Post FOTJ Novel announced: Crucible

[ProfessorWalsh]

I think everyone can agree that the prequel trilogy was pretty unique. And I highly doubt that you would stop reading EU considering you write such good quality stuff set in a time so far away from Skywalker.

 

No. I'd stop. I don't even enjoy reading clone wars novels. I hated most of NJO because Luke was rarely involved. To me Star Wars is Luke Skywalker.

[Ausstig]

No. I'd stop. I don't even enjoy reading clone wars novels. I hated most of NJO because Luke was rarely involved. To me Star Wars is Luke Skywalker.

 

Thats you every one is different, I for example want more stories about Ben, I see Star Wars as a universe, not a character, thus I can play this game.

 

Do you consider the Prequels Star Wars as only episode 3 has Luke in it?

 

Also I am very surprised the FOTJ was better received then Legacy, it was not very good at all. Legacy despite it flaws, of which there are many, was a better story; all of the elements, such as plot, characters (though it was not much better then any given Allston or Golden novel, but better then Dennings') the dramatic tension and the events all interconnected, unlike a lot of FOTJ; case in point Kessel.

 

Also it starts off stupid, Daala should be the one on trial not Luke, for too any reasons.

 

I take you dislike Legacy cause it undoes Lukes work?

 

I dislike FOTJ cause it makes the Jedi look like Sith, Killing other jedi, over throwing the government in a viloent method when peaceful and democratic means are readily available, is not how Jedi should act.

 

I also take issue with Jedi in government, something both Legacy and FOTJ share.

 

Also the big three are LOOKING old, let them rest have Luke become the Yoda of the NJO, wise and just sort of out of the day to day fights.

[AlyxDinas]

I'm of the general opinion, as well, that FOTJ does much more to damage Luke's character and the character of his Order than anything contained in Legacy. Really, it contains some truly reprehensible actions and rhetoric that run dangerously counter to the spirit of the IP.

 

I don't ever think that we will see Legacy removed or completely retcon'd. As the provided (although unsourced; literally my searches for its source only return this forum thread) quote states, the major changes we'd be likely to see involve timeline shifting and perhaps some background information. That is, you'd probably see changes to the timeline and some minor details changed about things the Imperial "Victory Without War" campaign attributed to Jagged Fel. They'd just say "Actually that was Jagged Fel II" or something along those lines. Easy stuff.

 

... it has been indicated multiple times that LA doesn't want Legacy as canon.

 

This, however, is bit dishonest. And a projection of your own feelings about the series onto the reality of the situation. If it was a common sentiment, it would be well known sentiment.

 

At a bare minimum, Lucas Licensing, from what we can tell, doesn't seem to want to remove Legacy from the canon. In fact, they've made a pointed effort to keep it. The Essential Atlas, Essential Guide to Warfare, the Ultimate Visual Guides, Jedi v. Sith. Note that within these is work that outright includes FOTJ's conclusion. That is to say, that whole thing you mentioned about recent work overwriting older work? Well, any notion that Apocalypse had of Legacy being gone (of which, actually, there was...well, zero)...has already been overwritten.

 

It's pretty clear that they don't want to get rid of it in full. Merely make the canon a bit more free while also keeping it, if they do anything at all. Hell, the borderline metatextual notions we get in Apocalypse about it being merely delayed and not stopped pretty offer them the easiest way out if they want to adjust the timeline. "Oh, what you saw was Legacy if it had not been delayed. It still happens the exact same way, only later. It's not 127 ABY, it's really 327." Again, easy stuff.

 

It was, amazingly, one of the only real smart pieces of writing that Troy Denning did in that entire, terrible series.

 

As for this notion:

 

See "The Clone Wars" and read the original Zahn trilogy. Two completely different explanations for the same named event.

 

See also the fact that the canon provides an explanation which doesn't retroactively remove Zahn's work from the trilogy.

Edited July 16, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[ProfessorWalsh]

Thats you every one is different, I for example want more stories about Ben, I see Star Wars as a universe, not a character, thus I can play this game.

 

Do you consider the Prequels Star Wars as only episode 3 has Luke in it?

 

I consider them prequels that are necessary to flesh out Anakin Skywalker and thus by proxy Luke Skywalker.

 

Also I am very surprised the FOTJ was better received then Legacy, it was not very good at all. Legacy despite it flaws, of which there are many, was a better story; all of the elements, such as plot, characters (though it was not much better then any given Allston or Golden novel, but better then Dennings') the dramatic tension and the events all interconnected, unlike a lot of FOTJ; case in point Kessel.

 

The main reason FotJ was better recieved than Legacy, to me, was that Karen Traviss, who made a lot of people angry wasn't involved in FotJ.

 

FotJ was also better received than NJO was.

 

Also it starts off stupid, Daala should be the one on trial not Luke, for too any reasons.

 

I take you dislike Legacy cause it undoes Lukes work?

 

I dislike Legacy because it undoes Luke's work and because parts of it, to me, make very little sense. I wouldn't have any problem with Legacy if say Legacy had been 1,000 years later, not a mere 130 years later. That is too radical of a shift to happen in such a short amount of time.

