High End Tanking discussion.

[Neibbin]

At what point does the diminishing return on Defense, Shield, and Absorb render Endurance or another stat more viable?

I have a 50 Jugg Tank with the following stats when buffed and under stim:

2169 Endurance = 24435

571 Defense = 29.16% (Caps at 30%)

447 Shield = 45.57% (Caps at 50%)

333 Absorb = 46.32% (Caps at 50%)

My Squishiness factor is .28059

 

Taking into account the available gear and mods, I have noticed a couple things:

1.I cannot raise Shield any higher as the shield stat is tied directly to the enhancement.

2.At 150 Accuracy, I rarely miss (less than 1%), and Threat and Damage are not an issue.

3.At peak gear itemization, Squishiness moves to .27865.

4.There are several mods and enhancements that favor greater endurance over Defense and Absorb.

 

My questions:

1.At what point does Endurance or another stat outweigh the increase I can gain from moving squishiness 2 tenths of 1% or .194%

2.At what point does Endurance or another stat outweigh the diminishing returns on defensive based stats?

[Zaioss]

Firstly, in regards to you own stats, drop the Accuracy and get your shield and Absorb to 50% each, thats far more important then Defence or Stam to start with, and threat is a non-issue, especially with how taunt works in SWTOR. Aim for 20% Def, 50% Shield/Absorb. Once you hit those numbers, aim for 27% Defence with a stim active, this will give you 30% Defence during combat when using Retaliation.

 

Once you hit 27% Def, 50% Shield/Absorb, my initial thinking was to start stacking Stam to help soak up any non-avoidable/mitigated dmg (ie Force, Tech, Internal, Elemental dmg), but thinking back over it, im looking at pushing my Shield and Absorb beyond the 50% marks instead of the extra Stam due to how fights currently work (nightmare mode may change this).

 

Currently most/all the "scary" parts of each encounter when looking at EC HM can be avoided/mitigated by Defence and Shielding, and reducing those dmg periods is going to be of more use to you and your healers then having more health, but getting hit harder. The parts of the encounters im talking about are things like Zorn's Berserk phase, Tanking Kephess himself, etc

 

So, essentially, any dmg you can avoid/mitigate is basically extra health, so your getting the best of both worlds, while going for pure Stam means, yes you have more health, but your getting hit harder, so its not really that useful.

 

Ideally on your characters stat sheet, you can hit in BIS gear around 27% Defence, 53% Shield, 55% Absorb.

 

(Big thanks to Aoroc from Cali Killed Nox for helping me with alot of this info)

Edited July 4, 2012 by Zaioss

[Craxim]

Edit: Deleted. Edited July 4, 2012 by Craxim

[SnipeAlott]

Currently at 2104 endu = 23778 HP

 

659 defense = 30.69%

656 shield = 52.16%

412 abs = 50.57%

 

currenty dropped all accu so I'm at the base 94% (skilled), I could drop shield for accu on 2/3 augments and get to the 150 u describe since I could afford to lose some shield.

 

Currently testing if it's enough to hold threat.

 

What's ur strength at? I'm at 1621

[Craxim]

Currently at 2104 endu = 23778 HP

 

659 defense = 30.69%

656 shield = 52.16%

412 abs = 50.57%

 

currenty dropped all accu so I'm at the base 94% (skilled), I could drop shield for accu on 2/3 augments and get to the 150 u describe since I could afford to lose some shield.

 

Currently testing if it's enough to hold threat.

 

What's ur strength at? I'm at 1621

 

With threat changes, using your free attack and normal taunting off CD could hold aggro at this point. You should pull out of the skill for accuracy as well, it's pointless and as a tank, unnecessary.

[Elyx]

At what point does the diminishing return on Defense, Shield, and Absorb render Endurance or another stat more viable?

I have a 50 Jugg Tank with the following stats when buffed and under stim:

2169 Endurance = 24435

571 Defense = 29.16% (Caps at 30%)

447 Shield = 45.57% (Caps at 50%)

333 Absorb = 46.32% (Caps at 50%)

My Squishiness factor is .28059

 

Taking into account the available gear and mods, I have noticed a couple things:

1.I cannot raise Shield any higher as the shield stat is tied directly to the enhancement.

2.At 150 Accuracy, I rarely miss (less than 1%), and Threat and Damage are not an issue.

3.At peak gear itemization, Squishiness moves to .27865.

4.There are several mods and enhancements that favor greater endurance over Defense and Absorb.

