Healing is fine, they said. Just gear up, they said.

[islander]

I have been a Merc healer since launch... We are perfectly fine. I can tank any single DPS for at least...well..forever actually.

 

If you cant see how Expertise favors healers, I will explain it to you..

DMG Bonus is completely cancelled out by DMG mitigation

Bonus healing is a pure bonus.

 

Not true. If PvP Trauma didn't exist, you'd be correct. They could just as easily take both PvP heal bonuses and trauma out, it'd be a negligible difference.

 

Also, technically speaking, PvP outgoing damage is slightly more then incoming DR.

 

Finally, stop people with the operative and merc crap. You guys are FINE. This is about the sorc/sages, who are simply not quite there. Skill can make up for it, but in the end, the scale's a bit imbalanced surviviability wise.

 

Also, sorc/sages complaining about our healing burst must be forgetting about bubble/armor. If it's available, that alone is an instacast 3k-ish heal. Combine it with a 4200-5000 hp critical hit on dark infusion, and innervate/resurg and within 5 seconds we can technically hit around (rough guess) 14k healing over that period.

Edited July 13, 2012 by islander

[Khoraji]

Not true. If PvP Trauma didn't exist, you'd be correct. They could just as easily take both PvP heal bonuses and trauma out, it'd be a negligible difference.

 

Also, technically speaking, PvP outgoing damage is slightly more then incoming DR.

 

Technically speaking no it isnt. (Do the math)

 

And what does Trauma have to do with this? Trauma is there to balance PvE healers and PvP healers. Boss dmg is way more than anything you will see in PvP.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Khoraji

[islander]

Technically speaking no it isnt. LRN2Math pls

 

And what does Trauma have to do with this? Trauma is there to balance PvE healers and PvP healers. Boss dmg is way more than anything you will see in PvP, how is that a hard concept to understand?

 

Fair point.

Edited July 13, 2012 by islander

[Khoraji]

Fair point. No need for insults, little boy.

 

I thought you were Dalin when I wrote that. Sry.

 

Also, its kind of Hypocritical to insult someone right after you call for no insults.

[islander]

I thought you were Dalin when I wrote that. Sry.

 

Also, its kind of Hypocritical to insult someone right after you call for no insults.

 

Of course it is, that was half the point. I removed it though after I saw you did the same.

 

edit: This is a pretty contentious thread, and I realize it's tough for everyone to occasionally not get caught up in it. My sorc is a pretty steady pvper (about 2 hours a night) and on the whole I find the class fine. It just needs some modest defensive improvements, and I do mean modest.

Edited July 13, 2012 by islander

[Khoraji]

 

also, sorc/sages complaining about our healing burst must be forgetting about bubble/armor. If it's available, that alone is an instacast 3k-ish heal. Combine it with a 4200-5000 hp critical hit on dark infusion, and innervate/resurg and within 5 seconds we can technically hit around (rough guess) 14k healing over that period.

 

thank you!

[islander]

thank you!

 

As I mentioned a couple pages ago, I run a 21 point build and you get a lot of mileage out of bubbles if you're vigilant and run with 2 piece pve shells. I tend to be a little less efficient with sorc healers as a main healer, but the synergy I have with operative or merc healers is outstanding.

 

Not to mention its annoying as all hell to have to burn through two different bubbles on my mara (there's a 13 second window where this can actually happen).

Edited July 13, 2012 by islander

[Khoraji]

Of course it is, that was half the point. I removed it though after I saw you did the same.

 

edit: This is a pretty contentious thread, and I realize it's tough for everyone to occasionally not get caught up in it. My sorc is a pretty steady pvper (about 2 hours a night) and on the whole I find the class fine. It just needs some modest defensive improvements, and I do mean modest.

 

Lol yea it is, already have a 1 day ban from this thread.

[dalin]

I have been a Merc healer since launch... We are perfectly fine. I can tank any single DPS for at least...well..forever actually.

 

If you cant see how Expertise favors healers, I will explain it to you..

DMG Bonus is completely cancelled out by DMG mitigation

Bonus healing is a pure bonus.