 

Why I say such a short amount of time is because we can safely assume that Luke will live to be at least 120 years old. This is barring the fact that those with high Force Sensitivity tend to live longer normally... Normal people in Star Wars live to be 130 - 180 as it is. He's currently not even 60 yet. Meaning that all of the events of Legacy have to happen in like 25 years. 25 years is a very short time to conquer the Republic, even the Sith of TOR couldn't do it in 30 years.

 

I dislike FOTJ cause it makes the Jedi look like Sith, Killing other jedi, over throwing the government in a viloent method when peaceful and democratic means are readily available, is not how Jedi should act.

 

You just misrepresented the entirety of FotJ in that sentence.

 

Makes the Jedi look like Sith? I'm sorry... Where was the part where the Jedi enslaved an entire people and then began murdering each other?

 

Killing other Jedi? You mean the one incident where it happened and where Saba tried to avoid that at all costs? If you are going to make a criticism at least be honest about it.

 

Democratic means weren't readily available. The Jedi didn't know that the Senate was about to act and had been trying to be democratic for several books. They also didn't overthrow the government. They overthrew Daala. They didn't take over anything and they did it without causing a single death and with as few injuries as humanly possible. Also, need I remind you, that the diplomatic option would not have stopped the Mandos that Daala had already deployed, diplomacy would have taken too long and would have resulted in the deaths of innocent people.

 

Jedi are not pacifists. They are not supposed to always avoid death. Jedi are supposed to take the most direct route possible to resolve a conflict with the minimum loss of lives as they can. In the case of what the Jedi did it resulted in 0 deaths. The diplomatic method would have resulted in hundreds if not thousands of deaths.

 

Jedi never let attachments get in the way of the mission. This includes such attachments as "avoidance of violence" or "diplomatic means always if available" thus trying the diplomatic route given the situation would have been completely unlike a Jedi.

 

I also take issue with Jedi in government, something both Legacy and FOTJ share.

 

The Jedi in government issue lasted less than 1 book and in universe it was only for a week while a new Supreme Chancellor was elected. Also the Jedi only were one part of a triumvirate.

 

Also the big three are LOOKING old, let them rest have Luke become the Yoda of the NJO, wise and just sort of out of the day to day fights.

 

In Star Wars where according to Leia 60 is the new 30... The big three are not old at all.

[AlyxDinas]

You just misrepresented the entirety of FotJ in that sentence.

 

Less than you think, however. Particularly the notion about the necessity of the Jedi coup. By that point, Dalaa had lost all of her clout. Sothias Saar, a recently insane Jedi, is allowed to leave the planet for Blaudu Sextus without any issues. Once this is possible, the urgency of the Jedi Temple blockade is lost since there's no justifiable cause. She'd already faced pressure from the death of Kani Asari as it was. There's riots in the street demanding she step down. Madhi Vaandt's been killed publically on the Holonet by Belok Rhal, who'd just been captured by none other than Sothias Saar. Daala has no way out. She's so massed in scandal that a vote for her dismissal would pretty much be unanimous. Doubly so when you toss in Treen and Lacerson.

 

The pressing threat which makes the coup necessary is supposed to be another order of Mandalorians to Klatooine but the situation is so mindbogglingly poorly written that we have every reason to believe that their employment is to Daala and not her office, regardless of whatever GA titles she bestows upon them. They're a private contractor army answerable to Daala only. She's not even presumably paying them with GA money. What's more, she's acting illegally. Her deployment of Mandalorians to Klatooine is an order she can't even legally give because it is an incursion into Hutt Space. Klatooine is not a part of the GA and thus, she has no right to intervene. When the Mandalorians act, therefore, they're not acting on authority of the Office of the Chief of State of the GA but for a private contractor. We know this because know that Daala's money is still good enough to the Madalorians even after she is incarcerated that she buys a rescue. Realistically, the coup should have done nothing to stop the Mandalorians heading to Klatooine. But we're supposed to believe that plot point....well, just because.

 

The bottom line is that the fact that Sothias Saar was able to get off planet (when he should be subject to more scrutiny than most Jedi) makes the apparent need to launch StealthXs to Pydyr and the later need to scramble to stop impending the attack on Klatooine utterly ridiculous. In fact, it completely undermines Kenth's death and Plan Delta because it flat out marks them as not necessary. If the Jedi wanted to send people to stop the Mandalorians on Klatooine they could. I can outline, using just the information of the text, simple ways in which the Jedi could have undone the blockade, how they could have reach Pydyr, how they could have intervened at Klatooine, and better yet, how Kenth could have survived and Daala could have been removed from office without a single fired stun bolt from a blaster.

 

If you wish, I could could even go on to outline why the situation in the series is flat out wrong in what it expects the readers to believe about the Jedi and their justifications for their actions. And, Hell, this is pretty much one single plot point. If we need to get started about the utterly repulsive "Maybe balance means eternal war between Sith and Jedi" nonsense that we get by the end of the series, we can open up a whole entirely different but equally vile can of worms.