 

My questions:

1.At what point does Endurance or another stat outweigh the increase I can gain from moving squishiness 2 tenths of 1% or .194%

2.At what point does Endurance or another stat outweigh the diminishing returns on defensive based stats?

 

What's your gear mix at this point Nebin? rakata/campaign/black hole....are you using set bonuses, or mixing and matching?

[DiLune]

What's your gear mix at this point Nebin? rakata/campaign/black hole....are you using set bonuses, or mixing and matching?

 

Forget aesthetics and wear tionese/columi head/legs/hands/boots (with a small nod to looks by choosing your chest piece) so you get the set bonuses anyway. The shells keep em.

[Neibbin]

What's your gear mix at this point Nebin? rakata/campaign/black hole....are you using set bonuses, or mixing and matching?

 

I am wearing mostly Campaign with a couple Rakata. I have both set bonuses covered. This question assumed the set bonuses; it was more focused on decisions that arise at the top end of gear when you are at or very near the cap ratings in defensive based stats (Defense, shield, Absorb).

 

Thank you Zaioss and by extension Aoroc, you answered me perfectly.

I haven’t had any issues in HM EC, I was just looking to fine tune the tank a little bit more. It appears we asked the same question regarding hp vs. mitigation. I appreciate Zaioss's explanation that mitigation = > HP.

 

I considered a "test" after I posted my initial question:

The largest possible hit I should concern myself with is my full HP or roughly 25,000 (this is also evident by the largest hit raid members have reported from an EC Boss), fully acknowledging that some can be higher but for the sake of this discussion I’m going with 25,000.

If the normalized squishiness factor is around .27, I would expect the damage I would take is: 6750 (This seems about right from my experience). It would not be cost efficient to swap out defensive rating for additional HP as you couldn’t get enough HP to make a difference.

 

I’ll be dropping accuracy, I had somewhat came to the conclusion that it was a wasted stat on my own, I was just holding on to it for now as a rage building tool (affects 1 move).

 

As for the high level Jugg tanking discussion, I haven’t seen many highly geared Juggs, let alone much legitimate discussion beyond the general fare of 14%, 30%, 30%.

I would like to see a spot where we could discuss the fine tune issues and theory crafting. Does anyone have a recommended site or forum? Preferably a spot where those of us Juggs that are clearing content can talk without being overwhelmed with the rookies that can’t figure out how to tank as a Jugg?

[Craxim]

I am wearing mostly Campaign with a couple Rakata. I have both set bonuses covered. This question assumed the set bonuses; it was more focused on decisions that arise at the top end of gear when you are at or very near the cap ratings in defensive based stats (Defense, shield, Absorb).

 

Thank you Zaioss and by extension Aoroc, you answered me perfectly.

I haven’t had any issues in HM EC, I was just looking to fine tune the tank a little bit more. It appears we asked the same question regarding hp vs. mitigation. I appreciate Zaioss's explanation that mitigation = > HP.

 

I considered a "test" after I posted my initial question:

The largest possible hit I should concern myself with is my full HP or roughly 25,000 (this is also evident by the largest hit raid members have reported from an EC Boss), fully acknowledging that some can be higher but for the sake of this discussion I’m going with 25,000.

If the normalized squishiness factor is around .27, I would expect the damage I would take is: 6750 (This seems about right from my experience). It would not be cost efficient to swap out defensive rating for additional HP as you couldn’t get enough HP to make a difference.

 

I’ll be dropping accuracy, I had somewhat came to the conclusion that it was a wasted stat on my own, I was just holding on to it for now as a rage building tool (affects 1 move).

 

As for the high level Jugg tanking discussion, I haven’t seen many highly geared Juggs, let alone much legitimate discussion beyond the general fare of 14%, 30%, 30%.

I would like to see a spot where we could discuss the fine tune issues and theory crafting. Does anyone have a recommended site or forum? Preferably a spot where those of us Juggs that are clearing content can talk without being overwhelmed with the rookies that can’t figure out how to tank as a Jugg?

 

I don't know of such a heaven off the top of my head, but I'm always open to messages or mumble if you ever want to ask anything or theorycraft. If you find such a place, I'd love to be informed about it.

[Raekor]

My guildy posted this when my alt Jugg hit 50 and I asked for tips: http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/02/guides-shield-versus-defense.html

 

Is that something you are looking for?

[Crazedbinary]

Hey all - Great post! I am too tanking in EC HM and was wondering what you guys are using for relics. I have heard mixed feeling on the new PVP relics compared to campaign. Any advice around this?

