, but their own design target forces it to be roughly the same as everyone else. The spec is then left with a bunch of weaknesses to offset a hardly existent advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarg Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Something I've mentioned several times before in this forum... Stealth would be much more useful and the long cooldown on Force Cloak wouldn't be such an issue if the game engine didn't continually refuse to drop combat all the time. Back before release even, the Devs were putting out class preview videos and such and talking about class design intent and such. Back then, they used to talk about Shadows/Assassins as having several options to escape to stealth all the time. It wasn't just Force Cloak; they specifically mentioned combos like Low Slash + Force Speed as a reliable method to escape and get back to stealth and then restart the fight before the enemy had time to recover. Also, Force Lift was mentioned and even just snaring someone and kiting/los. In real game, none of that stuff really works because you have to put half a warzone map of distance between your enemy before combat will finally drop. I think they designed the spec on the assumption that combat drop was quick and easy, and then at some point in beta apparently set combat drop rules such that it nerfed stealth into the stone age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Something I've mentioned several times before in this forum... Stealth would be much more useful and the long cooldown on Force Cloak wouldn't be such an issue if the game engine didn't continually refuse to drop combat all the time. Back before release even, the Devs were putting out class preview videos and such and talking about class design intent and such. Back then, they used to talk about Shadows/Assassins as having several options to escape to stealth all the time. It wasn't just Force Cloak; they specifically mentioned combos like Low Slash + Force Speed as a reliable method to escape and get back to stealth and then restart the fight before the enemy had time to recover. Also, Force Lift was mentioned and even just snaring someone and kiting/los. In real game, none of that stuff really works because you have to put half a warzone map of distance between your enemy before combat will finally drop. I think they designed the spec on the assumption that combat drop was quick and easy, and then at some point in beta apparently set combat drop rules such that it nerfed stealth into the stone age. Combat can take up to 30s to drop, which is more than enough time for someone to love tap you again. Lift for combat drop is straight ********. There are too many 30m instant cast abilities and spells that foul up that fantasy. Low slash + speed only if your target isn't in the thick of the fight. If random AoE hits him then he'll be back on you in a heart beat. The devs are all idiots and I'm convinced they've never played the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedra Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) There are actually several tidbits we can take away from the Designer's comments. First, Shin has already mentioned. In a game based on team play, even the Designers admit that Infiltration Shadows are not a team play AC. Second, take note of the within 5% of their targets. Here's the thing about targets with variances. That's plus or minus. So in reality the difference between a Shadow's performance and another DPS class could be 10% (as designed, player ability notwithstanding). Shadow performs 5% below the target while the other AC performs 5% above it. And the Designer implies he is ok with that. Third and finally, apparently you must be a super player to even hit within their 5% variance. Otherwise, as he clearly states, the problem is you. It's a learn to play issue. I would get perturbed but I unsubbed when they announced the specifics of 1.3. I'm on their time now. Edited July 18, 2012 by Pedra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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