 

The truth of the matter is that that if any series did irreparable damage to Luke and to the Jedi, FOTJ was it. I expect my Jedi to be smart. I expect my heroes to be better than me, which shouldn't be hard because I'm a pretty terrible person. What I got was a bunch of petulant children who barely even attempted to guide things away from violence and conflict. Instead, they fed on it. Welcomed it. Used it as a political tool. Sought to let it grow in order to justify talking points. Repeated the mistakes of the old Order and then made complete mockeries of themselves with their belligerence.

 

Worse yet, they proved Daala right. Natasi Daala, a brain damaged, mass murdering war criminal...ended up having her point proven right. Think about that.

 

FOTJ didn't have Jedi. It had thugs with lightsabers.

Edited July 17, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[ProfessorWalsh]

FOTJ didn't have Jedi. It had thugs with lightsabers.

 

I have never seen a post by you be so incredibly wrong before. I disagree on every point. I think you are looking for ways to lash out at it simply because you believe that your precious NJO was largely under appreciated and this moves the books back to the direction Star Wars was supposed to be.

 

The fact is that stopping Daala did cause the Mandalorians to stop.

 

Simply because you don't think it should have has no bearing on it. It did. Thus we know removing her from office worked. More importantly we know that the diplomatic route would have been much slower than the route they took.

 

You simply don't like Jedi to act. You like Jedi to be super contemplative and so afraid to act that they instead become paralyzed by pointless philosophizing.

 

NJO didn't have Jedi.

FOTJ had Jedi.

[Ausstig]

I have never seen a post by you be so incredibly wrong before. I disagree on every point. I think you are looking for ways to lash out at it simply because you believe that your precious NJO was largely under appreciated and this moves the books back to the direction Star Wars was supposed to be.

 

The fact is that stopping Daala did cause the Mandalorians to stop.

 

Simply because you don't think it should have has no bearing on it. It did. Thus we know removing her from office worked. More importantly we know that the diplomatic route would have been much slower than the route they took.

 

You simply don't like Jedi to act. You like Jedi to be super contemplative and so afraid to act that they instead become paralyzed by pointless philosophizing.

 

NJO didn't have Jedi.

FOTJ had Jedi.

 

So for the record you think the Jedi high Council, should act like children and throw temper tantrums when then don't get they way? Hammer wanted to negotiate with Daala, who is head of the government and therefor part of the government, but the jedi don't want to compromise. Any Sab annoyed me, Hammer keeping secrets for, from his view, the good of the order is unforgivable and HE MUST BE REMOVED, but Sab is keeping secrets for selfish reasons, which were never really clear to me why can't others know about the nest?, it bugs me a lot.

 

Also on the jedi removing Daala, if the Mormons over throw Obama tomorrow would they be acting against the man or the government? As the head of the government he is apart of it, same for Daala.

 

As to stopping the Mando's, maybe they could have been stopped by Wynn Dorvan, WHO WAS THE ONE WHO ARRAIGNED THEIR PAYMENT.

 

Also "Compassion is for those who deserve it" as apposed to "Even a race of monsters can be redeemed"

 

Which is the more jedi statement?

 

At the end of NJO, there was redemption, there was hope for a new era.

 

At the end of LOTF and FOTJ there is no redemption, no hope only more darkness and death. Instead of showing that the jedi way is better, he just acts like a jerk to them. And Vestra is not redeemed because she wanted to live.

 

Ben has no friends.

 

Is this what Star Wars is?

 

 

Also what about this game? it has nothing to do with Luke at all, is it Star Wars?

[AlyxDinas]

I have never seen a post by you be so incredibly wrong before. I disagree on every point.

 

And yet, you're not really using the text to disprove me here.

 

I think you are looking for ways to lash out at it simply because you believe that your precious NJO was largely under appreciated and this moves the books back to the direction Star Wars was supposed to be.

 

And it only took you two sentences before you began committing fallacies. It's not a race, you know. Furthermore, you're very much off base, I'm afraid. The NJO is no more precious to me or "my" thing than I can say that TOR is "my" game or chocolate "my" ice cream. The fact that I enjoy it doesn't mean I've taken some strange oath of fealty to it and believe I must attack everything for not being it. It might shock you here but not everyone thinks like you and feels some strange, pathological need to protect an inanimate series. I think NJO has plenty of flaws. It's bloated and had way too many entries, is often unsure about what it wants out of major character arcs, and represents a tonal shift in the IP that few of its writers managed to do well. At times, it's a meandering mess that treads water instead of making narrative progress.

 

Similarly, there are things I thought FOTJ did well. It had a ton of potential. And for as much as I think Troy Denning is a terrible writer and he will not be getting one cent of my money for anything ever again, Abyss is actually a pretty strong bit of pulp Sci-Fi. But for the little things that I think FOTJ does well, I believe it stumbles a whole lot more in big way. It's barely consistent from book to book in terms of narrative, has far too many superfluous subplots for such a small series and author pool, is possibly the most incoherent thing that Del Rey's ever done (and considering LOTF, that's saying a lot), and contains some of the most frightening rhetoric found in Star Wars fiction.

 

The fact is that stopping Daala did cause the Mandalorians to stop.