[Craxim]

Hey all - Great post! I am too tanking in EC HM and was wondering what you guys are using for relics. I have heard mixed feeling on the new PVP relics compared to campaign. Any advice around this?

 

The passive stats from the new PvP relics are BiS. Juggs have good cooldowns, you don't need a defensive use, and you'll benefit more from a passive 100ish defense and/or shield than you would from the Power use. I personally have 1 defensive and 1 shield, to help balance my gear as I'm extremely close to BiS mods, already at full Campaign. You should look at your stats to see if you need defense or shield, or if you took the defense, could you augment somewhere else to get absorb, etc.

[DiLune]

So, what are the "best' non-PvP relics? How does the Matrix cube stack up now that its been buffed a little bit?

[Craxim]

So, what are the "best' non-PvP relics? How does the Matrix cube stack up now that its been buffed a little bit?

 

The best non PvP relics would most likely be the Power use and the Defense use, provided you used them off CD throughout the entire fight. Matrix cube would be an acceptable alternative to the PvP if you still wanted passive defensive stats, but it isn't anywhere as good as the PvP ones, and in my opinion, not good enough to justify itself.

[DiLune]

What about the Shield proc relic? Or is the lower End its issue?

 

Also, is there a way to set it up so that when I use Sundering Assault, it also uses whichever relic isn't on CD? (I was terrible about use relics in that other game as well, so I usually preferred the passive ones.)

[Craxim]

What about the Shield proc relic? Or is the lower End its issue?

 

Also, is there a way to set it up so that when I use Sundering Assault, it also uses whichever relic isn't on CD? (I was terrible about use relics in that other game as well, so I usually preferred the passive ones.)

 

There is no way to do that kind of macro in game, you might be able to write a macro like that via a logitech keyboard or the razer naga. As far as the shield proc relic, we looked into that in the logs and found that it's effect is very minimal, and for Juggs, really not worth it. You'd be better off in the long run taking the passive stats from the PvP relics or even the matrix cube at that point.

[DiLune]

Okay, that's pretty much what I thought on the macro front. I dislike PvP and the likelihood that BW nerfs those relics in the future seems high.

 

Thanks for the advice.

[Craxim]

Okay, that's pretty much what I thought on the macro front. I dislike PvP and the likelihood that BW nerfs those relics in the future seems high.

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

Sure thing, anytime. As far as the PvP relics go, the Champion ones would still be pretty good, and the BM ones only take like 5 games each if you're willing to grind it out for a few hours you can get them, but I agree, I think they will get nerfed soon, I don't think BW wants something PvP to be so BiS especially for DPS in PvE.

[Demwarala]

At what point does the diminishing return on Defense, Shield, and Absorb render Endurance or another stat more viable?

I have a 50 Jugg Tank with the following stats when buffed and under stim:

2169 Endurance = 24435

571 Defense = 29.16% (Caps at 30%)

447 Shield = 45.57% (Caps at 50%)

333 Absorb = 46.32% (Caps at 50%)

My Squishiness factor is .28059

 

my stats are:

2185 Endurance = 24595

565 Defense = 29.05%

742 Shield = 50.41%

343 Absorb = 46.85%

 

still missing 2 armorings for bracers/wrists and 3 more mods to finish my setup. i do have to say, i feel very comfortable. i don't play a full immortal, like the cali killed nox jn. but, my healers just luv me. i got full tank gear + dps gear and i'm able to fullfill every roll both of them (even @dps i'm at top 2 most of the time, lol). jn tank or dps is pretty awsome now, geared+skilled of course.

 

edit:

my goal will be like 28% dc, 52% sc and like 50% absorb. then max out endu preparing nm denova. thats it i believe.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Demwarala

[Craxim]

my stats are:

2185 Endurance = 24595

565 Defense = 29.05%

742 Shield = 50.41%

343 Absorb = 46.85%

 

still missing 2 armorings for bracers/wrists and 3 more mods to finish my setup. i do have to say, i feel very comfortable. i don't play a full immortal, like the cali killed nox jn. but, my healers just luv me. i got full tank gear + dps gear and i'm able to fullfill every roll both of them (even @dps i'm at top 2 most of the time, lol). jn tank or dps is pretty awsome now, geared+skilled of course.

 

edit:

my goal will be like 28% dc, 52% sc and like 50% absorb. then max out endu preparing nm denova. thats it i believe.