 

You should check your stats out. It might help you figure out you are wrong about expertise. Pre 1.2 it worked the way you describe.

 

My Stats from Expertise are:

DPS: 22.45% increase

Damage Reduction: 18.33%

Healing: 12.40%

 

I get a larger damage increase out of Expertise. End of story. So again, bonus damage is NOT canceleed out by Damage reduction. I don't think Sorcs need a major overhauls, we need a defensive CD or some tweaks to our spells for kiting.

 

Again Merc/Trooper/Ops/Smug healers are fine. This thread started with the OP mentioning the other specs, he changed it.

 

P.S. If you can't handle having a civilized conversation on these forums. Even if you do or don't agree, then stop bothering to post. No one wants to read you going, "boohoo, he doesn't agree with me."

[Astarica]

For the sub 30% case, it's not that Op's Surgical Probe heals some amazing amount of damage. It usually barely outpaces 1 person's DPS. The reason why it's powerful is because whenever anyone gets below 30% it's clear to everyone the optimal anti-heal strategy is 'interrupt everything'. You don't have to worry about fake casts or anything because you know the guy with 30% health is going to die in about 3 seconds if he can't get his heals off. Normally a DPS would have to decide maybe letting some heals like Benevolence slip through, or that interrupting a Healing Trance is risky (you need really good reflexes to risk using interrupt on that), but at 30% it doesn't matter. It's just 'see green bar, hit interrupt' because the other guy is going to be dead in the next 3 seconds if you just interrupted every green bar you see.

 

Since Sorcs do not have an interrupt immunity that pretty much makes them the weakest healer in this case. If you get a Healing Trance or Deliverance off you'll heal fine but you usually won't succeed or even have the time to finish casting a Deliverance even if no one interrupted you.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Astarica

[Astarica]

You should check your stats out. It might help you figure out you are wrong about expertise. Pre 1.2 it worked the way you describe.

 

My Stats from Expertise are:

DPS: 22.45% increase

Damage Reduction: 18.33%

Healing: 12.40%

 

I get a larger damage increase out of Expertise. End of story. So again, bonus damage is NOT canceleed out by Damage reduction. I don't think Sorcs need a major overhauls, we need a defensive CD or some tweaks to our spells for kiting.

 

Again Merc/Trooper/Ops/Smug healers are fine. This thread started with the OP mentioning the other specs, he changed it.

 

P.S. If you can't handle having a civilized conversation on these forums. Even if you do or don't agree, then stop bothering to post. No one wants to read you going, "boohoo, he doesn't agree with me."

 

If Expertise gives you +100% damage bonus and -100% damage taken, the +100% and -100% most certainly do not cancel each other out. You'd be taking 0 damage from anyone else wearing the same gear (and vice versa).

 

Defensive numbers are multiplicative while offensive numbers are only additive. That's why offensive numbers are bigger.

[Khoraji]

You should check your stats out. It might help you figure out you are wrong about expertise. Pre 1.2 it worked the way you describe.

 

My Stats from Expertise are:

DPS: 22.45% increase

Damage Reduction: 18.33%

Healing: 12.40%

 

I get a larger damage increase out of Expertise. End of story. So again, bonus damage is NOT canceleed out by Damage reduction.

 

I really need to find my thread explaining expertise because people still dont get it. Please do the math before just posting mis-information. Lets make it easy

 

PLAYER 1 does 1000 DMG to PLAYER 2

Bonus DMG(22%) = PLAYER 1 does 1220 DMG to PLAYER 2

Mitigation (18%), 18% of 1220 is 220 = PLAYER 1 still does 1000 DMG to PLAYER 2

 

see? Pre 1.2, DMG was actually being reduced the more expertise players had.

 

Again Merc/Trooper/Ops/Smug healers are fine. This thread started with the OP mentioning the other specs, he changed it.

 

you JUST said mercs were in the same boat...