 

The fact also is that doesn't have the necessary narrative weight to properly motivate Plan Delta. It's an excuse and when the Jedi appeal to it, it feels like an excuse. It is an excuse so long a Thalleus Tharn diagnoses the insane Jedi as cured. It is an excuse so long as StealthXs can be launched to Pydyr. It is an excuse so long as the temple siege is lifted, which it was. It is an excuse so long as Madhi Vaandt is dead and there's demonstrations in the street against Daala. It is an excuse so long as Belok Rhal is in custody. It is an excuse so long as they are privately contracted by Daala. It is an excuse so long as Dorvan can potential rescind their payment. (Those last two, by the way, cover the issue no matter who they are employed by. A matter which the text does not resolve.)

 

But most of all, it was an excuse from the moment that Sothias Saar was able to leave Coruscant with no apparent problems to stop the Mandalorians attack on the Octusi.

 

Simply because you don't think it should have has no bearing on it. It did.

 

That has nothing to do with whether or not the narrative actually holds any water, unfortunately. Saying that bad writing shouldn't be called bad or that terribly plot justifications shouldn't be called out simply because a book insists that they aren't bad...isn't good reading. It's lazy reader. And lazy writing, for the record.

 

Because, here's the thing: I have no issue whatsoever with the Jedi removing Daala forcibly from office. I have every issue with the novels providing insufficient cause.

 

Thus we know removing her from office worked.

 

We know it was an option that was open and the one that they chose, sure. For what it is worth, I applaud how clean it was. I lament how unnecessary it was.

 

More importantly we know that the diplomatic route would have been much slower than the route they took.

 

Faster, quicker. I recall, as a child, listening to a wizened mentor figure training my secular hero and warning him against these things. The Jedi could have ousted Daala without firing a single shot on Coruscant.

 

Would it have been as fast as pulling the trigger and storming into the Senate? Probably not. But would that route have been as disastrous as you claim? The text doesn't seem to lend much credence to the notion, I'm afraid. In fact, it seems to unintentionally strive to prove the idea wrong by providing an excess of valid, in universe actions.

 

You simply don't like Jedi to act. You like Jedi to be super contemplative and so afraid to act that they instead become paralyzed by pointless philosophizing.

 

Again, you've appealed to a motive that isn't there. Nothing you just said was correct. There's literally not a single part of these sentences that is grounded in actuality. If it helps to illuminate what I think I Jedi should be and what they should do, I will merely tell you that my favorite Jedi is Kerra Holt.

 

Leave projections and assumptions out of this. No one is impressed when you attack strawmen.

 

NJO didn't have Jedi.

FOTJ had Jedi.

 

You're trying too hard and it shows. Keep to the topic. I'm still confused as to what relevancy NJO has in a discussion about something in FOTJ.

Edited July 17, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Aurbere]

You're trying too hard and it shows. Keep to the topic. I'm still confused as to what relevancy NJO has in a discussion about something in FOTJ.

 

I think you brought that up. I'm probably mistaken. Whatever:cool:

[Aurbere]

I don't understand why we must argue about FOTJ and its events. Can't we just agree to disagree?

[AlyxDinas]

I'm probably mistaken.

 

You are.

Edited July 17, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[ProfessorWalsh]

So for the record you think the Jedi high Council, should act like children and throw temper tantrums when then don't get they way?

 

It isn't acting like a child and throwing a temper tantrum when you are under the situation that they were in.

 

The Jedi Temple had been attacked. A 15 year old unarmed girl had been shot to death on the temple steps. The Jedi's lives were threatened time and again. These were people who had done nothing to warrant such behavior. There comes a point in time where one cannot allow such actions to go unpunished and there are lines that can be crossed and Daala crossed those lines.

 

Hammer wanted to negotiate with Daala, who is head of the government and therefor part of the government, but the jedi don't want to compromise. Any Sab annoyed me, Hammer keeping secrets for, from his view, the good of the order is unforgivable and HE MUST BE REMOVED, but Sab is keeping secrets for selfish reasons, which were never really clear to me why can't others know about the nest?, it bugs me a lot.

 

Others couldn't know about the nest for cultural reasons. That was a mistake, and I agree, but it has no bearing on how the Jedi Council acted. Hamner was removed, he should have stayed in his room like he was told to do, because he had been stripped of his position by the Jedi Council. He instead forced Saba to kill him. He brought his death on himself.

 

*snip*

 

Not quite the same and we aren't able to discuss using real world religious groups and real wold politics. The difference between the two has to do with a real world government figure not sending mercenaries to attack the real world political group.

 

As to stopping the Mando's, maybe they could have been stopped by Wynn Dorvan, WHO WAS THE ONE WHO ARRAIGNED THEIR PAYMENT.

 

This assumes that the Jedi knew that and the Jedi thought that they could get him to do so. Also, if Wynn arranged their payment it means that the Mandos were being payed by the Republic and not by Daala personally.

 

Also "Compassion is for those who deserve it" as apposed to "Even a race of monsters can be redeemed"

 

Which is the more jedi statement?

 

At the end of NJO, there was redemption, there was hope for a new era.

 

Not every story ends in redemption. There is a point where someone cannot be redeemed. The Jedi believe this, the Jedi have always believed this. This is even in the films... Remember Palpatine getting thrown down a shaft? Remember General Grevious being killed? Not everyone gets redeemed.

