Choose Sentinel over Guardian AC if you are a hardcore PvPer.

[Ashuranrx]

I have played a Jedi Guardian (main), a Gunslinger, a Sith Sorcerer, a Mercenary, and a Jedi Sentinel in endgame PvP. I want to advise those who are rolling or rerolling Jedi Knight to choose the Sentinel AC over Guardian if they are into hardcore PvP.

 

Here are the reasons:

 

1. Tank specs are squishy in PvP, even in tank gear. Pyrotechs have super high burst elemental tech attacks that bypass defense, shield, and armor. And they don’t need to set up their burst damage; they can burst on the fly. High rating ranked teams on my server usually stack at least 2-3 of this class and spec. They coordinate focus fire on you and you are down in flames. It is actually a common strategy on my server to burst down tanks first with pyrotechs. Because once the tanks went down, the healers will get chewed easily by everyone else without guard. Defensive cooldowns have 3 minute cooldown and are only 10s long. They are not enough to save you from the fire.

 

2. Stacking bomb spec Mara/Jug is another effective popular strategies used by high rating teams often in rated WZ. They coordinate simultaneous smashes against tanks and their guarded healers. This is especially devastating to tanks because the tanks will take a big smash upfront and extra damage from guarded smash damage. Now multiply this big burst by 2 or 3 smashing Mara/Jug and the tanks go down fast.

 

3. Guardians are still good in Huttball with a friendly leap. But tanks spec is not required to do this effectively. You can be just as effective as dps spec in tank stance (temporarily) to carry and pass the Huttball. Also Guardians are actually not the best ball carrier, the best one is shadow tank backed by Sentinel speed buff.

 

4. Shields are near useless in PvP. Pvpers on the PvP forums have calculated that shields are only effective in PvP when the shield chance and absorption amount is at 40%+, but that requires too much secondary stat investment and will gimp your other stats severely, which is not worth it. Shields can also be pushed off with high crit attacks (from procs and cooldowns), in addition to being bypass by force, tech attacks, and elemental/internal damage. The best defense in PvP is stack HP, and then some defense if you must. Defense is only one secondary stats investment while shield is two.

 

It is better to spec DPS as a Guardian for rated PvP, but Sentinel is better at DPS in RWZ than Guardian because:

 

1. Rebuke provides better damage mitigation against all damage types. A sentinel is actually tankier than a defensive Guardian with Rebuke up, and Rebuke can be up 50% of the time. Rebuke reduces elemental and internal damage, which is better than Guardians in fighting against stacking Pyrotechs in RWZ.

 

2. Sentinels can spec Defensive Roll, which reduces AoE damage by additional 30%. This is a must have skill in RWZ. It will be your saving grace in fights against stacking bomb Mara/Jugs.

 

3. Sentinels can escape focus fire with Force Camouflage. Guard by the Force is great too at buying 5 seconds against zerg rushing a node/door.

 

4. Sentinels are better than killing healers.

 

To sum it up, tanks suck at mitigating damage in PvP, which makes Guardian better to go DPS spec in RWZ. But Sentinels are better than Guardians in DPS and mitigating damage in PvP. Therefore, Sentinels are the better AC if you want to go hardcore PvP. Guardians don’t suck, just that tanks don’t work well in RWZ right now, therefore their ceiling is not as high as Sentinels in PvP. This may all change when BW increases level cap later in the year. But for now, Sentinel is the better choice for PvP.

 

P.S. If you want to another alternative, I would recommend Gunslinger for PvP. I played Sharpshooter spec in RWZ, because AoE damage reduction and shorter cool down Hunker Down is a must. Don’t bother kiting melee trains. It is impossible to kite multiple melees flying at you with Mara speed buff regardless of spec as a GS. Instead, stack the GS on top of each other with Hunker down and coordinate focus fire. One time, we had 3 SS GS stack together and focus fire. Melee trains couldn’t touch us with triple knockback root. AoE were ineffective against us with Hunker Down. And we were dropping a guy every 5 seconds with coordinate focus fire and unpredictable burst. That strategy was every effective against Pyrotech stack and Bomb mara/Jug stack teams.

[Draqsko]

I think you are forgetting the role of a tank in PVP.. Hint: It's not to "tank" damage you are recieving.

 

The role of the tank in PVP is to mitigate the damage others are recieving. That means using guard, using taunts, using CCs and pushes/knockbacks. And your primary task is mitigating the damage that the healer is recieving, thereby keeping the healer alive longer to heal the DPS..