[Astarica]

I really need to find my thread explaining expertise because people still dont get it. Please do the math before just posting mis-information. Lets make it easy

 

PLAYER 1 does 1000 DMG to PLAYER 2

Bonus DMG(22%) = PLAYER 1 does 1220 DMG to PLAYER 2

Mitigation (18%), 18% of 1220 is 220 = PLAYER 1 still does 1000 DMG to PLAYER 2

 

see? Pre 1.2, DMG was actually being reduced the more expertise players had.

 

.

 

The 1.2 model was not sustainable because say your expertise gets to 50%, then it's 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75 which is basically a 25% damage nerf, and on top of that you'd be healing about 40% more with a 50% healing bonus compared to the 10% before. In such a situation clearly no one would ever die and your strat for rated WZ would be to figure out a way to outbore the enemy team.

[Khoraji]

The 1.2 model was not sustainable because say your expertise gets to 50%, then it's 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75 which is basically a 25% damage nerf, and on top of that you'd be healing about 40% more with a 50% healing bonus compared to the 10% before. In such a situation clearly no one would ever die and your strat for rated WZ would be to figure out a way to outbore the enemy team.

 

Yup. Which is why they changed it so that Mitigation and Bonus DMG would cancel each other out perfectly...

 

Now what is going to happen 2 gear tiers from now when everyone has +20% healing and DMG is still being canceled out. I suspect massive "Nerf Healer" threads again.

[Astarica]

Yup. Which is why they changed it so that Mitigation and Bonus DMG would cancel each other out perfectly...

 

Now what is going to happen 2 gear tiers from now when everyone has +20% healing and DMG is still being canceled out. I suspect massive "Nerf Healer" threads again.

 

I think they just need to make it such that the max amount of expertise in any given era gives say 10% healing bonus forever. If max expertise right now is 1300 it gives 10% heal bonus. If it's 15000 an year from now it'll still give 10% healing bonus. The damage numbers can go up as high as needed since it's always possible for defense to cancel it out. Though of course you'll still have healers complain 'expertise sucks for healer, how come 10000 expertise gives you 900% damage increase but only 10% heal?" And someone will also post: "Expertise favors DPS, 10000 expertise gives 900% damage increase but only 90% damage reduction". So I guess Bioware can never win.

[Khoraji]

I think they just need to make it such that the max amount of expertise in any given era gives say 10% healing bonus forever. If max expertise right now is 1300 it gives 10% heal bonus. If it's 15000 an year from now it'll still give 10% healing bonus. The damage numbers can go up as high as needed since it's always possible for defense to cancel it out. Though of course you'll still have healers complain 'expertise sucks for healer, how come 10000 expertise gives you 900% damage increase but only 10% heal?" And someone will also post: "Expertise favors DPS, 10000 expertise gives 900% damage increase but only 90% damage reduction". So I guess Bioware can never win.

 

They will have to keep changing the healing equation for that to happen. Right now im at 1358 expertise which is getting close to 14% healing. If they dont change the formula after every new tier, it will get out of hand fast.

[dalin]

 

you JUST said mercs were in the same boat...

 

Also, yes Merc/Trooper, as well as DPS Sorcs are pretty crappy. Of course that isn't as big a deal since there's plenty of other DPS specs out there to play. Healers are limited in their selection. It's pretty much go Op/Smug or be bait for the melee train. Lots of fun.

 

That was the only time I mentioned mercs. I was talking about DPS. At the time we were talking about DPS classes. Or is there a different post you read? That's the only one time I remember mentioning Mercs.

[Khoraji]

Also, yes Merc/Trooper, as well as DPS Sorcs are pretty crappy. Of course that isn't as big a deal since there's plenty of other DPS specs out there to play. Healers are limited in their selection. It's pretty much go Op/Smug or be bait for the melee train. Lots of fun.

 

That was the only time I mentioned mercs. I was talking about DPS. At the time we were talking about DPS classes. Or is there a different post you read? That's the only one time I remember mentioning Mercs.

 

ahhh, my bad. I thought you meant healing merc/troopers as well as DPS.

[dalin]

ahhh, my bad. I thought you meant healing merc/troopers as well as DPS.