 

At the end of LOTF and FOTJ there is no redemption, no hope only more darkness and death. Instead of showing that the jedi way is better, he just acts like a jerk to them. And Vestra is not redeemed because she wanted to live.

 

Vestara is not redeemed because she didn't want to be redeemed.

 

Ben has no friends.

 

Ben has plenty of loving friends and family.

 

Is this what Star Wars is?

 

Yes. You are simply misinterpreting it to make your point.

 

Also what about this game? it has nothing to do with Luke at all, is it Star Wars?

 

TOR? No. TOR isn't really Star Wars. TOR bears a slight resemblance to Star Wars but nothing beyond that. TOR is just another MMO with a Star Wars skin slapped on it. Do I enjoy it? Sure. Is it Star Wars? No.

[AlyxDinas]

The Jedi Temple had been attacked. A 15 year old unarmed girl had been shot to death on the temple steps.

 

Yes. And said siege was rescinded and Belok Rhal was in custody.

 

He brought his death on himself.

 

Of course. Because we all know the massive launch of StealthXs was needed...even though Jedi were already getting off the planet and passed the Sixth Fleet already. Previously psychotic Jedi, we might add. No, the Jedi had to launch directly from the Temple because that was clearly the only option.

 

Also, if Wynn arranged their payment it means that the Mandos were being payed by the Republic and not by Daala personally.

 

Potentially, but the novels do not make it clear in the slightest. Daala's ordering the Mandalorians in secret. Dorvan's handling the finances because he's her aide. We're not told whose credits are being used. Regardless, Daala has enough money to get the Mandalore himself to come a break her out of prison so it would seem that a lack of GA funding towards the Klatooine mission isn't even an issue. But beyond that, Dorvan remains an untapped resource by the Jedi in this scenario. He plans to tender his resignation but has not done so yet. He's sympathetic to the Jedi. He's one of the best "ins" that they have. And they forgo him completely.

 

As a side note: if Daala's paying the Mandalorians with GA funding, she has a sufficient scandal on her hands after Blaudu Sextus for legitimate impeachment. Realistically, she should have been on legitimate trial at the end of Vortex. This gets even more pressing when Treen's man in Naval Ops reveals the Klatooine order to the press.

 

Not everyone gets redeemed.

 

Of course not. But the trend, starting with LOTF and pushing onward into FOTJ, was to see the Jedi almost hyper militarized. Which is something of a funny notion considering that Lucas spent an entire prequel showing why this mindset and behavior was one of the Order's major flaws. And note that I'm talking about militancy, not merely being proactive.

 

I don't believe anyone is saying that Daala needed to be turned into a good guy or that, say, Abeloth needed to be anything other than the big bad dragon that our hero slays at the end of the story. The argument is that, thematically, FOTJ is largely at odds with some of the themes found in works at the highest echelons of canon. It ends with vague ramblings and notions that eternal war is something of a good thing, almost. And while this IP is called Star Wars, I don't recall the notion of war ever being put forth as cosmological imperative until this point. It's really, really jarring.

 

Vestara is not redeemed because she didn't want to be redeemed.

 

Miracles, apparently, do happen. This is actually a true statement.

 

Ben has plenty of loving friends and family.

 

Name someone outside of his immediate family that we see Ben engage in extended time with. Lon Shevu is dead. Vestara doesn't really count for obvious reasons. We havn't seen Barit Saiy since LOTF. Can we name a Jedi peer of Ben's? Someone of equal age with whom he shares a mutual respect? Seha Dorvald maybe. The Horn children maybe but I don't think we've ever seen any interaction between them. Who are Ben's actual peers?

 

At least the Solo children had characters like Zekk, Tenel Ka, Lowbacca, Lusa, etc. Ben doesn't have any of that.

 

Yes. You are simply misinterpreting it to make your point.

 

You also are reinterpreting the IP to make your own point, which seems to suggest that the "what" of Star Wars is somewhat malleable and not rigid. The end line is that Star Wars isn't really defined by a single character. If it was, things like TOR, TOTJ, stand alone novels like Crosscurrent or Knight Errant, and other associated media wouldn't bare the name. The general unifying elements are setting and theme. And even then, it's pretty much just the setting.

 

Believe it or not, there's been plenty of Star Wars media without Luke. Possibly just as much as media that contains him or contextualizes his story. They weren't called something other than Star Wars.

 

Listen, I'm not saying that you can't believe that Star Wars is a certain thing with specific criteria. But let us (myself included in that, mind you) not delude ourselves into thinking that it can be only one thing ever. That noted, let's not confuse or equation structural preferences (ie. "These stories must always have or be about Luke.") for dismay for thematic deviations from the original material (ie. "The main stories contain themes X, Y, and Z...which are being grossly ignored here.")

 

For the record, that's my final word on this matter. If we want to discuss this novel and why I cringe at its future existence, that's a discussion I'd be eager to have.

Edited July 17, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[ProfessorWalsh]

Yes. And said siege was rescinded and Belok Rhal was in custody.