 

Tanks don't die easily, unless they are focused and don't have a healer. Otherwise they do all right if they know how to play and how to fulfill their role. Some of us still take enjoyment from racking up 200-300k protection and making DPS cry about not killing anyone.

 

PS. I've "tanked" 6 members of the other team, entirely. And that included 2 sentinels and 2 PTs, but they completely ignored my healer and focused on the person interrupting their cap in VS, me. They couldn't kill me and it was rather hilarious.

[Ashuranrx]

I can have 200-300k protection points and 200k-300k damage done at the same time regularly too in normal warzones. That is not hard for any decent hybrid tank to achieve. I can also get similar results against lower rating teams in rated warzones.

 

But against top rated teams in rated warzone, tanks can easily be countered by stacking Pyrotechs and bomb Mara/Jug. Yes, tanks can mitigate damage done to the guarded friends through taunts and CC and guard. But the thing is that the top rated teams won’t even bother attacking your guarded friend, they will just mow down the tank instead with sheer overwhelming focus and coordinated burst DPS. And once the tank is down, the unguarded healer is an easy kill.

 

And when I said top rated teams, I am not just talking about a team of full WH geared with augments. I am talking about a team of full WH geared with augments, AND customized mods and enhancements. (Ex: Pyrotechs ripped out mods and enhancements with accuracy and replaced them with crit, surge, and power from other classes’ WH gear to achieve optimal stat performance. Yes, they grinded WH twice or 3 times for their PvP set.) The sheer coordinated offensive and focus fired damage from these optimal geared skilled pyrotechs cannot be mitigated or healed through. 70% of my HP was gone in 3s as soon as I stepped into the fight, then I died soon after.

 

Same with the Mara/Jug bomb teams, they actually use the guard mechanic against the tank. Smash bombs cannot be defended or shielded against, Shi-Cho has passive armor penetration. I often got smashed for 3.5 – 4k + another 2.5k – 3k from guarded damage, and multiply that by 3 and that is about 18k-20k of burst on me and I get finished off quickly after the burst.

 

In the current mechanics of the game, defensive stats are inferior to offensive stats because:

1. Defensive stats can be bypass, offensive stats cannot. Offensive stats can be lowered with debuff, but never bypass.

2. There are no counter to some offensive stats. Such as:

Surge - this is a mechanic that increases crit damage, but there are no mechanics to lower crit damage receive.

Crit - this is a mechanic that increases crit chance, but there are no mechanics to lower crit chance on being attacked.

Armor Penetration - There are debuffs on armor and ignore armor mechanics, but there is no mechanic to counter them.

 

I am not saying Guardians suck at PvP. I just want to inform players that if you are a hardcore PvPer and want to compete with top rated pvp teams in rated warzone, don’t pick Guardian because the current tanking mechanics of the game can be easily bypass with pyrotechs, or work against you with AoE burst. This means that Guardians are better off specing DPS for rated WZ, and because of that then you may as well pick Sentinel because Sentinel can DPS better, mitigate AoE damage better, and escape focus fire.

[GrahamAker]

I disagree with this thread for one reason; CC. I currently play a DPS Vigilance spec Guardian and have played a Marauder in the past; and I have to say that on the whole, I prefer Guardian for the huge amount of CC that they have over Sentinels.

 

Force Push; This move can insta-kill if used right. That alone, is huge. It also can be used to push a carrier/capturer away, and it resets guardian leap as well as give you the distance to leap again. And if you've spec'd into vigilance for remitting; then you've earned the 20% damage & 4 second immunity to CC effects(yet they still will affect your resolve guage) with that leap.

 

Freezing Force; This is a move I see people forgetting to use most games, but it's an AOE slow which in a game like hutball or Void Star; its a great move that doesn't build Resolve.

 

Force Stasis: While Sentinels can do this; If you choose to spec into it, a defensive Guardian can use it without channeling. Which means you can, allow yourself and ally to attack someone while completely removing them from combat for a short time.

 

Awe: If Guardians continue into the upper levels of Vigilance, they can reduce the time for their AOE stun as well as give themselves a flat 4% damage reduction.

 

Warding Call & Taunt: Costs nothing in terms of focus, reduces enemies damage, and earns you medals.

 

Frankly the Guardian is a competitor simply because they control the field better. I'm not saying the Sentinel isn't good in PvP, it definitely is these days, but the Sentinel simply can't do what a Guardian can and saying that PVPers shouldn't play them is a fallacy.