 

I'll take blame for that one. I should have typed DPS before merc/trooper. I knew their was a miscommunication somewhere.

[Khoraji]

I'll take blame for that one. I should have typed DPS before merc/trooper. I knew their was a miscommunication somewhere.

 

And I'll agree that ya'll need some type of small, defense ability. Maybe adding a 5 sec immunity to interupts to your bubble or something wierd like that. Just something to stop the interrupts. I know i LOVE when my resolve bar goes full and my shield is up. Im like, COOL! <GODMODE ACTIVE>, I can hold off 3 mara's at least for the duration.

[dalin]

And I'll agree that ya'll need some type of small, defense ability. Maybe adding a 5 sec immunity to interupts to your bubble or something wierd like that. Just something to stop the interrupts. I know i LOVE when my resolve bar goes full and my shield is up. Im like, COOL! <GODMODE ACTIVE>, I can hold off 3 mara's at least for the duration.

 

I'll throw out a couple ideas that wont matter since Bio will do what they want. I just think they'd work well with how we currently play. Using Sorc terminology to save myself a headache. Also no numbers since people see numbers and go wild lol.

 

Make Resurgence a Instant heal (no HoT) strong enough to notice, maybe bump the CD to 8 seconds. Dark heal could become our new HoT. Dark Infusion down to two second cast and we'd be on par with other healers direct heals.

 

Only thing I can think of that they could do for all 3 specs is change Consumption into a defensive CD that restores some force too. Like I said, small simple changes. I'm fine with being a kite healer, just give me the tools to do it right.

[Khoraji]

I'll throw out a couple ideas that wont matter since Bio will do what they want. I just think they'd work well with how we currently play. Using Sorc terminology to save myself a headache. Also no numbers since people see numbers and go wild lol.

 

Make Resurgence a Instant heal (no HoT) strong enough to notice, maybe bump the CD to 8 seconds. Dark heal could become our new HoT. Dark Infusion down to two second cast and we'd be on par with other healers direct heals.

 

Only thing I can think of that they could do for all 3 specs is change Consumption into a defensive CD that restores some force too. Like I said, small simple changes. I'm fine with being a kite healer, just give me the tools to do it right.

 

A nice instant heal is invaluable and would probably really help you guys. But sorc direct heals should never be on par with merc or even ops unless they give mers/ops an AOE heal that is on par with Sorcs. I dont want all healers to be the same either. There should be a balance of roles. Mercs group heals suck, and should stay that way because our single target heals are great. Sorcs just need a bit more survivability and their group heals would really shine IMO.

[KrackenOne]

Most healers have quit. You'll only find keymashing facerolling derpfiend dps trolls here....

[Annex]

A nice instant heal is invaluable and would probably really help you guys. But sorc direct heals should never be on par with merc or even ops unless they give mers/ops an AOE heal that is on par with Sorcs. I dont want all healers to be the same either. There should be a balance of roles. Mercs group heals suck, and should stay that way because our single target heals are great. Sorcs just need a bit more survivability and their group heals would really shine IMO.

 

Funny thing is, that youve been arguing against "us" the whole time but this is exactly what I think we need too.

 

A minor tweek to either mobility or a def cd to increase the playability of the class.

 

Sorcs shouldnt out burst ops (as they have the highest potential output anyway) but neither should they be the squishiest, least mobile AND the easiest to shut down.

 

All the posts saying L2P just throw outliers around. Yes, some players are utterly exceptional (I dont claim to be because Im not a 15year old with self esteem issues like some people in this thread), however to balance around outliers is tbh, idiotic as anyone with an education can tell you.

 

Using the exception to prove a point is pure stupidity. Balance around the top quartile (even 10%), not the top 0.1%. Its common business sense and will be the reason why when this gets tweeked.

[Darth_Philar]

They will have to keep changing the healing equation for that to happen. Right now im at 1358 expertise which is getting close to 14% healing. If they dont change the formula after every new tier, it will get out of hand fast.

 

If they keep the Expertise itemization the same going forward and simply allow the other stats to increase then they can effectively put a lid on the formula.