 

Rhal wasn't the person who ordered the Seige. That was Natassi Daala... Who at that point... Had suffered no penalties.

 

If you want to argue anything is unrealistic (aside from Daala ever getting the position of Chief of State in the first place... Of course that was Karen Traviss who did that because she wanted a Jedi hater in charge of the Republic) then argue the fact that Daala should have been tossed out of office instantly once that girl was killed. Not just the siege being ended, Daala should have been out on her butt right there.

 

Of course. Because we all know the massive launch of StealthXs was needed...even though Jedi were already getting off the planet and passed the Sixth Fleet already. Previously psychotic Jedi, we might add. No, the Jedi had to launch directly from the Temple because that was clearly the only option.

 

Only option or not. Hamner was removed from his position and he had no reason to act against the will of the Jedi Council. He had no authority to attack and attempt to kill Saba and stop that launch. He was removed because he let his attachment to the Republic Military cloud his judgment and he further allowed it when he tried to kill acting Grandmaster Saba.

 

Of course this is a double standard you hold the Jedi to. The Jedi should have sought out a diplomatic solution and not acted... But Hamner trying to murder Saba was okay because he was trying to be diplomatic with Daala. (Read: Rolling over whenever Daala snapped her fingers.)

 

Name someone outside of his immediate family that we see Ben engage in extended time with. Lon Shevu is dead. Vestara doesn't really count for obvious reasons. We havn't seen Barit Saiy since LOTF. Can we name a Jedi peer of Ben's? Someone of equal age with whom he shares a mutual respect? Seha Dorvald maybe. The Horn children maybe but I don't think we've ever seen any interaction between them. Who are Ben's actual peers?

 

At least the Solo children had characters like Zekk, Tenel Ka, Lowbacca, Lusa, etc. Ben doesn't have any of that.

 

Just because we don't see them often doesn't mean they aren't there. Ben had friends, he has simply lost many of them, part of this was because of a number of factors.

 

1. Botching NJO up horribly.

This goes back to Vergere, if they had not written her poorly and tried to introduce a new mindset to the Force then nobody would have had to retcon her and cause Jacen Solo to fall which subsequently took Taihiri out in the fallout. If you want to blame a lot of Ben's angst on anything I can only point to the, "Oh my god anyone can die!" nature of NJO which took out Anakin Solo, and then later Jacen Solo, and did horrible things to Taihiri.

 

2. Karen Traviss

The death of Shevu.

 

3. The only reason why we have so many friends of the Solos is because they starred in the Young Jedi Knights series. Ben Skywalker hasn't become an important figure until LotF really. You can't expect a character who has only had a few books to be explored to have the same development as a pair of characters who have been around since the Thrawn Trilogy.

 

As to friends and family:

 

Luke Skywalker

Jaina Solo

the Horns (we know they trained together at the same time at least)

Lando Calrissian (any son of Luke's is absolutely a nephew by proxy of Lando)

Han Solo

Leia Solo

[Ausstig]

The theme of OT was the redemption of Darth Vader.

 

now that discussion can move onto a thread about the future.

 

I am not looking forward to Crucible because Denning does a very poor Luke.

[AlyxDinas]

You know, this is way too good to ignore. I promise to whatever gods you so wish me to swear that I will utterly ignore whatever impotent response this post elicits.

 

Rhal wasn't the person who ordered the Seige.

 

No. But he's be involved in two highly public murders and one violent suppression of a slave revolt. His capture shows us two things. The first being that Jedi action against the Mandalorians alone would have sufficiently stopped the threat to Klatooine. The second is that his being in custody robs Daala of whatever deniability she might have had. Put him on a stand. Get Dorvan up there. There's a ton of people who will make the case against her. Make Daala endure the same circus court that she subjected Tahiri to except let real evidence do the job. Beat her at her own game. Don't make all her claims come to life.

 

Honestly, I thought this was where the series might have been going. It would have been interesting. Unique. Alas, we don't get to see Daala outmaneuvered or out-thought. We only get to see her outgunned. It's remedial story telling. It actually wastes the chance for two B plots to merge into something significant and smart.

 

..then argue the fact that Daala should have been tossed out of office instantly once that girl was killed. Not just the siege being ended, Daala should have been out on her butt right there.

 

I've made a point of mentioning Kani's death. But you're cherry picking. I'm supposed to question Daala on just that point? And not all the other things I raised? I've listed stacks of reasons for her legitimate dismissal. Things even worse than Kani Asari's death. If you accept Asari's death as sufficient for legal removal, all else that follows is more than sufficient. Beyond this, however, that event retained a degree of deniability to it which subsequent events did not. Apparently enough that the novels don't find it damning enough for Daala to be removed. And if we have to ignore Kani Asari's death and its ramifications as the book suggests, then we also have to do so by the same logic that you insist mean that I accept the necessity of the Jedi coup. Daala wasn't kicked from office for that incident, ergo because it was in the book, it doesn't matter what we thought should have happened. All that matters is what happened.