Edited July 13, 2012 by GrahamAker

[Draqsko]

And when I said top rated teams, I am not just talking about a team of full WH geared with augments. I am talking about a team of full WH geared with augments, AND customized mods and enhancements. (Ex: Pyrotechs ripped out mods and enhancements with accuracy and replaced them with crit, surge, and power from other classes’ WH gear to achieve optimal stat performance. Yes, they grinded WH twice or 3 times for their PvP set.) The sheer coordinated offensive and focus fired damage from these optimal geared skilled pyrotechs cannot be mitigated or healed through. 70% of my HP was gone in 3s as soon as I stepped into the fight, then I died soon after.

 

And you think that you are restricted to using base PVP gear against those pyrotechs? You do realize you can rip and augment your gear too right? 70% of your HP was gone in 2 GCDs, how much hp did you have 16k? Did you know Unremitting, Warding Call, and Focused Defense buffed with Commanding Awe work against all damage, and that stacked together have 79% DR for the first 4 seconds after a leap?

 

Same with the Mara/Jug bomb teams, they actually use the guard mechanic against the tank. Smash bombs cannot be defended or shielded against, Shi-Cho has passive armor penetration. I often got smashed for 3.5 – 4k + another 2.5k – 3k from guarded damage, and multiply that by 3 and that is about 18k-20k of burst on me and I get finished off quickly after the burst.

 

You know guard has a 15 m range, and that it is easy to make it impossible to lolsweepbomb both the healer AND the tank at that range? If 3 Lolsweep bombers leap on me I know I'm hitting one key, Awe, and then running. They can't bomb you when they are all mezzed.

 

It's great that you find Sentinels easier to play in PVP than Guardians, but to stay that Guardians are useless in PVP is a big fallacy. In those situations you described above, your Sentinel is dying as fast or faster than a Guardian, unless you pop a defensive cooldown, and Guardians have cooldowns as well. There's a reason why the best teams in rated put 1 or 2 guardians on their team. Here's a hint: It's certainly not for their damage output. Because forcing the other team to burn through 2 hp bars to kill a healer, means your team's DPS has free reign to burn through the other side while they are FFing the tank and healer.

[Ashuranrx]

I had 23k HP. It is pointless for me to rip out mods and replace them unless there is something to mitigate elemental damage. Defense, Shield, Absorption are bypassed. I know in theory there are a lot of cooldowns to mitigate elemental damage, but that is once every 3 minutes, it is not enough to counter pyrotech's no-setup required burst at anytime, all the time. The WZ is 15 minutes long. You may not believe it until you experience it yourself, but that is how much damage the focus fire of deck-out geared pyrotechs bring.

 

In theory, yes you can stay at 15m range of the healer and not get bomb. In practice, how do you do that? The enemy team is not dumb, otherwise they wouldn't make it to the top rating. They starts off wrecking the healer with other attacks, usually in addition to an assassin or some other classes focus firing the healer. At this point the healer is trying to stay alive as the best as he can while kiting. In this chaotic situation, who can really determine the range is what? Of course my job is to stick close to the healer and taunt, CC, and do my tank thing. Then out of nowhere, the 3 smash guys all hit obliterate and smash. Unless the healer has an instant aoe heal that can crit for 6k, I don't see how tank can counter bomb strategy in practice.

 

Guardians are not useless. It is more like tanks can be overpowered with sheer stacked offensive power at a certain threshold. And once that threshold is reached, then tanks have little to offer to the team. Because of this, then it is better for Guardians to spec DPS in these RWZ. And because Sentinels can do DPS better than Guardians, then it is wiser to choose Sentinels over Guardians if you plan to going that far into RWZ.

 

If you absolutely want to play a tank in RWZ and want to go far, then I would recommend Shadow. Shadow tanks have Resilience, a 5s buff that removes all debuffs on the tank and makes the Shadow immune to all force and tech attacks for the duration, and it is only a 1 minute cooldown ability. This ability can counter Pyrotech focus fire and smash bombs better than any ability Guardian has with a little practice and intuition in its use. Shadows can also stealth and force speed, which are always a plus.

 

I am not speaking against Guardians. I love my Guardian because it was my 1st character, and my only character that has discovered all datacrons. I am just advising players what the end of the PvP tunnel is like for anyone who wants to go that far. If you want to stick it out on Guardian and wait for future changes, then kudos to your dedication. Who know, the game may change a lot once level cap is increased later this year. MMOs are always evolving.