 

Don't want to tell you your business, but your healers would love you even more if you tried for more absorb over endurance, you'd take less damage over the entirety of the fight. Just a suggestion.

[Demwarala]

Don't want to tell you your business, but your healers would love you even more if you tried for more absorb over endurance, you'd take less damage over the entirety of the fight. Just a suggestion.

 

like i said, still not finished, yet. but i hear you. the problem i see is, if it's worth it dancing at the cap with such a small improvent, instead of pushing endu a little bit more, you know. i believe the amount of endu you can get is better than tweaking absorb above 50%.

 

my goal is:

- def rating as high as possible (somth above 27%, more like 28%)

- shield-rating as high as possible (somth above 50%, more like 52-53%)

- absorb as high as i'm ok with it ^^ and 50% is definitely ok for me

 

i think we're both outgeared for the current content in every matter, anyway ^^

Edited July 8, 2012 by Demwarala

[Craxim]

like i said, still not finished, yet. but i hear you. the problem i see is, if it's worth it dancing at the cap with such a small improvent, instead of pushing endu a little bit more, you know. i believe the amount of endu you can get is better than tweaking absorb above 50%.

 

my goal is:

- def rating as high as possible (somth above 27%, more like 28%)

- shield-rating as high as possible (somth above 50%, more like 52-53%)

- absorb as high as i'm ok with it ^^ and 50% is definitely ok for me

 

i think we're both outgeared for the current content in every matter, anyway ^^

 

Correct we are outgeared, but for all we know this "Nightmare" of a NMM might just wreck tanks, and we're the spikyest of all the tanks because of our defense chance. My absorb is around 54% and soon to be at 56%, while keeping 27% defense and 52% shield. You will see a decrease in damage taken, but more importantly, you won't feel as spiky. It'll be more like....dodge, dodge, hit, and less like....dodge, dodge, ****ed. Over the course of a fight that is. I agree that Endurance is still necessary, I choose to balance it out by making sure I take (for the most part) high endurance mods/enhances while still trying to keep my %s fair. If I were to drop to the 53 str 31 Endur 42 absorb (i think that's what it is) mod, I could get another 3% absorb but I won't trade the Endurance for it.

[DiLune]

After having to endure a pious tank spouting off about having 30% def while his shield and absorb were 33% each and how my 27% defense (44/46) needed to come up, I am so glad to get back in here and see some real discussion.

[Demwarala]

Correct we are outgeared, but for all we know this "Nightmare" of a NMM might just wreck tanks, and we're the spikyest of all the tanks because of our defense chance. My absorb is around 54% and soon to be at 56%, while keeping 27% defense and 52% shield. You will see a decrease in damage taken, but more importantly, you won't feel as spiky. It'll be more like....dodge, dodge, hit, and less like....dodge, dodge, ****ed. Over the course of a fight that is. I agree that Endurance is still necessary, I choose to balance it out by making sure I take (for the most part) high endurance mods/enhances while still trying to keep my %s fair. If I were to drop to the 53 str 31 Endur 42 absorb (i think that's what it is) mod, I could get another 3% absorb but I won't trade the Endurance for it.

 

mhm ... still, i'm not comfortable with the idea of pushing absorb above 50%. absorb is a stat dependent on shield chance. even if you you're sitting at 52% shieldchance, there are prolly hits you'll get, wich are not shielded. so, the effective absorb isn't 50% anyway.

 

let's take a look at a simple scenario:

target may hit you for 10k dmg. now you shield the attack (after 2 rolls of determining the attack, which is another story anyway). let's say at 52% of the time i'll take 5k dmg with my 50% absorb, and you'll take 4.8k dmg with your absorb-ratings. since there's no skill with %-dmg i've encountered, yet. don't you think 500 more hp at 100% of the time would be more beneficial than the 200 less dmg taken at 52% of the time?

 

i mean, seriously. i'm not talking about 30% vs. 50% absorb, i'm talking about 50% absorb vs. 52% or 54% absorb, in combo with 28% def-chance + 52% shieldrating. the improvement is so small, that's better for your effective health to get more endu, like 50-80 or somth like that.

[DiLune]

That's the line I've been thinking on. At what point do extra HP outweigh extra Shield/Absorb or defense? They start to hit diminishing returns pretty hard but endurance is a linear progression (and helps against every form of attack.) I also assume there is going to be some form of overhealing already, so the healers can handle the extra HP pool. Edited July 10, 2012 by DiLune