 

Obviously Golden thought that Belok could kill Asari with no major political issues for Daala, therefore you're wrong. Daala shouldn't have been tried for her complicity in murder. Because if we have to take it at the book's word that the Klatooine situation means that Plan Delta needed to happen immediately, we also have to accept the book's claim that Asari's death did not warrant the significant political blacklash you claim. See how that works? See how easily I get to dismiss your criticism of the plot's verisimilitude with that type of insipid thought?

 

Of course this is a double standard you hold the Jedi to. The Jedi should have sought out a diplomatic solution and not acted... But Hamner trying to murder Saba was okay because he was trying to be diplomatic with Daala.

 

When have I exonerated Kenth for double dealing behind his peers back? Or for attacking Saba? I merely don't equally exonerate Saba or the Council for making no attempts to even hear him out. When I say that Kenth's death is a failure, it is a failure because it could have been avoided. The Jedi, regardless of what the book tells us, do not need to launch en masse from the Temple to Pydyr. They insist this is the only way to go and help Luke but this is utterly false. Kenth bears fault for the situation but his peers hold an equal onus due to their reckless action.

 

PS. For the record, seeking a diplomatic solution does not equal inaction.

 

You can't expect a character who has only had a few books to be explored to have the same development as a pair of characters who have been around since the Thrawn Trilogy.

 

Of course I can. All the names I mentioned were known friends to the Solos who existed with 4 years of their original appearance. Ben first showed up in 2001. It's 2012. That's over a decade and I can hardly name two actual friends of his.

 

As to friends and family:

 

I know who his family is, thanks. And yet, you offered no friend who I did not mention. What does this tell us about Ben? Or about the treatment of his character? It certainly is indicative of something. I'd argue it is reflective of a general diminishing of scope and scale in Star Wars novels and media. Del Rey's push to rush from one big series to the next, skip time fast, and omit proper development have left us with characters who are near non entities. It is only by happier circumstances that we are finally seeing them take significant risks on oneshot character novels finally.

Edited October 1, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[ProfessorWalsh]

PS. For the record, seeking a diplomatic solution does not equal inaction.

 

I am reminded of a conversation someone in Marvel once had with the Watcher:

 

"You always say that you cannot interfere, that you cannot take action, yet you give us orders and you give us intel, I don't understand why you can't help us directly once in a while! Why the cloak and dagger?"

 

To which the Watcher replied:

 

"Contrary to what some people believe talking is not taking action."

[ProfessorWalsh]

The theme of OT was the redemption of Darth Vader.

 

now that discussion can move onto a thread about the future.

 

I am not looking forward to Crucible because Denning does a very poor Luke.

 

The theme of the OT wasn't the redemption of Darth Vader. The theme of the OT was the classic Hero's journey regarding Luke Skywalker. George Lucas didn't even know Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were the same person until he was halfway through writing Episode V and initially Episode V was supposed to end with Anakin Skywalker showing up to rescue Luke Skywalker from Darth Vader.

Edited July 18, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Tuscad]

initially Episode V was supposed to end with Anakin Skywalker showing up to rescue Luke Skywalker from Darth Vader.

I had never heard that before that would have been cool, what we have is better, but that still would have been a neat suprise.

[AlyxDinas]

"Contrary to what some people believe talking is not taking action."

 

*Sigh* I just...can't. It's like a moth to flame. The point I'm making, which soared over your head, is that we do not even see an true attempt made. There are victories greater than merely the conquering of an enemy. Considering the mixed messages of LOTF, it it tremendously unfortunate that we don't appear to see any appreciable growth by our heroes.

 

Contrary to what the Watcher so tritely believes, action takes many forms. Talking might be talking but that quote only makes sense if we're asking for the Jedi it negotiate and make peace with Daala here, which we're not. We're asking them to show some degree of mental acumen and do something other than go with the path of least resistance in deposing of a foe for once. Because each time they've failed to even try, our heroes end up looking like assassins and gangsters. That we've had two consecutive series in which our protagonists, at best and being charitable with our assessment, make halfhearted overtures at diplomacy (or in this case even, to borrow from your banal quotation, effective cloak and dagger) before they immediately seek the martial solution is insane.

 

Hell, I don't care if Jacen dies unredeemed. I don't care if there's coup against Daala. I care that the story makes those things make sense. That the context makes those action something truly necessary and compelling. But nothing in FOTJ supports its claim that the Jedi had to act they way they did for any other reason besides petty vendetta. We should always hold our heroes to higher standards. That's what makes them heroic. That's what makes them inspiring and worth rooting for.

 

You always act, no matter who brings up the notion, be it myself or another reader who has the exact same problems, that making Daala face proper and legitimate justice in a government predicated upon justice as a principle is some type of grand mistake but the truth is that it's a vindication and for once, we had a prime opportunity to not only show our heroes as just as politically and judicially savvy as their enemy but outright better morally. We had a chance to see why the GA was worth fighting for at all. And the series failed to follow through on what it had set up. On what it easily could have accomplished and delivered.

 

FOTJ already has a beast that needed to be slain: Abeloth. (We'll ignore for a moment that the text doesn't even turn Abeloth into an effective villain..) And I mean, literally, a beast. A force of nature whose mere existence necessitates that it be killed like some monster of legend or tear the very veil of the cosmos. A supposedly Lovecraftian horror who could strike insanity in the minds of foes. The series was not lacking for climactic action. Luke vs. physical Force god is just about as damn exciting as it can get. It doesn't need to counter balance that with the B Plot: "Boorish Order with utterly forgettable Jedi act like a weapons wielding cabal of hypocrites and children."

 

I hope that this new entry lives up to it's name. I really do. These people need a crucible. A severe test which actually smelts and reforges them into people who are worth looking up to again.

 

The theme of the OT wasn't the redemption of Darth Vader. The theme of the OT was the classic Hero's journey regarding Luke Skywalker.

 

And yet, the hero's journey, in this case the Campbellian Monomyth, literally has a moment in which reconciliation is a major step. One of the key moments in the Monomyth is Atonement with the Father. An encounter with a creature of power and perhaps sin (even a life/death figure), more often than not a literal father or father figure. And the hero overcomes this step by engaging in a desolation of ego, by placing faith and trust in the father figure. Transcending fear and reconciling with this entity. This is often done when they have no other resources. Luke does this the moment that he stops his assault on Vader, renounces the dark side, and declares himself a Jedi.

 

In fact, ROTJ so closely follows the monomyth that our apotheosis analogue occurs almost immediately, followed by the granting of the ultimate boon. This is the moment where Luke is writhing near death at the hands of the Emperor's lighting and the moment when Vader is purified and redeemed. And it is compassion that is our ultimate boon. It is the thing that Luke is supposed to bring back with him when he crosses the return threshold.

 

That this moment completes two journeys: Luke's and Anakin's, is extremely telling when it comes to understanding the IP. The completion of two quests: one external and one internal, hinges upon a son's forgiveness and trust of his father and the father's innate, eternal love for his child.

Edited July 18, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[ProfessorWalsh]

You always act, no matter who brings up the notion, be it myself or another reader who has the exact same problems, that making Daala face proper and legitimate justice in a government predicated upon justice as a principle is some type of grand mistake but the truth is that it's a vindication and for once, we had a prime opportunity to not only show our heroes as just as politically and judicially savvy as their enemy but outright better morally. We had a chance to see why the GA was worth fighting for at all. And the series failed to follow through on what it had set up. On what it easily could have accomplished and delivered.

 

Actually no. I'd have loved to see Daala face "legal" justice... What I wouldn't want to see is the Jedi being the ones who make her face "legal" justice. That is what you don't understand.

 

Jedi are not supposed to play political games. They aren't supposed to sit down and talk politics when people are dying or being threatened. That isn't the way of the Jedi and has never been the way of the Jedi. There is a reason why the Jedi are famed negotiators and it isn't because they talk until a solution is presented.

 

The Jedi, in every medium we have ever seen, are fair, but also make it clear from the word "Go" that they hold all of the cards. The Jedi have a term for this, "Aggressive negotiation."

 

The Jedi were very diplomatic, and rightly so, until their temple was attacked by Daala's Mandos. Once that happened the Jedi should have, Hamner included, said, "Okay. Galactic Alliance. Natassi Daala is the one who sent those Mandalorians. They murdered a child on our doorstep. You have seventy two hours to remove her from power or we are removing her from power."

 

Hamner was too weak to show any spine at all when facing down Daala.

 

What you don't seem to get is that once that line was crossed action was demanded. It is your attachment to a certain ideal that is clouding you on this. Diplomacy works until it has been shown that the person pulling the strings is more or less untouchable... Daala not being tossed out right then and there showed to me, diplomatically, that Daala was untouchable.

[jtjohnson]

I'm just going to put out there what I think is the biggest flaw in the FOTJ, Dalla as head of the GA. She is a mass murdering war criminal, how is it that no one has thought about that. It would be like a high ranking Nazi being elected President of the United States. the series was written like the average citizen had no clue who she was.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I'm just going to put out there what I think is the biggest flaw in the FOTJ, Dalla as head of the GA. She is a mass murdering war criminal, how is it that no one has thought about that. It would be like a high ranking Nazi being elected President of the United States. the series was written like the average citizen had no clue who she was.

 

Blame that on Karen Traviss and the LotF series. That is the series where that happened. Traviss felt that Daala as a woman who hated Jedi was the best choice of a leader for the GAG.

[jtjohnson]

Seriously, your blaming her for something that had to be approved by someone higher up the Lucas Arts food chain before it was published. Karen Traviss is not solely responsible for the mediocrity that has befallen the Star Wars novels in the last few years, it's those currently in charge. It drives me nuts when someone blames an author for something they don't like and not the people responsible for approving what they write.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Seriously, your blaming her for something that had to be approved by someone higher up the Lucas Arts food chain before it was published. Karen Traviss is not solely responsible for the mediocrity that has befallen the Star Wars novels in the last few years, it's those currently in charge. It drives me nuts when someone blames an author for something they don't like and not the people responsible for approving what they write.

 

Lucas Arts isn't as controlling as you think. Authors don't have to get every single thing pre-approved and who the Supreme Chancellor is is not on the list of "must contact Lucas for approval" items I am pretty sure. In this case we know that particular change (just like much of the Mando crap in LotF, and the death of Mara Jade) was one that originated with Traviss.